goatdan

Maybe I've been told incorrectly by others, but I have been told chains make deals to buy packages of rides, but they always do so for one year at a time. I tend to believe it to be true, because unless they already know what the 10 coasters are going to be, how can they make a deal for them? When Wicked Twister was built, King's Island was a Paramount Park, and years from changing hands. There is no way that Cedar Fair could have made a deal to purchase a coaster for King's Island since they didn't know they would be running the parks.

Although I haven't been there for a few years, I always thought this was different at least with Great America. Their operations team is really good and quick usually. When I have been there on slow, early June dates, they never go below two trains on the bigger rides if more are available, and they don't section off rows. Cedar Point I was too on a really slow day (wow, nearly 10 years ago now), and they sectioned off larger portions of their rides to make sure there was a line. I asked someone who worked there in management about it, and he told me the idea was you always wanted a little line so people would stay in the park longer and want to buy more stuff. Admitedly, I don't know if that is true or if it is still the policy, but Cedar Point running really quickly was about equally as fast with operations themselves as Great America was. The rest of the Six Flags chain I would tend to agree with you on. I wonder if the unseasonably long cold has something to do with so many issues. Unless this is something that has been happening for a few years now, everyone who I know who has gone to Great America early in the year has been impressed by just how ready they have been.

The rotational roughness is less tolerant to changes because unlike the wheels on the top / bottom of the trace as they go flipping around, the movement of the third rail controlling the rotation is independent of gravity. To try to explain, think of it like this... Move rides put pressure downward the majority of the time - which makes sense, because that is where gravity pulls you. "Ejector air" is essentially what happens when a train changes from riding on the wheels on the top of the train to the wheels on the bottom, and it is relatively rare. So, what you have with older rides is that 95%+ of their time is spend on the top wheels of the ride, so the variances in the track - which happen gradually over time, it isn't like the track is going up and down an inch every foot or two - mostly don't affect it. A ride like X where the train is flipping over to exert pressure on both sets of wheels, even with a decent amount of variance, wouldn't by itself become a totally rough monster. The transitions would be relatively smooth, and even a half-inch variance in flipping from wheel to wheel at 60 mph would not be enough to send a major jolt through the ride, especially because the direction of travel itself remains unchanged. The rail tolerance in old Arrow rides (and many others, it isn't just Arrow) is not the issue that a lot of them got so rough. That has more to do with their design then anything else... but on a ride like a 4D coaster, where the ride has a rail that is moving riders in a non-traditional way means that the forces of gravity and direction change are totally re-written... and it could make the ride a horrible mess. Random fact - In the realm of "how bad Arrow designs used to be," I was once told and have not been proven wrong that with the exception of ONE coaster, all of Arrow's corkscrews went in the exact same direction. I haven't found any proof that this is wrong. It explains some of the jolty-ness of their rides though because they drop into the corkscrews and put a ton of pressure on the inside running wheels instead of on the top wheels where it belongs. Both Demon rides are perfect examples of this - if the corkscrew element went the other way, the ride would enter them with the pressure being on the top wheels. Instead, they enter them "backwards" and give the riders a side-to-side jolt as the train changes direction. Okay, seriously - someone want to start a thread about this? Back on the topic of the full park, does YOLO have any interactions with other rides? I can't seem to wrap my head around what the layout is exactly, and if it is going under or over other stuff. Anyone have a picture from the observation tower?

No problem. It was an absolutely tiny detail, and I have no knowledge if they were on the first day... just that they definitely were there, as I hope people can trust with that battery picture is true

Heh, maybe we should take this to a private message or different thread about "What is up with 4D coasters?" so I'll keep this short because I feel like I hijacked a thread accidentally to theorize about this, but... I believe Dinoconda doesn't have sound. If that is the case, that train has no power, and a mech like this would really need power to function. It could be done, but it would be a LOT more costly then just designing the rail to force the rocking from the beginning, which would have been how Dinoconda would have been designed - any moving part is infinitely more breakable. I also have managed to see X2's trains up close, and I didn't see anything that would have been able to perform the function of locking the train more to the spin bar or whatever it is called at a certain point. This is all the stuff that I find so fascinating about this ride - the design of it is just so strangely done that unlike nearly everything else where you can usually figure out what the designers did that went wrong, looking at X2 there just seems to be magical stuff that happens that makes it as rough as it is. It's why X2 is at the top of my list - I find rides with design flaws or strange decisions utterly fascinating. Edit: And now, I'll stop posting about X2 here, I don't want to derail the Magic Mountain thread with a ton more semi-interesting at best theorizing on ride issues I ultimately know basically nothing about... but I would be happy to continue in a thread dedicate to it

