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Arrow Dynamics fan

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Posts posted by Arrow Dynamics fan

  1. So Magic Mountain will have 19 coasters by next year. Do you guys expect an Iron Colossus announcement for next summer with the trains running backwards this spring to "make-up" for 2014 fright fest? Or do you believe they'll go for a BIG 20th coaster announcement for 2015 or 2016?


    I'm thinking that the big number 20 will come pretty soon, but in the form of Iron Colossus from a marketing standpoint. While the actual 20th will be another small addition, perhaps from a different six flags park. They still have that unused area where Deja Vu was and a relocated wild mouse or spinner would fit in easily enough to the footprint.


    Hell, if they wanted to do something more original than that. I bet they could get GCI's shuttle coaster concept in there no problem and have it be a family Apocalypse. Not that Apocalypse's ride isn't well suited for families as long as their children are tall enough.

    A spinning mouse would probably be the most sensible addition to reach 20. The park has enough high thrill coasters. What the park needs to focus on is getting the high thrill coasters to run better (Scream!), have more comfortable restraints (Revolution, Viper), and add more flats.

  2. 90% of the time the American Thunder is a walk on.


    While this is true, I have never understood why this thing doesn't draw bigger crowds, especially being right near the front of the park.


    The other two wooden coasters consistently have longer lines than it does and have more airtime. I've never cared for this coaster nor felt that this belongs in this park. It would have been a better fit at SFOT or SFFT.


    I respect your opinion of the ride, but I think it does fit the park. There is the classic woodie, the large modern woodie, and the twister.

    In my view, the reason why this coaster does not draw crowds is the GP cares more about height and airtime hills than twists and turns. Aside from hard core enthusiasts, I never hear anyone talk about twisting and turning on a coaster. Please understand that it isn't that I hate this coaster or that I think it is bad coaster (see Rattler and Mean Streak), it just doesn't offer anything (aside from Millennium Flyers) that the other coasters didn't already offer or do anything better. While it is liked more by enthusiasts than the Boss is, it is clear that the Boss despite its flaws has maintained its popularity. The fact that most of the attractions at the park that are next to it are rather old (Highland Fling & Carousel) and that it is in the back of the park seems tells me that this ride is why this area is so busy. The fact that the American Thunder does not draw crowds despite being so close to the entry is an indication that this was not the right addition. Frankly, I'd rather have the full Moon Cars track over the American Thunder.


    I think this would have been much better served as a Judge Roy Scream replacement (a not so impressive classic coaster that is shorter, rougher, and has less airtime than Screamin' Eagle) or as an addition to SFFT whose only wooden coaster (Rattler) was by far the worst coaster experience of my lifetime and as a result of the RMC transformation has no wooden coaster. In my view, either of these parks needed it much more than SFSTL, and SFSTL had a few more significant holes in their coaster line up (a kiddie coaster, hyper, newer looper) than a twisted wooden coaster. The Pandemonium addresses the need for coasters that twist as did the KRMT. I also think it is wiser for the park to fix what they have instead of adding coasters which do not address the parks weaknesses.

  3. I know the Ninja crowd drawing abilities are minute, but the question is what can you fit in its rather small footprint that it occupies that will draw crowds?


    Intamin vertical lift looping coaster.


    If I had my pick on which coaster to sacrifice, it would either be Boomerang or American Thunder.


    Huh? American Thunder is one of the best rides in the park!

    90% of the time the American Thunder is a walk on. The other two wooden coasters consistently have longer lines than it does and have more airtime. I've never cared for this coaster nor felt that this belongs in this park. It would have been a better fit at SFOT or SFFT.

  4. Yeah, because we really need a 4th wooden roller coaster...


    Not now, but after a Boss Rehab. Boss would become a steel coaster, and the park would only have 2 wooden coasters. Plus even though these RMC's are wooden coasters, they have elements you find on a steel coaster,they're smooth like a steel coaster, have little maintenance, and are relatively cheap compared to steel coasters. They're great investments and I could see Six Flags corporate putting them in multiple parks.

    So then you would have 3 wooden coasters and a steel coaster who's elements are pretty much wooden coaster elements ( actually you would have 2 considering that the KRMT is basically the same thing). The end result would be too much overlap. The impact of the addition of the Boss and American Thunder (a current generation wooden coaster) basically just reduced the number of people riding the Screamin' Eagle, they haven't really add much to attendance if you look at the records. The park would benefit more from a modern steel coaster being added than another wooden coaster.


