The AXIS 4D Coaster Model Construction Forum

[Vekoma Fan Boy]

Jack, please, it is okay to have your opinions, but don't be rude about them, honestly I have some doubts about this, but I still hoping that he can get it done and be the first person in the world to have a working 4-D coaster model. And as for the brakes, Ccron, I would recomend trying little pieces of styrene glued vertically to the track, kinda like people do to slow down Knex trains.

[Corkscrewy]

i wasn't being rude and i didn't say he was using no limits. but he might as well be. because until i see construction its just a computer rendering, hence me saying NL.

 

and the work that hes put into it so far is amazing, i didn't say anything bashing. the drawings are amazing. i'm just worried hes put to much time into the design. its been a year and the design can be changed as much as he wants. but the most important thing is to get a prototype so you know its possible to build.

[Jack Rimer]

Let me state a few things here. I am not trying to bash him for his effort. I think it is a very ambitious project. I am simply saying (rightfully so) that in order for this project to succeed, he must spend less time "designing" and more time "building". I don't see how anyone can argue this point. I don't see how you can design a ride if you don't even know the coefficient of friction of the train. How do you know how high to make the hills?

My advice: build a train and a section of track. Start there. Things will go much easier if you do this.

[coasterJunkie94]

^Hmmm. So Intamin Just Started Building Kingda Ka then Design it!

Dude Cosidering you've only been on here for a day and a half you should respect him and state your opinion in a Nice and Kind Manner

dont tell him what to do let him do it himself Personely I think hes oing a great job! You dont start anything with out thinking about it! and he is a smart guy he can figure it out on his own! I would be Careful before Wes

put a Big A$$ Ban on you!

[Jack Rimer]

^Hmmm. So Intamin Just Started Building Kingda Ka then Design it!

Dude Cosidering you've only been on here for a day and a half you should respect him and state your opinion in a Nice and Kind Manner

dont tell him what to do let him do it himself Personely I think hes oing a great job! You dont start anything with out thinking about it! and he is a smart guy he can figure it out on his own! I would be Careful before Wes

put a Big A$$ Ban on you!

 

Noooo, but I bet they knew the coefficient of friction before they began. And I would venture a guess that their working drawings consisted of a little more than pencil sketches.

Why does the fact that I only have a few posts make me any less credible? Can someone please address what I have said and tell me where I am wrong?

[coasterJunkie94]

^Hmmm. So Intamin Just Started Building Kingda Ka then Design it!

Dude Cosidering you've only been on here for a day and a half you should respect him and state your opinion in a Nice and Kind Manner

dont tell him what to do let him do it himself Personely I think hes oing a great job! You dont start anything with out thinking about it! and he is a smart guy he can figure it out on his own! I would be Careful before Wes

put a Big A$$ Ban on you!

 

Noooo, but I bet they knew the coefficient of friction before they began. And I would venture a guess that their working drawings consisted of a little more than pencil sketches.

Why does the fact that I only have a few posts make me any less credible? Can someone please address what I have said and tell me where I am wrong?

 

OK Ok Sorry Sorry... But you have to realize hes not making a full scale ride in his back yard! A Pencil Sketch was used to make Magnum but anyway your not gonna get banned we just think that you should just state your opinion and let him do his thing!

[Gav]

I think that CCcron10 can get this project done, his secondary school graduation is depending on it!

 

But Jack Rimer rasies some good points about the whole process however.

The train is the most important part in all this, and ages ago I suggested that the train design should be done ahead of the track layout.

 

Its all well and good to design a cool layout and model it in Inventor, but if your train cant even make it around the track (from running out of kinetic energy, not being able to negotiate the turns, or simply because they cant handle the load and break apart) then you are back to square one and you will have to redo the whole layout.

Design the layout around the train, not the train around the layout.

 

Its a bit different to a real coaster since for the wheels etc you will be using unique stuff from a variety of places that will take a bit of experimenting to make it all work. On a real coaster they have plenty of performance data on all the components (and they are standardised a bit more) so they can work out how it will behave in the real world, and since it is on a larger scale the minute details are easier to do. Proper engineering calculations help too

 

When you do a model coaster everything is tiny which means errors have a far bigger impact. a 1mm error in this would be like a 5cm error in real life

My suggestion to you is to stop work on the track layout modelling and save it for now, and just tackle those trains instead. You are going to have to do them eventually, so why put it off?

Once you have built a working model then perhaps build a short test track so you can see how nicley the train rolls.