It wouldn't work the same, because the swaying motion would be an up / down motion on the train, not the twisting motion back and forth. That twist itself doesn't make the forces that are acting on the train any less rigid, as the forces on the train are still pushing up and down on the same bars where the train connects. I hope that makes sense, it's hard to explain. What this post is referring to with rail tolerance is the difference between where the rail *should* be, and where the rail *actually* is. The short version of this is that back when they started making steel coasters, it was both extremely difficult to perfectly weld a track together at the exact right sizes, and so designers expected some "play" in the track where the rails might get further apart, closer together, larger, smaller, or whatever. A certain tolerance of this was expected from the rides. Today, with vastly improved manufacturing processes and an understanding of exactly how that tolerance affect the overall ride performance, manufacturers have been working to eliminate all of the tolerance and have it much lower. I think I have it in storage still, but I had some early Arrow promotional materials where they claimed that they were able to reduce their rail tolerance to something like an inch, which meant that there could be at any moment an extra inch of side-to-side or up-and-down movement. B&M came on the scene boasting a significantly improved tolerance that contributed to their smoother rides, as did the design of their carriages. The point of all of this simply being - if the 4th Dimension coasters were designed with too much tolerance (or "slop") on that third rail, then that would definitely be a contributing factor to the roughness of the ride experience... however, looking at how the ride performed with the original trains versus the new ones with just the run out to the lift exhibiting that with shake thing on the new trains and the lift being the same, it really makes one wonder what is causing it. To see how different it can be, next time you are riding an Arrow, look at the wheel that runs alongside the bottom of the track, and you'll see that rarely do these touch the rail, oftentimes they won't even turn with the ride because the pressure is on the top wheels. It's often the most pronounced when an Arrow train starts it's ascent up the lift, and the chain will lift the ride off the track so you'll get a lifting up and setting down of the train where you can feel it bumping the uplift wheels and then returning back on. The older the ride, the more pronounced it tends to be, and the best example that I can think of is probably the Demon at Great America, or the Corkscrew at Michigan's Adventure. Theoretically, that tolerance wasn't a huge issue because the wheels where more than wide enough to handle it, and the pressure of the ride meant that the running wheels were where the ride spent almost all of it's time, and the changes in which wheels would be touching wouldn't be too bad... but with a ride system like the 4th Dimension Coaster, where a 1 inch tolerance is a 10 degree difference, it would make a huge difference... Although again, that doesn't appear to be the issue here based on that original ride footage. Weird stuff.

^ Yeah... but as you said, if the rail hasn't changed, then how could they control the rocking like that? It would have to be an intentional design, and if you did it there, it would work for everywhere in the entire ride the same. The other thing that it could be is that maybe the wheels were "tightened up" and whereas before the ride didn't wiggle because the "rotation wheels" (or whatever they are called) weren't making enough contact, and now that they are they make the ride wiggle, in which case it's essentially the ride telling you "this is how much slop is in our guide rail, get ready!" But that doesn't make sense either, because then you should see it wiggle throughout the entire lift... Hmmm... I don't know. I'm into meaningless speculation territory now, so if anyone else has any ideas, I'd love to hear them. Stuff like this is what really fascinates me about rides.

That is *fascinating* and blows my theory out of the water. If it was intentional, that is an extremely weird decision, as any movement / vibration causes wear and discomfort... Having said that, in that original X video you can see the Arrow design as they rotate back not smoothly, but by a bunch at a time

Yeah, I know. But S&S bought Arrow or reverse merged with them or whatever it was, so it's sort of the same difference to me... and when you get new rolling stock, you can't work around what was done with the trains. I don't know when / if I'll ever get on it. I was last at Magic Mountain when the train change-over was going on... darn it.