    The park is probably just going to focus on flats and fixing for the next couple of years (and maybe that is all they will ever do with the park). My opinion, is I would think it couldn't hurt for Six Flags to try the new Vekoma MK-1212 trains on the Ninja to see if it makes it more enjoyable for those whom don't know how to ride it. If this is the only thing holding this ride back from having a better reputation in a time when we are not going to get anything better to replace it, why not see if we can't turn it into our own Shockwave (SFOT) or Mind Bender (SFOG) since those are also first gen looping coasters and we know that if they had the restraints that Revolution (SFMM) has, people would be happy to see those gone. Even if it is to be replace in 5 or so years, they can always add them later to the Boomerang (or any number of Arrow/Vekoma rides throughout the Six Flags chain).


    I know the Ninja crowd drawing abilities are minute, but the question is what can you fit in its rather small footprint that it occupies that will draw crowds? It would seem to me that when they eventually replace the Ninja, they would probably be wiser to use its footprint for a kiddie coaster and a flat of some sort and put its real replacement into some of the currently unutilized land. While I agree that at this point, it would be impractical for the park to expand the park into in the unused land in adding more buildings, walkways, and the such perhaps they could have the eventual new coaster queue house begin on the edge of the current grounds (say Joker, Inc. area) and aside from grounds keeping, it shouldn't require increasing the size of the park that significantly.


    In my opinion, the coaster count strategy is not as important as quality of coasters and having the right diversity. The Mr. Freeze might be more expensive to run and yes, I also criticize them for going clone crazy, but it is certain more unique than say Batman and definitely more unique than Boomerang. The other issue is the Mr. Freeze's foot print is small; therefore like Ninja, what you would be able to put in it's place that will be able to top the thrill level and draw the crowds? Between the two, the Ninja definitely has less draw and aside from Arrow fans like myself would be missed by few and would likely be scrapped (unless someone like Frontier City were to purchase it). The Mr. Freeze still has noteworthy draw (though I could see them transferring this in the ride rotation program some day). If I had my pick on which coaster to sacrifice, it would either be Boomerang or American Thunder.

  5. It's understandable that we didn't get anything major this year because of the accident and such. Here's to hoping 2014 is a better season all around. In 2015, I expect to see a major coaster though. They have been denying the flagship park of a unique attraction for so long. It's upsetting to say the least.


    Are you serious? This post is pretty stupid. Cause opening a huge Top 5 steel coaster two years ago isn't a unique attraction or anything... I'm also positive the accident didn't affect next years additions.

    I would say that leaving a space between larger additions (or truthfully) transformations is a better strategy. When a park follows the strategy of adding one coaster after another as seen in what Premier did back in the 90s, it invokes the law of diminishing returns on increasing attendance and racks up debt. This is a good move for this year for helping to address one of Six Flags weaknesses of not having a well balanced park for all audiences.


    Having said this, SFOT hasn't had much investment since 2001 (their only new coaster is Pandemonium) despite its size and the growing community it is located next to and there are a number of segments that their line up is lacking. The NTAG is a transformation of an existing coaster which kept the coaster count the same and last year the gave their Boomerang (Flashback) to SFSTL causing it to drop. If SFGAm can get X-Flight and Goliath for giving Iron Wolf and Ragin' Cajun to SFA, I don't see that it is "stupid" patrons to expect to get a coaster before long for giving Flashback (Boomerang) to SFSTL. SFMM gets a coaster just about every other year whether or not they had to give one to another park and it isn't their official "flagship park," and to be honest it actually makes that park feel very incomplete because they don't focus enough on other attractions or on fixing what they have.


    With the Texas Giant being transformed into a Steel Coaster, I would agree with the idea that retiring the Judge Roy Scream for a newer, better woodie should be considered as that coaster was the least impressive offering and is so short that there isn't much to work with for any kind of transformation. A GCI or Intamin woodie would make a great addition.


    The park does need to consider adding a newer looping coaster someday as their line up is getting rather dated and very much overshadowed by SFFT whose looping coaster line up has much more variety of inversions and newer additions. I would tend to support the idea of a segment similar to Maverick which stands out more than adding another B&M and would be a lot more intense.

  6. My first Arrow was King River Mine Train at Six Flags Over Mid-America (aka SFSTL) I think 1991.

    My first looping coaster Arrow had a hand in building was Ninja at Six Flags Over Mid-America 1993 I think.

    My first pure Arrow looping coaster was the Orient Express Worlds of Fun 1995 or 1996 I think.

    My first suspended coaster was Flight Deck King's Island 2011.

    My first Arrow Hyper was Magnum XL-200 in 2012.

    My first Arrow 4D was X2 in 2013.


    I have yet to find an Arrow that I don't like.


    I can't say that about any other manufacturer.