AND THEN do the layout based on your observations.

Hmmm. So Intamin Just Started Building Kingda Ka then Design it!

No, before doing a layout with a 140m top hat they probably would have made sure that the launch system could even do something that big. And THEN they would have made a layout based around the capabilites of the launch system.

I remember ages ago seeing a vid of Arrows 4-D prototype, before they had even built X, they had a straight test track at the factory with a 2 car train that they tested out the seat flipping system.

Notice they didnt just go and design and build X, and then go "hmmm, how do i make a train that can get around this circuit)

 

Even with Intamins Ball coaster they built a tiny little test rig before selling any full scale versions of the ride

http://www.coastersandmore.com/pic/eas06/ballcoaster6g.jpg

 

Its a bit more OK to experiment building train designs for a model since it isnt costing millions of $$ as it would for a real coaster.

 

But yeah, do those trains first.

[Jack Rimer]

Some important questions that can be answered by mocking up a train and section of track:

1) What are the efficiency numbers of my train?

2) What will I use for wheels?

3) How do I limit the yaw movement of the lead car while still allowing rotational movement?

4) How do I couple the cars?

5) What will be the distance between the cars needed to allow proper articulation?

6) Given the extreme width of the train, what will be the minimum radius it can negotiate?

7) What oil should I use in the wheels?

8 ) Will it attack the styrene rails?

9) What effect will the rail connections being every 12" have on the train's efficiency?

10) Is it even possible to have a train that will rotate in the 4th dimension without the added friction slowing it down?

 

The trickiest part is getting a train that is free enough to drop from, say 36" and climb back up to at least 30". If you can do this, you will be well on your way.

[coasterJunkie94]

He Might not Post ALL the Details

[arrowfanman]

The general concept of WHAT you are making should be secondary to HOW you will make it.

 

This is really the smartest thing said in the ENTIRE thread.

 

 

 

I havn't ever built a model. But I've tried. I've actually stopped fussing with rediculous design programs, got up, walked into a hobby shop and hardware store, purchased supplies, and began to assemble something. I'm actually rather proud of the single log-flume lift hill structure I was able to complete--that's right...a lift was all I was able to complete before losing time, interest, and money.

 

But what I did complete taught me so much that no paper, protractor, or CAD could do.

 

 

 

I dont think Jack is dooming him to failure. I think by not heeding Jack's keen advice, he has doomed himself to failure.

 

-Jahan

[Wes]

^Not trying to be rude but you need to shut the F%^& up.

 

Well that WAS rude. This guy is bringing up a perfectly valid point. I haven't paid attention to the model, but it really looks like not much has been done in actually constructing it and making it work. Doing a CAD drawing and stuff is neat and all, but it seems more important to at least make a demo of a real thing to make sure it actually works at all.

[RaptorBoyASU]

Dude, it's called prototyping. Prove that your car and track concept work early on in the project, before designing anything else. You're going at this really backwards.

 

I don't think this will ever happen, unless you take the guys advice and see how things will really work before progressing any further.

 

-Kyle "Prototyping is an important part of engineering" Miller

[Ccron10]

I've done some thinking and I think you guys are all right.

 

I'm going to do some concept drawings right now on the trains and put some of my ideas on paper. I also have to confess that I didn't really post all of my ideas and details on the whole project. Here are some...

 

-If the model doesn't actually work as in going around the whole track, It still wouldn't be a problem. I will still have info on how this was built and the process it took. I'll try to post the rules on this project soon.

 

- I think I'll design a 3 ft. long, flat piece of track (or should I add a hill?) along with a train. I'll get to work on this.

 

Rimer, I guess I was a little defensive on the project and couldn't face the fact that if I didn't really think about the trains and a prototype, it wouldn't happen.

 

I'll work on this project a little more and hope to not let anyone down, 'cause lets face it, letting, so far, 22 pages of posting would be a very terrible thing to do.

[bblfgrd]

- I think I'll design a 3 ft. long, flat piece of track (or should I add a hill?) along with a train. I'll get to work on this.

.

 

Just from looking over this topic I think this is one of the best ideas you have had yet. I think that a straight track prototype would give you a good indication about the efficiency and seat rotation of your train. I remember seeing the prototype for X which more or less was a straight track that had a small hill to test just these things. Good luck with the project and I hope the train works out for ya...it's quite an undertaking.

[RaptorBoyASU]

Good choice. Even the coaster companies do prototyping.

