OldJJman

Nice pics Ledgy!! Very cool!

You forgot women's breasts!!

Ya know, this thread has amused me to no end. I remember seeing the pics when they were first posted. I thought that they were nice. Granted, I'm NOT a great photographer like Hanno, or Dan. I have been told I have a good eye, and that I do take good pictures. But I don't have the talent or equipment to take GREAT pics. Nor, do I want to. Sometimes I get lucky. (See Below) I know I have somewhere over 5,000 pics on TPR. Big deal. People have only wanted copies of my stitches anyway. I also think that no one really takes more abuse on this site than I do (Well, maybe Chris) Big deal. Get some thicker skin. JJ (Awaiting all the "leather skin jokes now.) One of my favorite pictures ever that I actually took.

I like that!!

Boy, have I missed this thread!!

I second that!!! Absofreakinglutely NOT!!!

Very cool! Thanks for the pix! The one thing I remember the most about this park was Elissa and I had to take a "defensive riding class" before riding the SLC! It was quite funny actually! JJ

I have to pretty much agree with Robb's criteria assessment so far. Another word to use, as opposed to "rare" would be "elusive". I have ridden "Mad Mouse" at J's, but I really wouldn't call that rare, but elusive for most people. It was a hell of a long way out of the way to ride it! But, what about ..... Vertigo at Walibi World? JJ (score one for the old fart!)

I'll take a stab at this one. For me (noting that others with high counts may feel different) it brings up a word from many years ago on a usenet newsgroup (rec-rollercoaster) that surfaced: anticipointment. As we have followed construction of many coasters throughout the years, many have looked: really good, "top ten material", "potential #1", etc... Then you get there, ride it, and sometimes go - WTF? This is even after many who did ride it proclaimed it: "my new #1", best coaster ever, greatest thing since sliced bread... A lot of it has to do with individual preferences. Me? I prefer a great wooden coaster. But, even in a steel coaster I still look for basically the same thing. Changes in direction, laterals, positive G's, airtime, speed and pretty much in that order. I know that both Robb and Elissa have strong preferences that lean towards having airtime at the top. When we were there on media day for Goliath (SFMM), it looked awesome. World's tallest, fastest coaster (only to be beaten by MF a couple of months later). After Robb's first ride, I distinctly remember him saying "Meh. It feels like a big Schwartzkoph Jet Star." Hard to disagree. As a hardcore enthusiast, who has been on a few coasters, I usually take the "I'll wait until I ride it to make ANY opinion." It may look great, but i'll wait. After riding a couple of times, I'll form an opinion. I'll even have an idea of those here that I know who will like it more, or less than I do, OR one that we'll ALL LOVE. Some examples: "Coaster" at Playland (PNE) - So small, but packs a wallop in every way. A true top tier ride. "Millennium Force" - A glorified (albeit fast) mine train with a descent first drop. "Kawasemi" - Yeah, it looks cool, but it's so damn small!! Can't be all that good! WRONG!! Now we have a thread here on TPR about which parks should get a "Mega-lite"? (A: ALL of them - it kicks all kinds of A$$!) "SOB" - Looked awesome, until you rode it. Anticipointment at it's highest! "Hollywood: RRR" Go back and look at the thread of when they were building it. Has the potential to be the "Greatest coaster ever!" Not. The "non-inverting loop" was cool, but the rest of the ride really sucks. The most classic example I can think of: "Eagle's Fortress" - It's just an Arrow suspended coaster. We *ALL* went in with VERY, VERY LOW expectations. After our first ride, the general consensus (in the best way possible) was "What the hell was that?" Elissa was waiting in the station (holding KT) and absolutely thought that we were kidding when we told her it was AWESOME!! Then she rode it. AWESOME! Getting back to Cheetah Hunt - I'll admit that it looks really cool. I think that the "left-right-left" through the trench may be the most boring part of the ride for me, but, I hope I'm wrong. (Very similar looking to Thunder Dolphin - and that was like "What the hell is that in there for?" BORING!) That would be followed closely by the figure 8 tree top thingy. Again, I hope I'm wrong. I really like the idea of multiple launches. One of my favorite elements anywhere is the second launch on "Speed: The Ride" in Vegas. Don't know exactly why, but I really love it! I will ride it, no doubt. Probably later this year. So, for me, it's safe to say that I like what I see, but I do reserve the right to reserve judgement, so as to avoid any "anticipointment". Besides, it's another credit! JJ

Thanks for posting the pics Nick! I *LOVE* seeing it like that in its' current state!!! (Mostly because I proposed to my EX-wife on that ride!!) And, WOW, talk about irony... I saw this thread, and while I was reading it, I realized that today (1/17) would have been our 24th wedding anniversary. It was ok at MM, and worse, but more interesting with the themeing at Astroworld. Yeah. Let the damn thing rot. It was a crappy ride anyway!! JJ

It's probably just a primer paint to do the testing.