  7. Aqua Twists to replace the Hannibarrels is great idea. While you all know what I would like, this is the first flat addition in many years that I agree with. It give the non-Hurricane Harbor area a good wet flat ride. I have never gone to Hurricane Harbor as I'm not a water park fan, but this will make a nice addition to the Log Flume, Thunder River, and Tidal Wave.


    I actually like the security of SFSTL. I'll take the airport experience over a shooting at the park. Let's face it, when you have crazy people shooting up people at a movie theater, you need to watch this. St. Louis is hardly paradise on earth when it comes to crime, but it is hardly the worst (despite what some of those inaccurate ratings say). Also, remember that Eureka is a long distance away from the worst parts. In comparison, I felt less safe at SFFT as I saw a lot more gang member and with tattoos specifying which gang they were in. I have not seen anything this bad at SFSTL. I also think they need to do the same at SFMM. Also, remember that Kansas City is not that much better and they don't have the security at WoF. It is a bit annoying but I'm glad they do it.


    (See I'm not always negative, just most of the time )

  8. Hmmm...I was hoping for something different (Diving, one of the new S&S designs, Intamin Giga or Maverick type) but I'll take that over a flying, winged, or (B&M) Giga. I welcome these restraints as the older ones can become a problem when the coaster gets older (since Raptor & Batman). It is good that they decided to go a different direction from CP's most recent addition and a different segment than KI's previous addition. The name is an excellent choice and I love the ad. I too hope that they will retheme the Flight Deck to the Bat to go along with this dark direction.

  9. The boss is not THAT rough, unbearable is a drama queen statement. The ninja bashes your skull in ,that's rough. I'm saying I don't think a conversion is the answer. Chopping a ride and dumping money in it. Use a new ride and gain park expansion and be able to advertise something "big and new" (not boomerang new) and not "oh hey guys we added big turns and it's fast now"


    Are you crazy!? Have you not seen what RMC has done to Texas Giant and Iron Rattler? Texas Giant is a top 3 steel coaster in the Mitch Hawker and top 5 in the Golden Tickets. I'm sure Iron Rattler is going to be in the top 10 too. If RMC does the conversion, it would become a whole brand new ride, and the park could market the ride as a whole brand new ride and not even have to lie (ex. Mt. Olympus and Hades 360). RMC has said that Texas Giant and Iron Rattler is barely pushing the limits of what they can do with their track. So I'm assuming with each design that they do, it's only going to get crazier. The park has more to gain with a conversion of the Boss than leaving the coaster as it currently stands. Plus, It doesn't look like corporate as a whole lot of interest in expanding Six Flags St. Louis beyond the current boundaries. Remember, Boomerang took the place of the Bumper Cars.

    have ridden the NTAG. I was not impressed. The experience was too smooth and lacked force. While I acknowledge that for now it does well in rankings, coasters at the top do not always stay at the top (see Timber Wolf).


    The Rattler didn't take much to top it. That was hands down the worst rollercoaster experience of my life. The Boss is nothing like the Rattler. The Boss vibrates and you feel it because the padding is very hard on the trains, the restraints have too much exposed metal, and has you sit in an uncomfortable crouching position. That is most of the Boss's problem. The Rattler kept slamming you from side to side violently against the PTC bolsters the whole time bruising your rib cage and the vibrations were worse on top of that. The Boss's layout is good overall, has a good balance of turns and hills. The Rattler was primarily turns with a few hills. The Iron Horse was pretty much the only fix for the Rattler and there are other coasters that would benefit from it that have bad layouts (Mean Streak), but the Boss isn't one of these. It needs better trains and maybe some Topper Track.


    While I agree that the Boss is rough, the fact of the matter is it already draws one of the longest, if not the longest line in the park. Upgrading something that is successful is one thing but fundamentally transforming something that was already successful as it is, especially if it shortens it, could back fire. It is also important to take into account that the effectiveness of such a move might have been greatly lost due to the recent addition of the Outlaw Run. I doubt the budget SFSTL has will be enough to make the Boss top the Outlaw Run. It would be a better strategy to counter this by offering something that SDC and WoF either do not have or one up them some place else.


    If you are going to invest in fundamentally transforming a ride, why not change the American Thunder? The line is comparatively as long as the Ninjas despite being so new. Or if there was a way to transform the Ninja back into relevance, either of those would potentially be more effective by fixing coasters that are not drawing the crowds nearly as well as the Boss and due to their smaller size, it would require less investment.


    Giving it better trains (Millennium Flyers), and adding some topper track, I can agree with but Iron Horse I have to disagree with.