 

A good example

[Jack Rimer]

Straight track might be fine, but I would make a small valley ( almost like the old Arrow shuttle loops). This way you can also have some practice bending the rails and testing to see if the 4th dimension rails create too much friction. The best thing to do is drop the train and see how many times it goes back and forth and how quickly it slows down. A typical CoasterDynamix train will go back and forth 25-35 times in a valley. This is a good reference point since these are the most efficient scale trains on the market. My opinion would be to leave off the rails for the 4th dimension effect. Just run that style train on a regular track. It will introduce waaayyyy too much friction on small, lightweight model trains.

[Ccron10]

I eliminated the 4th dimension rails a little while back, so I guess it was a good move. The seats are going to spin freely just like on an Intamin Ball coaster, wait a minute, this could be considered a ball coaster, execpt it's not launched.

 

I was thinking maybe steel wire might be an alternative to the plastruct if it was smooth. Also, What I can I use for wheels? Wouldn't the wheels used for the CoasterDynamix trains work?

[Moose]

Good choice. Even the coaster companies do prototyping.

 

A good example

 

egad i cannot imagine going through a corkscrew on a suspended.

 

 

 

THe fact that you don't know what wheels to use only proves the point that this step is needed now. I have no idea on what to use. sorry i can't be more helpful.

[Vffreak07]

You should make something like that. ^

[Jack Rimer]

I eliminated the 4th dimension rails a little while back, so I guess it was a good move. The seats are going to spin freely just like on an Intamin Ball coaster, wait a minute, this could be considered a ball coaster, execpt it's not launched.

 

I was thinking maybe steel wire might be an alternative to the plastruct if it was smooth. Also, What I can I use for wheels? Wouldn't the wheels used for the CoasterDynamix trains work?

 

The CoasterDynamix wheels have to be used on their trains. They are pin friction and rely on the molded Delrin captures to achieve their efficiency. Bearings will work, but you must take out the grease and replace it with a light lubricant. They are also somewhat inconsistent unless you buy really expensive ones. These are the only two options I know of.

[coasterJunkie94]

If I Remeber Correctly i think Brad Tells you how to make wheels on here!

http://www.angelfire.com/oh4/tk173/modelsmenuindex.html

[Ccron10]

^Thanks, that should be some help for me. This afternoon I drew up some sketches for the cars and a sideview sketch of the prototype. I had a little trouble drawing the seats and instead of restraints, I decided to do safety harnesses instead like the ones you use in parachuting.

 

The cars feature 2 brake fins, but after just thinking of the problems of slowing the cars down to much, there's only going to be 1 per a car. The chain dog is going to be like the kind on the K'nex coasters. I think I might use ball bearings, I'll see what I can do by making them in the metal shop at school or ordering them.

 

The body is simple, nothing fancy. The front is curved and the body is going to be plastic and the frame's going to be wood. There are going to be 4 pins holding the body to the frame.

 

edit: Sorry for the chicken sketch.

Axis train concept sketch

Prototype sideview concept sketch.

The height is 12in (1ft) and it's 2ft long.

[coasterJunkie94]

Thats Awesome

Remeber that Magnum was made with paper Plans!

[Ccron10]

I'm almost finished building the prototype on Inventor. The supports, platform, and track have been designed. All that I need to do is add the track to the drawing, insert the ties that connect the spine with the track and start work on designing the cars. After this is done, work on the actual building on the prototype and trains will begin!

 

Do you guys have a link on where to find these expensive coaster model wheels?

[Jack Rimer]

Here I go again, but..... to be honest, it is just as easy to just build the prototype instead of doing it in Inventor. You will learn so much more about the materials and how easily they conform to the shapes you want. In fact, you may design something in Inventor that cannot be easily modeled with the materials you have in mind. Like I said before, let the actual model dictate where you go with this. I suspect that the building of the model is unfamiliar territory for you, but working on the computer designing it is a more comfortable way to approach this. At some point you will have to let go of the virtual constraints and just start building.

 

Personally, I would weigh the costs of scratchbuilding such a large and complicated model with using an existing modeling system like Knex or CoasterDynamix. In my experience, a model of this size would cost upwards of $2000 to reproduce at the least. The bearings alone will run over $100. Think about it. For example, with something like CoasterDynamix, you could build a realistic model, then go back in Inventor and reverse-engineer all the drawings to conform to the design of the ride. You could wrap up the project in record time and impress your teachers all at once!