RandyV

100%, Grade A Urban Legend. For the record, when The Edge failed at Great America, there was no car crushed at the bottom of the shaft. The car was a little past 1/2 way up and the next car was not in the shaft yet. The three kids had minor injuries (not even any broken bones) and were in and out of the hospital in under a week. The only real visible injury on one of the kids was a black eye. SFGAm is my home park and I followed that story closely when it happened back in '84. After the accident, Intamin added larger anti-rollback brakes in the tower and changed the ride programming on all free falls so the next car didn't enter the shaft until the previous car had completed its run down the track. The change lowered capacity and eliminated a great visual "fear" element. Under the original ride program, one car was going up the shaft while the other was going down. So as you were on your way up, you saw the other car flying down the track right in front of you at what seemed like inches from your face. The new programming, of course, did away with that. The car dropped, then and only then did the next car start up the tower. Back on topic -- The Edge at SFGAm was the first ride I remember that truly scared the crap out of me the first time I rode it. And that's when it was new. After that first ride, first gen Intamin free falls really earned my respect. I can't put my finger on it exactly -- but the experience is just so cool. Something modern towers haven't really matched IMHO. The ride to the top of the tower and seeing all the girders flying by in front of you really gave a sense that you were going way up, then sitting out over the edge for a few seconds just knowing what's coming next -- it hasn't be matched. It's really too bad there are only a few of left, but they were (and still are) pretty harsh rides.

Count me in ... I'm 15 minutes away.

Ron was truly an icon and legend -- the rides we all have enjoyed over the years as well as the great coasters of today and tomorrow owe a huge debt of gratitude to him. I was truly stunned and saddened to read about his passing. Having grown up in the 70s and 80s, Ron's creations are what I grew up riding -- his machines are the creations that made me passionate about coasters. A passion I still have today. His rides inspired me to start taking road trips to see new parks and take on his latest inventions. Rest in peace Ron -- and a heartfelt "thanks for the ride" from all of us. Randy

SFGAm American Eagle back in 1981 when it first opened. 3 - 4 hour wait, but at least it was in the shade.

I'm almost 41 and have found that coasters get to me now like never before. I don't have stomach issues, but grey-out problems. Similar to others who have commented, I used to be able to hit the rides hard all day long, but in the last year things have definitely changed for the worse for me. And it's odd because I haven't been able to pinpoint exactly what the cause is. For example, on a recent trip to Vegas, my daughter and I rode Manhattan Express back to back to back about 10 times. She gave up before I did. Later in the week we rode Speed: The Ride three or four times in a row. Again, no problems what so ever. Then we went over to the Circus Circus Adventuredome and rode Canyon Blaster (no Arrow head bang jokes, please -- CB is pretty smooth IMHO). On the second or third ride I almost passed out on the first drop and it stopped me from riding it or anything else the rest of the day. SFGAm was my home park for years and I've rode the Demon, which is extremely close in layout to Canyon Blaster, hundreds of times and never once had an issue. Speed has a loop (forward and backwards) and Manhattan Express has a few not so smooth upside down moments which I handled fine. I've no idea why Canyon Blaster got to me the way it did. Similarly -- on a trip to IOA last year my daughter and I rode Dragon Challenge (ice side) and the second row ride made me dizzy. However -- riding in the front was perfectly fine so we just waiting to get the front and were able to ride it 5 or 6 times consecutively without a problem. All I can say is that getting old sucks. I definitely approach coasters a lot differently than I used to. I'm honestly not sure I could do hypers like Intimidator 305 for fear of returning to the station unconscious.

Wow -- SDC has certainly changed in the last 30 years since I've been there. Looks like a lot of fun.

By far the best movie night in years.