    I will give the park this, aside from the Boomerang, the park looks fantastic this year. The S:TOP looks like new, the Rush Street Flyer looks much better and rides better too, I'm happy to see that the Excalibur is running again. The problem that I see with the park as what ProZach has said they can't seem to figure out what they are. (Bear with me and I will give the park praise in areas where it has earned it). Shortening the Moon Cars, removing the kid's coaster, and the bumper cars each stand out to me as missteps that keep the park from being what it can be.


    In truth, this park holds a special place in my heart despite the fact that it was NOT my first theme park experience (It was Orpyland USA followed by Frontier City). What the park does well is it a very friendly park. When I was at SFMM I even commented that I wished Dave Roemer and his team could come out and straighten out the attitude problems we encountered from the employees (to their credit, it is probably because they get worn out from some of the rude patrons we saw). The park is considerably cleaner than it has ever been. Of the 4 Six Flags parks I have been to (SFMM, SFOT, SFFT, SFSTL), it is my favorite hands down. The layout is easy to navigate, it is a beautiful park with the landscaping, it has some of my favorite flats (Rush Street Flyer, Excalibur) and my 2nd favorite log flume (SFFT takes the cake). The Boss and Screamin' Eagle are in my top 3 woodies, aside for Boomerang & Pandemonium I like the steel coaster line-up (especially Ninja ). I just hope someday that this park will be what I know it can be with the right investment and giving it the autonomy to have more local culture come through, especially when it comes to the food.

  10. It's rumored that some piece of track is either cracked or has some other type of damage (likely a result of the movement of the ride and it's age), the ride has probably only operated about 50% of the time since it opened a month ago.

    Excellent! Finally some good news!


    It's done absolutely nothing to help the park in any way and has actually hurt the park is several ways and it's showing in attendance on most days, maybe SF corporate will learn a lesson but I sort of doubt that .

    Boy, what a surprise! I didn't see that coming from a mile away!


    Boomerang was one of the cheapest ride moves Six Flags has ever done, while SF did pay somebody to take the ride down in Texas, drive it here and the install it at SFSL., basically everything else that is usually contracted out when a theme park installs a new ride was done "in-house" by SFSL. Why?, because Six Flags of today is a cheap company that wants to spend as little as possile on the parks, but make guests spend more whenever they come to the parks. Boomrang was a very minor investment for the, park but since the park is getting very little ROI back from the ride,it's cost dosen't really matter.

    While I agree that this was the cheapest and the worst rollercoaster addition in SFSTL history, I don't have a problem with them installing this in house. Why contract out what you can do with people already on your pay roll? As far as rollercoaster complexity is concerned Boomerang makes Greezed Lightnin' look like a Yolocoaster. They have been out for a very long time, lots of parks in the chain have them, and they don't even having launching features.


    Well you should be thankful you're not at SFA. They got 1 coaster since 2000. Your park got 4.

    Wrong. Since 2000 SFA has received Superman: Ride of Steel, Batwing, & Apocalypse. Better yet, why don't we extend the rollercoaster addition history a bit between these two because I am getting tired of the sympathy for SFA arguments:


    SFA: Mind Eraser (1995), Roar (1998), The Joker's Jinx (1999), the Great Chase (1999), Two Face: the Flip Side (1999 defunct), Superman: Ride of Steel (2000), Batwing (2001), & Apocalypse (2012).

    SFSTL: Batman (1995), Mr. Freeze (1998), The Boss (2000), Pandemonium (2007), American Thunder (2008), Boomerang (2013).


    Also take a look at what they had before 1995:


    SFA: a used woodie 1986, a very used Arrow lauched loop (1 inversion) 1993, and a kiddie coaster 1993.

    SFSTL: a Mine Train, a slightly used Arrow/Vekoma looper (4 inversions), a once world record holding woodie, and a kiddie coaster


    SFSTL was a park that already had more and better despite being a much newer park. Also note that SFSTL had their first looper (brand new when it was added mind you) in 1981 vs. 1993, had an additional track of the Mine Train, and had their first coaster in 1971 whereas SFA had their first on in 1986. SFSTL was the better park from the beginning and should not be compared to SFA. SFA should be compared more to Frontier City as that is pretty much what the park was for the longest time. Premier put too much into SFA and not enough in SFSTL.


    It looks to me as though SFA has actually received more investment than SFSTL based on coaster count. The issue is Premier managed Six Flags hasn't added the right coasters to help SFSTL improve themselves competitively.


    The American Thunder did not address the parks needs as it was the only park in the local area that had two wooden coasters at the time and had WoF clearly licked. After the American Thunder was added the very next year WoF invested $1million more than SFSTL and got a GCI that made theirs look insignificant. An addition for the sake of addition doesn't automatically guarantee success. Also look at how things have changed since 2000:


    SFSTL was clearly the king when it came to coasters in the local area. Having the two tallest wooden coasters in the region, the only inverted coaster, the only lauched coaster, a competitive looper, and a mine train.