I can hardly wait.... until everyone starts b*itching about how the MF lapbars rachet down on them.

Just remember who's gonna hand you that T-shirt!!! Better practice that butt kissin' Ray!!!!

Wasn't bad. A lot of g's. For the record - Goudurix, ranks FAR lower than "Space 2000" on my steel list.

Not a bad choice! It did provide the total B*tch slap - twice - IIRC. But yeah, bad ride.

Cool. No, you're right. But, it will stop some parents from using a pass as the babysitter way out. Doing that, would potentially mean that on the heavy summer days, regular paying guests may have a more enjoyable day at the park. Happy people may want to spend more money. (Even if the food, etc... is crappy.) Even so, only 4 trips to the park (assuming the $49 idea I tossed out) the pass pays for itself. It's that initial cost, that would make a difference. The thing that got me on this, was that Robb said that the rides, their signature rides, didn't open with the park. There is absolutely no excuse for this. If they can't open with the park, then the SFMM management is making a HUGE "F"-up!! It's far better to have shorter operating hours, with everything open on time, then to let guests in the park to "hurry up and wait" for the rides to open. Even so, that PAYING guest (pass or not) made a concerted effort (and plan) to get there early to be first in line to make their own day enjoyable. Then the debacle with Tatsu. Not fully staffing IS a MAJOR management F-up, of epic proportions. Of course we, as enthusiasts, see that. But, it is so damn blatant, that the GP see it too. We kind of expect things like that to happen, and get miffed. BUT, the GP genuinely get pissed off. Creates a great athmosphere, ya know? When Green Lantern opens to the GP on the first day, DO NOT be surprised if the same type of thing happens. Yes, they'll want their new, shiny toy to be working at full tilt, but what about the rest of the rides?? If past history is ANY indication --don't count on it. JJ

You missed my point completely. Yeah, you're right. The cheapest Disney pass is $184. For one year WITHOUT ANY Saturdays, Sundays, Holidays, Spring Break, Christmas Vacation or days of the Summer. Those are the quote "baby sitting days" I was referring to. Those are the days when parents just drop their kids at the park, and pick them up later to keep them out of their hair. That way the park doesn't become inundated by people with NO money to spend. In the case of SF, by mid summer, I'd say upwards of 65-70% of all gate traffic are SP holders. They may make money on parking, very little on food, and very little on the lame games. The souvenirs are lame at best. In other words, at the beginning of a season, the numbers look great! That's because of the SP that they have sold. By mid-late season, the numbers are severely dwindling as the per person spending had dropped dramatically, as the food remains crap, and priced out of range of the clientele. Disney made that mistake when DCA opened in 2001. The "Premium" pass had jumped from $159 for one park, to $199 for both parks, no blackout dates. Their heaviest days then became madhouses, with huge lines and the average spending per person went way down. Hence, in very short time, Disney realized that they wouldn't "babysit" on it's heaviest days, and structured the current system, so that on their slower days (the only days open to the "California Select" passholders) they could increase their attendance, and make more money at the same time. The Disney "Premium" pass is now $459, yet they still sell quite a few. It's a business, Disney realizes that. Six Flags lost that idea somewhere along the line, as the quality of the food (not to mention the prices) and other offerings that SF, has are lame at best. "Overall quality" includes the whole experience. The look, the cleanliness, THE STAFFING, THE FOOD, etc... Things were making improvements with Jay there, but, it seemed as if he was almost working outside the SF hierarchy. Those changes were coming slowly, and well thought out. Now he's gone. Many, if not all, of the licensing agreements have been dropped or modified. Granted, that may save a substantial chunk of change, but in NO WAY enhances the guest experience. Thomas Town being redone is just a crime. Especially, for those kids that visited it in the past. Perhaps they'd like to go again - oops! They can't. IT'S GONE! Parents now have NO reason to spend their money there, unless they want to disappoint their kids because Thomas and friends moved on. I know many people that won't spend one dime more than the have to at MM, as they just don't like what they have to offer, and what they offer is too damn expensive. Buy a pass, ride the rides, eat somewhere down the street. Lord knows you probably won't get on all the rides, as they only run one train on their coasters, even with the longest lines. We, as enthusiasts, know that this is the off season, but the GP at large doesn't care. They just WANT to have fun, and they will spend money if they feel it is worth it. If you want people to spend money, give them something they'd want to spend money on. JJ