He didn't - but one could easily imply from statements in his first post that he is arguing BBW was not a good ride because it's "not-even-a-top-100-coaster" and "[he is] not sure [he] ever once heard someone say that ride would have been a dealbreaker for going to that park." Simple statements that could be interpreted several ways. I'm not Robb but I think his point is simply that BBW was an old ride and in the eyes of the general public not a popular ride. I think that's a fair assessment. People didn't raise a fuss until BG announced the ride was going away. This whole thing reminds me of when SFGAm announced they were going to get rid of the Whizzer about 5 years back. The Whizzer is the last operating Schawrzkopf Speedracer in the US and one of only two left in the world. The circumstances were similar. High maintenance, not a popular ride, etc. However, the public outcry was huge and the ride stands today (ironically, the first Arrow mega-looper Shockwave got the axe). The Speedracer is closer to death than the Arrow suspended, but both are nearing extinction. I'm personally waiting for Robb to start the "Let's be honest here ... Flashback (SFMM) wasn't THAT amazing ..." thread.

The 2010 highlight for me was taking my 9 year old daughter (who is finally tall enough) on her first B&M inverted -- Dragon Challenge at IOA. She also easily (and willingly) tackled Hulk multiple times (once in the rain no less - OUCH). That, and taking her to Wizarding World at IOA in general was a true thrill. You really get a different perspective on parks like IOA when you go with a kid.

Love the pictures of GASM. Arrow was at the forefront back in those days. This picture must have been early on as the top of the loops were not re-enforced yet. As always, thanks for sharing this stuff!

BBW is/was not amazing judged against what we have today -- nothing is or ever will be. It's simply an unfair assessment to make. I think the word "amazing" is being applied in a retrospective manner versus a comparison to current coasters. Is an Intamin giant drop better than a first gen Free Fall? Is a modern launch coaster better than the original Schwarzkopf shuttle loop? Of course. Any modern ride will always be judged better than things built 20 years ago. It applies to everything. First gen Free Falls were "amazing" in my book (the first ride I remember scaring the crap out of me the first time I rode it) but they certainly aren't "amazing" compared to the towers of today. IMHO, this whole thing is less about BBW being amazing than it is about BBW being unique. Yes, EF was a better suspended, but really, how many average people would make the trek to South Korea to experience that? Not exactly your standard family vacation (unless you're Robb ). What really sucks about BBW being gone is that it's a piece of history lost. Arrow suspended were cutting edge in their day and sooner or later all we'll have to remember them by are pictures and memories. What's more disappointing about BBW going away is that something not-so-unique will probably replace it. Will we get another B&M? Let's face it, B&Ms (any flavor) are getting cliche. They're everywhere and they are all offer just about the same experience. About the only thing they could put in and be worthwhile is a 4th Dimension and we all know the probability of that happening. So -- BBW was not amazing. Ninja is not amazing. Iron Dragon is seriously not amazing. However, Arrow suspended coasters are a rapidly vanishing breed. And while not the most "amazing" rides on the planet, Arrow suspendeds were cutting edge for their day. BBW would have been worth keeping around for future generations to enjoy.

Never been sick on a coaster or after a coaster but within the last few years I find myself a little more susceptible to grey outs on some hyper coasters. I was feeling a little uncertain while boarding a train on Hulk at IOA recently, but then realized I'd been riding all day in 100' heat without drinking any water. The family and I did a major CA park trip a few years ago and by day 7 we were all pretty much done being turned upside down and every which way...

I'll have to put my vote in for either an S&S Screamin' Swing or KMG/Tivoli Spin Out. Randy

Hands down - The Boss at SFStL. Regrettably, the first coaster I rode the day I was there. Thinking there were better seats, I foolishly rode again. What a waste of wood. First runner up -- any Vekoma inverted coaster. Randy

Locals please chime in! I know this is an impossible quesiton to answer -- but with next weekend being the last hoorah for GASM, have the crowds or lines been longer since they made the announcement? I'm thinknig about making the trek to GADV next weekend to get the credit for GASM, since it's the only one of the three Arrow triplets I've not been on (SFGAM is my original home park, and I rode Shockwave several times before they demolished it, and I've been to SFMM for Viper over the years). Having missed out riding Shockwave before it went away, GASM is the next closest thing and once it's gone, there will never be anything else like it ever again.