    WoF was nearly on the ropes having attendance that fell below 1 million for the first time in years, the Orient Express was failing, Boomerang was not a successful addition, Mamba was good but was having to carry all the park, did Cedar Fair do as Premier managed Six Flags would do of cut their losses and leave it for dead (see SFNO, SFAW, & SFKK), nope, they added spinning dragons, Patriot, and Prowler each of which added a new better experience and the park is competitive again.


    Silver Dollar City was many things a rollercoaster goers park it was not. It was a good park, but more of a family park. Since 2000 they added an impressive looper, a unique air launched coaster, and what appears to be the new best woodie in the region (possibly one of the best nationally). Silver Dollar City now is a serious contender when it comes to rollercoasters.


    WoF and Silver Dollar City have caught up and a broken Boomerang isn't going to cut it. In fact, having an old ride like this that is having reliability problems and from what I have heard from people whom have ridden it, it IS rough, reinforces the reputation that SFSTL is an "old, worn out park" (not my words, but people from the General Public).


    Six Flags needs to careful about their strategy. If a B&M or Intamin is out side the realms of possibility for this park, they should at least look at some of the others for unique additions which would make this park stand out.

  11. My guess would either a Launched Eurofighter or an S&S launch coaster, or the world's first B&M spiral lift hill with an abrupt stop 150ft in the air, followed by the most convoluted evacuation stair case ever....

    that would be interesting!


    I didn't know that S&S launched coasters could be acquired for that low. Nevertheless, that would be an impressive addition, especially if they could add a Space Shot in the design for support. This way they could do like SFMM did with incorporating a drop tower into one of their coasters and save space, make a sweet looking ride, and possibly save money.


    I know it was in bad shape, but I really hate to see Greezed Lightnin' go as that was the most interesting coaster they had left in the park line up. Frankly, they could have removed any of the other ones and it wouldn't have bothered me. Oh well, hopefully it will be something intense.

  12. Here is my list:


    Viper (SFMM): I would change the initial drop from a driving drop to a level turn around then a direct drop as seen in the Vortex (KI). Also have the coaster drop sharper and lower to the ground before and climb higher and stepper for the first inversion. (Going very overboard) change the layout giving the ride interlocking loops with the first and second loop.


    Scream (SFMM): change the initial drop from driving drop to the same as found in the Superman Kryton Coaster.


    Magnum XL-200 & Mamba: add a pre-drop as seen in X2 & B&M for after the lift hill as this tends to let the coaster a bit of boost for airtime. I would give the Mamba new trains Arrow if I could get them as they feel less clunky, if not that I guess B&M or Premier.


    Arrow loopers: what ever trains with whatever restraints will help make the ride more enjoyable for those whom have problems. I don't have any problems with them myself, but I want them to be more comfortable so then people will want the parks to hold on them.


    King River Mine Train & Gold Rusher: New trains with individual lap bars and some padding for the seats.


    Boomerangs: either replace the Cobra Roll with a Batwing inversion or an over banked turn and have them launched.


    Revolution (SFMM): lose the over the shoulder restraints.


    All wooden coasters: replace trains with Millennium Flyers.


    All Stand up B&Ms: a new restraint system more similar to their flying coasters (soft OTSR and restraints for legs instead of the banana seats and hard & narrow OTSR).


    ZacSpins: pre-set inversions more like Arrow/S&S (Most likely impossible).


    Gerstlauer Spinning Coasters: limitations to speed of spinning to avoid getting sick on coaster.


    Mr. Freeze: add some softer padding to the seat and to the sides and have one train in reverse and one facing forward.


    Titan and Goliath: switch to B&M trains.


    Mean Streak: Iron Horse into something less painful and fun or Demolish.


    Boss: On top of Millennium Flyers add any Topper Track needed and add a barrel roll if possible.


    Timber Wolf: Iron Horse into something quicker and more interesting or Demolish.

  13. KK PR says announcement will be made in a few weeks about the new coaster.

    What can they get from $7 million? I believe most B&Ms & Intamins, even many larger Vekomas cost at least twice that much. My guess is one of the following:


    S&S El Loco or next gen Free Flyer


    Gerstlauer Eurofighter or Spinning Coaster


    Zamperla Motorbike or spinning coaster


    A newer Premier launched coaster (YOLO)


    Maurer Sohne Skyloop


    Intamin ZacSpin (I hope not)


    Any ideas?