I'm going to agree with Elissa (and others) who have said to raise the season pass price. This "baby sitting" fee is going to create a real hell at the park when it goes to daily operation. When the park doesn't offer much in the way of quality food or souvenirs, (at a reasonable price) the only place to make money is at the turnstile. As it is, most people that go to SFMM know where all the fast food restaurants are in proximity to the park. They just WILL NOT pay for the crap that they are getting. Lower the admission to $49, RAISE the SP price to $189 (or more). It will generate more money over the length over a whole season. Another idea would be to DROP the vending machine drinks to $2.50 from $4. Sure, the profit margin is lower, but they'll make a larger profit in the long run by selling many, many more units. When questioned about this before, SF brass has always said that it needs that high of a price to make a profit. (Of course, that would mean hiring more people at $7-8/hr to empty the trash cans, so maybe that's a BAD idea. ) Makes me wonder how a global corporation like 7-11 can survive by selling drinks for only $1.59. Just baffling. AND... The staffing issue is just deplorable. I would hope that Jay still reads this, and puts in a call to the current leadership and asks "WTF are you doing??" I'm back to despising that place.

Is that the Shamu coaster, from Mitsui (HOTTER THAN HELL) Greenland? Couldn't quite tell from RCDB.

Thanks for the correction! For some reason, I remembered riding DC with Erik (Vekoma engineer) and remember talking to him about Vampire and the changes they made to it, and somehow I associated the two. I guess it was just the open Vekoma cars. Thanks again! JJ

I'll try and add a little credibility here. The following, I believe, is a complete list of the Arrow suspendeds: The Bat - King's Island Big Bad Wolf - BGE * Dream Catcher - Bobbejaanland, I thought this was built by Arrow as Air Race, then modified by Vekoma to become Dream Catcher. (Someone can probably correct me on this, but for now, I'll include it.) EF - Everland Flight Deck - King's Island Hayabusa - Tokyo Summerland Iron Dragon - Cedar Point Ninja - SFMM Vampire - Chessington's World of Adventure Vortex - Canada's Wonderland XLR-8 - Astroworld Having ridden all but 2 of them (Bat and Hayabusa), here's how I would rate them on a school (A-F) scale, and why. The Bat - Didn't ride, as it was closed the one day I was there. Heard ONLY opposite opinions about it, either really good or really bad. No opinion. Big Bad Wolf C+ Nice ride, nice pacing, but the second lift just ruined the fun factor, and brakes on the drop, not good. *Dream Catcher D+ It's a credit. Didn't ride it as "Air Race", but it just took it's sweet time meandering around the course. The open Vekoma trains didn't help. Eagle's Fortress A++ Didn't look like much. Getting off the lift and starting so slowly, it felt like it never stopped accelerating - all the way to the final brakes!! Joey said it best that first ERT, "There's NO WAY that this thing isn't tearing itself apart!! Rides are NOT supposed to do this!! No wonder they're taking it out!" (A side note for those that may not know - I believe that Robb, Elissa or someone else can confirm this - It *WAS* scheduled to be removed after the 2007 season, with T-Express opening in 2008. BUT, after its' ranking in Mitch's poll in 2007, the park decided not to remove it just yet. Unfortunately, that was a short-lived reprieve. ) Flight Deck B Fun ride, beginning to end. Just when it gets interesting, it's over. Too short. Hayabusa Didn't ride. No opinion. Iron Dragon C- They don't call it "Draggin Iron" for no reason! Though I do like how it weaves around the trees. Ninja B- I like the short lift at the beginning, nice swinging action, but the final brakes and lift hill at the end just KILL the experience for me. Vampire (Before Vekoma) C+ Nice station. First half is quite dull, especially getting to the 2nd lift. Nice ending back into the station. (After Vekoma) D The lighter trains absolutely killed the boring first half. It also made the ending quite forgettable. Vortex B- Takes a bit to get up to speed, and just holds it. Again, too short, but a nice layout around the mountain and over the water. XLR-8 D Just slow and boring, both forward and backwards. Reminded me kid rolling a marble back and forth (and back and forth) on one of those wooden labyrinth games, always waiting for something exciting to happen, and it didn't. My two cents - which is usually worthless anyway. JJ

IIRC, the filming sequences on Revolution were done in the fall of 1976, after a full summer season of operation. (Opened in May of 1976) If you look at the track during the movie, it does look fairly worn, especially when the bomb squad guy is wrapping the bunting on the track.