^ ^ I haven't been on X or any of it's clones, but I think that the free rotation issue that you're mentioning is the exact issue. Watching the Dinoconda video, a full 360 degree rotation appears to be about three feet on the guide rail thing. Using simple math, that makes each inch 10 degrees of rotation, and since that rotation is at the center of your body with your head and legs the furthest away from it, even minor variances will cause pretty extreme issues. On top of that, Arrow was never real known for making their trains tight to the track the way B&M and Intamin do. Look at the upstop wheels on the next arrow you go on, and in general they are not touching the track by a quarter inch or so. If there is even a quarter inch of play in that section, any time there is a change in the way the ride's forces make it want to go versus how it is going, you'll get a violent reaction. My relatively uninformed guess is that you've got a situation where the wheels aren't tight, that nasty raven turn has some variances with the steel there, and the forces change at the same time, adding up to a very painful experience. I do think this is something relatively hard to fix, however, as if it was easy based on the popularity that the ride amazingly continues to get, they should be popping up in lots more parks by now. Having said all that, I find rides like this to be absolutely fascinating, and I generally want to ride them more than the nice, smooth coasters that most people love. X2 is at the top of my list of rides I want to get on, even though I'm certain I'll hate it.

The lights were only on the very last row, so you wouldn't have seen them while on the ride... Found a picture where you can see the battery pack "remains" on the link bar. I circled the battery pack in red and put it below. Here is the original pic on this site for comparison: http://www.themeparkreview.com/dells2005/sfgam/sfgam40.jpg I wish I had got an actual picture of it. Here is the battery pack on the train that powered the LED lights on the last row.

The short version of what I understand that happened is something like this - it was very hard and risky for new ride companies to make rides, so Intamin in the 80s served as more of a "contractor," finding talented designers that might not otherwise have the resources, matching them to parks, and helping to build their rides. B&M were one of the designers that Intamin contracted. From what I understand, the trains on Iron Wolf were the exact same as the "Intamin" trains, and then sometime after that (not sure if it was on one of the Vortexes or on Mantis) B&M redesigned the train to fix some issues with the way the "Intamin" trains functioned. If you look at the history of B&M, you'll see a common thread with one particular park... Great America bought Z-Force, replaced Z-Force with Iron Wolf, and also has the first B&M Invert. The article that was linked to about how B&M found the plant in Ohio they use for production sheds some more light onto that relationship. It isn't too hard to believe that management at the park met the designers when Z-Force was being designed, and then offered to remove the middle man and to buy the ride from them directly, negating the need to have Intamin in the middle (and maybe saving money at the same time). Then, the same group that had experienced success together created the invert coaster together. I wouldn't say that I have any definite data about this, but it seems too perfect to be a coincidence... and, I remember seeing a video from the opening of Superman at Great America where one of the designers said something about how without Great America's management, B&M probably wouldn't exist, and they were happy to continue their great partnership with Superman. Oh yeah, as for this track, it really wouldn't be that hard to refurb it from being rusty... *if* it had any real value, but it probably doesn't. Having said that, somehow, Six Flags found an excuse to rebuild Iron Wolf, and if they found reason to do that, there is a chance that Darien Lake - which is a similar size to SFA - could still decide it has some value. I'd be curious to know exactly exactly how Apocalypse does this year and next at SFA. If it proves itself popular, I wouldn't be surprised if Darien Lake or someone else decided it was worth the risk to rebuild this thing. If it doesn't, as I expect that it won't, then I expect this to go get itself melted down.

The molded backings to each chair are still there as far as I know, they just look really old. The fake lights have been changed little by little, until they disappeared. I remember seeing them as plastic buttons essentially a number of years ago. Unfortunately, I do not have any pictures of the lights. I never rode it when it opened, but I once did see a video of them. I can confirm that the batteries in row 8 were still there about 10 years ago, but I was told they have since gone missing. Interestingly enough, the link bars where those batteries were seem to be missing on the Batman Backwards incarnation, although the place where they connect seems to be there. Those bars were only on a handful of B&M inverts before they changed them to not be there, but it seems odd without them on it.

I think that all of the confusion about the train system comes more from what Universal says about it, specifically this: "And we've made sure that even your train trip aboard the Hogwarts Express will be part of the ambitious immersive storytelling experience that we're trying to create for our Guests with this Potter expansion." The normal transportation systems (Monorail, boat, or whatever) aren't what most people would consider "ambitious immersive storytelling." If Universal forces you to buy a two-day ticket to ride it, it would essentially become a massive upcharge attraction. The actual movement of people is completely secondary, and an easy problem to solve once the hopper part of the equation is figured out, which I'm certain Universal did before starting work on it at all. They just haven't told us yet.