  14. Worst:

    B&M: Mantis (CP) 1.0 out of 10- restraints are so narrow by boxed my ears pulling them into place and it has B&M vibration so bad, it causes head banging on straight portions.


    Intamin: Green Lantern (SFMM) 1.0 out of 10-I am sure this can be a fun ride if the weight distribution is correct, but my experience was one where it was obviously not and it hurt big time.


    GCI: American Thunder (SFSTL) 6.0 out of 10-Not by anymean a terrible woodie with all pain and no fun (see the original Rattler & Mean Streak) or a terribly unimpressive & boring one (Timber Wolf & Judge Roy), it just isn't that intense in terms of air time and add anything to help make SFSTL's experience complete (unlike Prowler). In fairness, the only ones I have ridden from GCI are Prowler (9.0 out of 10.0) and Apocalypse (6.5 out of 10.0). A decent coaster that would have a bigger benefit for SFOT or especially for SFFT.



    B&M: Superman Krypton Coaster (SFFT): 8.5 out of 10.0 Good airtime in initial drop, has a good amount of intensity for B&M standards, very smooth.


    Intamin: Maverick: 9.5 out of 10 (CP): Amazing airtime, extremely intense, very out of control.


    GCI: Prowler: 9.0 out of 10 (WoF): Feels like someone made a wooden coaster to simulate the experience of riding a jet ski. While not an airtime machine with big drops, extremely fun in its own right.

  15. 1. Maverick-9.5 out of 10-loaded with air time and feels very much out of control.


    2. Millennium Force-9.5 out of 10-another very intense coaster with a ton of air time. Love the music in the queue (sounds megamanish.)


    3. Magnum XL-200-9.0 out of 10-my favorite conventional hyper coaster, lot of air time and focused on hills (the way i prefer it). The design is really neat for the trains and the queue house and I love the colors.


    4. Gemini-8.0 out of 10-my favorite of the mine train types. Has great airtime, looks a bit creepy, but is very fun.


    5. Corkscrew-7.5 out of 10-fairly fun and smooth Arrow, just wish it had more elements. I prefer Vortex (KI), Viper (SFMM), Orient Express (WoF defunct), and Ninja (SFSTL) to this.


    6. Iron Dragon-7.5 out of 10-pretty fun suspended coaster, just a little too tame in comparison to Ninja (SFMM) and Flight Deck (KI).


    7. Raptor-7.0 out of 10-a good coaster overall, but it doesn't rank as well due to roughiness. I believe however this is partly due to riding Mantis right before hand. I will have to ride it again to see if it ranks better some day.


    8. Top Thrill Dragster-6.5 out of 10-It looks great, it is extremely fast, but I didn't feel much in terms of airtime due to how fast the ride was. The ride is too short concerning the experience.


    9. Blue Streak-6.5 out of 10-not by anymeans a bad coaster, not rough, just short by now day standards and not very quick. In fairness it is the oldest woodie I have ridden.


    10. Cedar Creek Mine Ride-6.0 out of 10-Nothing wrong with it, just not a very intense ride due to it being a family ride. In much better shape than Gold Rusher (SFMM).


    11. Wicket Twister-4.5 out of 10-It didn't do much for me, just back and worth with a twirl. I'd take Mr. Freeze any day, but I would take this over Boomerang anyday.


    12. Mean Streak-2.0 out of 10- With the Rattler gone, this is the worst woodie I have ridden. I expected it would be great due to it's large size. This thing rode horribly. The track looks like the ride was broken and someone figured out a quick gerry-rig fix to make it operable.


    13. Mantis-1.0 out of 10-ranks down with Green Lantern and Boomerangs. So rough with B&M vibration, it causes head banging while going in a straight line, and the inversions were nightmare. This ride makes me wonder where the reputation about B&Ms being "smooth as glass" came from. The restraints on this stand up coasters are way too narrow, they hit my ears as I lower them which does not happen on floorless, inverted, or flying coasters B&M restraints. It needs a rehab with better trains or retirement.

  16. I didn't get a chance to ride everything but this is how they ranked:


    1. X2 - ranking 10 out of 10-my new favorite. Excellent airtime, unlike anything I have ever experienced. The whole time was an absolute blast!


    2. Ninja- ranking 9.0 out of 10- I can't decide whether I like this or Flight Deck better. I like the color scheme way better as well as the theme better (I am sure though that the original Top Gun theme would have helped make the difference for Flight Deck), but I preferred that the initial turn and drop of the Flight Deck. Great ride and no significant line. Feels very out of control in a good way.