Remember, the beauty of Mitch's poll was that it placed rankings based on "head-to-head" comparisons. You still need to understand that the people that have ridden both, still rank Eagle's Fortress significantly higher than Big Bad Wolf, and MOST EVERY coaster in general. Granted, the ones that have, have traveled very extensively. Robb's closing in on 1500, and it's in his top 5. Elissa's over 1200, and it's in her top 10. Richard Bannister is over 1600, and has it ranked #1 (at least last time I talked to him). George Greenway is over 1700 and has it at #3. Personally, I have it at #2 (I'm at 993). We were so blown away by it on the TPR Southern Japan/Korea in 2007, that when we did the TPR China/Northern Japan trip in 2008, we decided to squeeze in 2 days in Seoul to get the new T-Express credit AND Eagle's Fortress was a big selling point to get us to want us to go back!! (Along with another visit to Lotte World!) Point being, we decided to add 2 days in another country to revisit a park with a great coaster, and a new woodie. And if you're thinking that we went mostly for T-Express, next year's Japan trip isn't making a side trip to China to go ride GCI's new woodie at Knight's Valley (which LOOKS damn awesome!). BBW was a fine ride. Went to BGW (BGE) 3 times (1999, 2002, 2004) and outside of an ERT sessions in 2002, never waited more than 20 minutes for it. My .02 JJ

Nothing new here, except perhaps more fodder for those that want to make the ageist jokes about me. That being said: Back in the early/mid 90's I had seen and gotten a hold of "America's Greatest Coaster Thrills in 3-D", the one coaster that had stood out on my wish list was Big Bad Wolf. I finally made it to BGW in 1999, and I really liked the ride. BUT, having Ninja at one of my home parks, BBW was just a tad better AND worse than Ninja. Better, due to the close proximity of the buildings and worse, due to the stops in the action. I've ridden quite a lot of now "defunct" coasters. Yeah, I'm glad I rode them. But, life goes on. The amusement park industry IS a business driven by the dollar, and positive returns on money invested is the name of the game. The Arrow suspendeds truly ARE a dying breed, and rightly so!! With their age, they've pretty much became "money pits" for each park that they are in. In fact, I *think* I've ridden every Arrow suspended coaster. Each one did have some redeeming qualities, IMO. (Even Iron Dragon.) Will I miss them when they're gone - sure. Will they be replaced with something better?? Who knows? That's up to the park, and the opinions of me, Robb, TPR as a whole, will have very little impact on those corporate decisions. Yes, I miss BBW. But, it is NOT a coaster I would have gone out of my way for to ride again. Very few coasters have that distinction. Eagle's Fortress IS one of them. To quote Dave: and I TOTALLY agree with both of those statements. The ride was simply amazing!! Yeah, Everland gave us night time ERT on an ancient suspended coaster. Whoop-ti-effen-doo! How would 25-30 of us (or however many of us there were) stay on it for more than one courtesy ride?? We had NO idea!! Then we rode it!! Nobody wanted to get off the train!! We came into the station to see Elissa waiting her turn (she was sitting out with KT) and totally thought we were giving her a load of BS!! Yeah, I will miss it, but I'd rather have it gone than to see a makeover. As for the remaining ones, I think it was Eric (EBL) who suggested giving them the Vekoma makeover that Vampire had - HELL NO!! (Sorry Erik P.!) I really thought that Vampire was twice the ride that it is now. Vampire (IMO) is now quite weak, slow and boring. It WAS much better before the makeover! If they've served their purpose, and need to be neutered to continue, then I say "tear 'em down". I'd rather have fond memories, than an emasculated ride. (::coughcough::Revolution::coughcough: My first real "big" coaster was Gold Rusher in 1971. I always give it a courtesy ride when I'm at SFMM. Would I miss it if it was removed - sure. But, time takes it's toll. As for replacing it - Heck, have GCI make a wooden coaster with the exact same layout, and it would probably kick A$$! Things change. Either adapt, or get a new hobby. JJ

Hearing that Eagle's Fortress *IS* scheduled to be demolished. IMO, one of the ALL-TIME greatest rides! Thanks to TPR, I was able to ride it 20+ times. World of Color. While technically brilliant, I didn't want to see an infomercial, and that's exactly what I got. The upsell "picnic" was a total waste of money, crappy food, and still herded to stand and watch a show. Thank goodness for good company!The ONLY redeeming thing was the "TRONcore".Two minutes, really cool, and utilized the area to it's fullest (though I have absolutely NO interest in Tron). I think the only thing missing was a forced exit thru a gift shop. Lame. Lame. Lame. But my biggest disappointment - NOT GETTING A SINGLE NEW CREDIT IN 2010!!!!