Cool, good to know. Might be a day-of decision. I'm pretty sure my friend that I'm going with missed the trip we did to King's Island, so that may be a factor too... Are they cheaper online then at the park?

Batman was ridiculously themed when it opened, and it looks like this backwards change has restored some of it's theming. You're right about the graffiti and fog. The cop car, tunnel and station seem to be restored to a sort of foggy way. Other theming that disappeared at one point or another was there used to be junk rotting all over in that part near the cop car, and my favorite detail... row 8 used to have blinking LED lights on the back of the train that would blink green, yellow and red throughout the ride. This was an amazingly small detail, and an even better detail was that the battery for this was on the link bar of row 8 in the middle, and was custom stamped with the Batman logo. It was an amazing detail for a style of ride that rarely is that detailed. I believe that the blinking lights only blinked for the opening season. X-Flight made me sort of interested in heading back to Great America... Batman backwards makes me feel like I need to make it happen. Where did everyone get the July 6th date from? I know that my first opportunity would be very shortly after that day... so I've gotta hope.

It's been a LONG time since I've been to King's Island (or any theme park - having a newborn and no money will do that...) but I just confirmed that I'm making a coaster trip with an old friend this summer, and King's Island is going to be one of the places we go! After three years of going to a grand total of one park, I think I'm now managing 10 this summer alone. Yay! Anyway, I have always really liked King's Island but it's been about 10 years since I was last there. I'll be hitting the park in late August - probably Saturday the 17th - and I'm curious if anyone has any idea what crowds will look like. Also, how exactly does Fast Lane work at this park (is it really just an exit pass?) and is it worth pre-reserving them? I am not someone that feels the need to ride things constantly when I'm at a park - I can enjoy just walking around - but I also hate standing in long lines, and the rides I'm the most interested in making sure I hit I know will have lines... Any early input would be much appreciated!

Steel Hawg comes to mind.

The problem is, when you have Universal and Disney down the road, does even an awesome flat ride compete with Harry Potter or Carsland? Magic Mountain is in a location where they need something unique to market, and giant coasters is really all they have.

Thanks for the input everyone I found out he fell while I was at work today and got 3 stitches... and didn't have much of an issue with that. Knowing that, he's probably good to go. I took him on a Dragon Wagon this summer at a church festival - at first we thought he was too short, but then we found out he could go with an adult, so I crammed on there... and he held up his hands during the ride because he had seen some other kids doing it. With this input, he'll be fine

The only part of the Skycoaster experience that scared me was after they lifted you up and attached you to the wires, when they lowered the lift down a bit and you dropped into the horizontal position, stopping like a foot from the ground. I think in general if part of the reason you like coasters is because you are scared of heights, you'll love overcoming the Skycoaster scare. If you aren't so scared of heights, other then when I thought I was going to break my nose on the lift, I can honestly say it wasn't much more than a giant swing.

^ All right, assuming you've been on it, last question... is the truck part too intense for young 'uns? 3ish ones?

Yeah, but I can't think of one park with a low-capacity, upcharge thrill attraction like this with any theming to it. I'd feel happy about the fact it's got different colors. Although with the order o the colors of the rainbow incorrect, it would make me wonder if they put it together right!

^ So it still does the braking and stuff? Couldn't tell from the sounds in the video. I assume the "hot / cold" part is gone?

For those that have gotten to ride it... I wanted to avoid watching it since I'm going this summer, but the "now I'm a dad, can the little one handle it?" side kicked in so I did. Visuals were stunning, I agree that the ride seems to better fit the "mission" of Epcot, but one question that I have... During that whole initial indoor part, I couldn't tell what was going on much in the way of changes in speed / direction, etc. I remember really liking how the ride did the whole "here's non-anti lock brakes, here is anti-lock brakes" etc junk before, and while the visuals here are a million times more interesting and less dated looking, does this retain any of that? If not, does the length feel too long, or just right? Seemed like we were in there for a LONG time before the outdoor section. At first when I just saw the POV, it worried me that it was a weird update, but seeing everything before and after the ride in pics, this seems like a return to form for Epcot that has been missing for the last 10 or so years. Kudos to Disney.