    3. Viper- ranking 8.5 out of 10- I like this ride, just not as well as I liked Vortex largely because the Vortex's first drop is loaded with Air Time and seems to have less wasted portions. The Viper is a great lesson that taller and more inversion doesn't make the ride automatically better, but it does rank very well in my personal list. I loved the launching feeling after going up the incline after the 3rd loop. It ranks better for certain the SFSTL's Ninja (which I do like) and better than Corkscrew (CP). I can't remember Orient Express (WoF)well enough to compare.


    4. Colossus-8.0 out of 10-Going up the lift hill, I told my brother "this ride looks like it should be condemned" thinking it was going to be a repeat of Mean Steak. Boy was I wrong. This ride was actually a lot of fun. It was a bit abrupt in transfer, drops, and inclines, but it had good air time. The Morgan Trains look a bit funny and could have used more padding but were actually comfortable.


    5. Riddler's Revenge- 7.0 out of 10-Beyond superior to Mantis. Although it boxed my ears a few times, including the initial pulling down on the restraint, it was forceful and worthwhile. The theming was excellent.


    6. Apocalypse- 6.5 out of 10-Another GCI that really lacks airtime. Colossus felt smoother. The Prowler (WoF) is a much better GCI woodie. About the same as American Thunder.


    7. Scream-A far cry from Superman: Krypton Coaster (SFFT). This is completely forceless. You feel about as much riding this as you see in watching a POV video.


    8. Batman (I didn't get a chance but I have ridden 3 Batmans and know how they ride).


    9. Goliath-6.0 out of 10-I remember the Titan (SFOT) having more airtime than this, to the point that the gray out happened before the helix; whereas, this coaster the gray out happened on the helix. I prefer all other hypers I have been on (Magnum

    XL-200, Titan, Diamondback, Mamba) to this one.


    10. Gold Rusher-6.0 out of 10-this coaster needs some work. The trains are in terrible shape. The restraint wiggles and it looks like the rest of the trains are falling apart. Aside from this, a good ride for what it is.


    11. Tatsu-5.5 out of 10-This coaster isn't for me. The pretzel loop put all the forces on my head and gave me a headache and the leg restaints started to give me leg cramps in the middle of the ride. I did like however the soft restraints and the rest of it was fun.


    12. Revolution-3.0 out of 10-The moment I put the restraints on, I knew I was in trouble. The OTSR ends on my rib cage and the lap bar stops too high into my stomach. Even without the pain, the Shockwave is a much better coaster. Having said this, I will take this over Mantis, Boomerangs, or the next one.


    13. Green Lantern-1.0 out of 10-I thought I was going to love this due to loving X2 and having loved other Intamins (Maverick and Millennium Force). They paired my brother and I (weighing 190 and 175 respectively) up with people whom were obese. When the train leaned lifting us up in the air before the ride began, I knew we were in trouble. This is why I don't like coasters like this and Pandemonium whose experience is based on weight distribution. If the ride is balanced they can be fun, if not they are a nightmare.

  17. My gut says it will likely be a B&M Giga or Winged since Cedar likes to feature the same attractions at their different parks (though using different brands a little more frequently than Six Flags). What would probably be the most useful B&M to add would be a Dive Coaster as this would be new for Cedar and would give people whom are visiting Cedar Point a completely different experience to justify including Kings Island in their trip.


    They seem to be in a B&M streak currently so i doubt it will be an Intamin (unfortunately).


    As much as I would like them to try to redo Son of Beast this time with a better layout, with a better manufacturer (RMC, GG, GCI, etc.), and different name as they redid the Bat with the Top Gun/Flight Deck, my gut says they probably want to let the memory of Son of Beast fade before trying something like that again.

  18. ^^ The park is hosting an event on July 6th and said that Batman will be backwards for it. Haven't heard anything past that date yet.

    I bet this is going to be a traveling attraction to the different Six Flags parks over the next several years as a way to draw people back in for their pre-existing ride as they have done with many other rides, only they want to create the rush for people to come now with their claim that it will only be at this park for an uncertain amount of time. I will give them this, that is clever marketing.

  19. I see a few problems with trying to do the Iron Horse conversion:


    1. Cost: Texas Giant cost about $10 million to rehab, which is pretty much the same price that it cost to build Outlaw Run. So basically what you are asking for is to tear down the Boss for a new coaster. This means instead of getting hopefully a coaster we would like whether it is a hyper, multi-looper, etc. We would be sacrificing the Boss to get a steel coaster on a wooden frame that features neither of the advantages from either segment (classic feeling from wood, or more extreme elements from steel).