Oh man -- I swear, I have this exact same episode of ET on video tape stashed somewhere in a box for the same reason you have it - coasters at Magic Mountain. This was definitely the mid-80s at its best. Funny that the American Eagle at Great America (my home park) was still the tallest when this aired. The Eagle opened in '81 and its hard to believe it held the title of tallest coaster for so many years - especially given the recent decade of coaster wars where holding any kind of title (height, speed, etc.) for more than one year was a feat. Thanks for digging this one up and posting. It really brought back some memories.

Ugh -- I obviously wasn't thinking in my earlier post. When I referred to "a lesser B&M" when talking about Silver Bullet -- I meant say Vortex at CGA, not Medusa. Medusa is a freakin' great coaster at SFDK. Also, I wasn't referring specifically to B&M inverts, just B&M's in general. I don't think Vortex at CGA is all that great, and is arguably one of the roughest and most boring B&M's I've ever been on. My point was this: what if Vortex had been built at Knott's instead of Silver Bullet? Instead of talking about the SB dominating the area of the park & the skyline, would we be talking about what a lousy coaster it is and how much better they could have done? All hypothetically, of course. And as someone else pointed out, apparently I can't do math either. Montezuma's Revenge at Knott's is 31 years old, not 20. That's what happens when you get old. If a 31 year old coaster like Montezua's can still provide a great ride after all this time, why can't a 26 year old 1st gen free fall do the same? Shouldn't we be talking about how crappy Montezuma's is and why Knott's isn't ripping that out to replace it with something new? Or does Montezuma's get a pass because it's been there so long? My original question still stands and is yet to be answered: what should Knott's/CF be doing to keep guests coming back year after year while maintaining the atmosphere and feel that everyone wants? If they can't build new rides/coasters without wrecking the view or atmosphere, or if people aren't happy with them bringing in other rides from other parks (ala Demon Drop) -- then what are they supposed to do? New variety shows certainly won't cut it.

I'm not local to Knott's but have been there a few times over the years, most recently in April/May with my family. I thought the park was great. A decent mix of flat rides and coasters, and still a decent amount of theming to give the park some "feel." My daughter couldn't get enough of Montezuma's Revenge -- a 20 year old Schwartzkopf shuttle! I understand people being ticked about Demon Drop being the "new" attraction, but I've not read anywhere here what people would expect CF or Knott's to do in it's place. Everyone's complaining about Silver Bullet -- so would you all prefer it not be there? What if they built a lesser B&M (Medusa at CGA comes to mind) -- then would we be complaining that they didn't go far enough? People are complaining about Pony Express being lame. What attractions could Knott's/CF bring to the table to keep people excited and lining up to come to the park? At the end of the day, it's about getting people in the park to spend money and major thrill rides, like it or not, are the way it gets done. There does not seem to be a lot of real-estate to work with, and as someone pointed out, the park must evolve to keep guests coming through the turnstiles. Coasters are the obvious choice. Yes, Disney hasn't done it with coasters, but Disney is such a different animal that I don't think you can fairly compare them to a Six Flags/Cedar Fair operation. Disney could paint a monorail a different color and boost attendance. I'm probably in the minority of people who are really happy to see CF keeping Demon Drop going and I will definitely make plans to go back to Knott's next year to ride it. It has some historical significance to me in that it's only of three of these types of rides left on the planet. It's a small footprint and gives a ride experience 2nd gen drop rides can't give. Yeah, it's noisy, mechanically finicky -- but the thrill factor is high IMHO. At some point all park operators are going to have figure out some other way to get guests in the door. The coaster wars of the 90s and early 2000 that brought us hyper and giga-coasters, launch coasters, etc. have to be about over. Building a bigger mouse trap won't do and most places just don't have the space to keep building bigger and bigger and bigger rides. Using B&M inverteds as an example -- it's to the point where one B&M inverted isn't too much different than the next one. That was my first thought when I rode Silver Bullet. It was a "nice" B&M, but I can't say I was thrilled by it. Back to Knott's -- I think the park is in fine shape overall. I've seen my home park (Great America in Illinois) destroyed from a theme standpoint over the years. The park looks likes something out of RCT3 these days. At some point you just have to accept that change is going to happen and the parks are going to do whatever they think they need to do to keep the money coming in. Sorry to ramble all over the place. Here's to Demon Drop at KBF in 2010. May she give us many more years of "the longest 2 and a half seconds in the world."

Again, sorry to throw Great America stuff in a KBF thread, but on another forum we were having a discussion about this. All anyone remembers is that the ride was in the boneyard and was carted off in pieces one day. I have to believe they sold off the parts to CF or some other 1st gen operator. Randy

Sorry to throw this into the Knott's thread, but yes, you are mistaken about The Edge accident. The mis-information about this ride is amusement park legend. Great America in Illinois was my home park and I followed this story very closely when it happened. The Edge accident occurred back in 1984 at Great America in Gurnee. The ride stopped while one car was 1/2 to 2/3 the way up the shaft. The original ride programming had the car in the shaft starting its ascent as soon as the car at the top was released for its decent. It was a cool effect because as you were going up the shaft you got to see the other car flying down the track in front of you, giving you some sense of what you were about to experience. The official story is that the ride control system detected the car that had just descended was going too fast, causing a shutdown. The other car, in the mean time, was already on its way up the shaft. When ride ops restarted the ride, something broke causing the car in the shaft to fall. It was raining at the time, and the reports were that the anti-rollbacks were wet and were deemed too small to be able stop the car completely. The car that fell did not crush another car and nobody was killed. The three teens in the car that fell were taken to a local hospital for minor abdominal injuries/pain and were released two or three days later. That was it. One of the teens had a black eye which the only visible evidence that anything had happened to them. Based on the accident, all free falls were reprogrammed so that the car in the shaft does not start its ascent until the previous car has completed its descent. This allows the rcs time to assess what was going on with the previous run and if a shutdown were necessary, the next car would be sitting at the bottom of the shaft instead of being up in the tower. The number of anti-rollbacks in the tower was doubled and were made larger. If you've been on Demon Drop or any other 1st gen free fall, they have all operated this way since 1985. Great America was sold to Six Flags in 1984 and The Edge was sold the year after the accident. It went from Great America to Rocky Point and finally to Geauga Lake, where it was ultimately scrapped at the end of 2005. From what I've read over the years, the Gurnee freefall ride was always plagued with operational and mechanical problems until the very end of its life. The maintenance team at Geauga Lake apparently did a lot of work to straighten out things with the ride and it ran well for its last few years. Too bad, really. I for one am happy to see Cedar Fair keeping Demon Drop around. Kind of like Montezuma's. It's old, but worth it.

Dragged the family on a tour of big parks in CA earlier this year: DisneyLand DCA Knott's Berry Farm Magic Mountain Discovery Kingdom California's Great America

The vid Sir Clinksalot posted is the most plausible explanation. For what I understand about monorail operations, it sounds like Central screwed up badly. It sonds like they gave the approval for pink to proceed backwards into an occupied concourse. Does anyone know if monorail communications are recorded and/or if there is data logging on the trains?

I'm right there with you, Robb. Unfortunately, and we all know it, that same lack of concern for anyone else goes well beyond this tragedy. Makes you wonder what kind of world our kids will end up, but that's an entirely different thread.

Don't disagree with you. Unfortunately, in the heat of the moment, most people wouldn't stop to think about what they are about to do even if they are trying to help. I give the people who at least showed the concern for the pilot a lot of credit and I'm thankful nobody else was injured either in the collision or afterward trying to help out. As for the guy shooting the video, well, he's got his own demons to deal with.

The video or one of the pictures (haven't looked since this morning) show the buttons by the door of monorail purple still lit after the accident, so there was still power to the train. That AC power for the lights and AC is picked up from the DC rail. A later picture showed the buttons were dark, but I don't know why that would be -- I'm just an observer.