    2. Long-term Popularity: I understand Texas Giant currently lands on 5th place, but the question is "will the popularity last?" Despite wooden coaster elements and segments being much less advanced than that of steel coasters, wooden coasters maintain their popularity better as well as their relevance. Take a look at how Screamin' Eagle compares to El Toro or Hades 360 vs. how any steel coaster (Corkscrew, Shockwave) from that time era compares to our modern coaster segments (Giga, Strata, 4th Dimension, etc.). The Boss's popularity is still strong in its current version as it generally has the longest line of all of the coasters from what I have seen. Why get rid of what is currently popular?


    3. Other Alternatives: I agree that something needs to be done to try to fix it for good as I remember that last year at the beginning it rode like a dream, but just a couple weeks later it was rough again. I will stand by the position that a major contributor to the problem are the trains. Ever coaster that has used these trains has a reputation for being rough, if they were to get a more modern train that is more flexible with more generous padding, it would help significantly. I would also be more inclined to try some topper track in a few rough areas so long as it doesn't loose the classic wooden coaster feeling.


    4. Potential Flooded Market: Tying into Long-term Popularity, I can see this being done on a lot more larger coasters which roughness is merely one of their many flaws. For instance, Mean Streak while it is large doesn't have any noteworthy air time, drops, and has to run so slow for what it is and is not just vibration rough like Boss, but the whole ride feels like it is broken and is only working by last minute jerry-rigged solutions. If this happens, each one is going to want more impressive elements than the previous (see Iron Rattler vs. Texas Giant) and if you are one of the first, you will lose from having an older, more outdated version after many follow after.


    Batman and Boomerangs are found at nearly every SF park

    Really? Is it SO BAD that a really awesome B&M invert has been cloned to other parks? I honestly have never met a Batman I don't like. And Boomerangs, eh. Big deal...


    SFSTL, SFOT, & SFFT each offer a Batman, & a Pandemonium

    I mean, those are two really good rides! I don't see the problem here...


    SFOT & SFSTL both offer Mr. Freeze

    And those are the ONLY two in the chain...hell, I would actually like them to build MORE of these, please!


    SFSTL & SFFT both have a Boomerang

    The Boomerang aside, I would be willing to bet that less than 1% of the visitors from the St. Louis park ALSO visit the San Antonio park. In fact, I'd even be willing to bet the number of people who visit the Arlington park AND the San Antonio park in the same year isn't much higher than that number.


    the very reason why you go to another park is to enjoy a new experience

    You do realize that even some of the BEST theme parks in the world clone rides, right? I mean, you might as well never go to Tokyo Disneyland because they have a clone of Space Mountain, Tower of Terror, Indiana Jones, Big Thunder, Toy Story Mania, Cartoon Spin, Pirates of the Caribbean, Haunted Mansion, Star Tours, Small World, Buzz Lightyear, etc. I mean, geez, what a crappy park! Nothing but stupid clones!


    Yeah, this has always been one of my "enthusiast pet peeves." And sure, I love to see original rides at parks as much as the next person, but it really doesn't bother me when I see duplicates of rides that are really good like Batman, Mr. Freeze, Tower of Terror, Spider-Man, or even stuff like Fire in the Hole.


    Honestly, it's all part of how the business works...


    --Robb "End rant!" Alvey

    With all due respect, it is a problem that the experience other than the mirrored layout on a couple (SFSTL & SFFT included) are identical. While I prefer some B&M Invert layouts to others, I appreciate the experience to ride versions whether they have more elements or fewer (Raptor & Patriot) compared to the Batman. Having most Six Flags parks offering an B&M Inverted coaster with the same title (except SFFT) is by no means what I am against, it is the fact that the elements are the same. While Batman, Pandemonium, and Mr. Freeze are each really good rides, why have them all centralized in the same geographic area? It wouldn't bother me as much if they would trade one of the Mr. Freeze's for something of similar caliber that this area does not already have (say a Intamin mega coaster), heck they could make a couple more just keep them out of the midwest and not next to each other. The issue is they keep putting the same coasters at parks in the same geographic region (Mr. Freeze, Superman Ride of Steel, and Pandemonium). I can even see having one large cloned coaster ride at every park as a brand signature and maybe a small ride like Pandemonium so long as that isn't the one that the park in depending upon as their crowd drawer, but when you have that much overlap it begs the question "why bother visiting all the local parks?"


    Disney's parks are a complete different universe as far as I am concerned from Six Flags and Cedar Fair, and I personally have no intentions as of right now to travel outside of the U.S. for theme parks. Having clones in a different country is a complete different situation considering the incredible cost of travel to travel. Outside of hardest core of hard core Disney fans, I am sure that even fewer people (percentage wise) who visit Disneyland will ever visit Tokyo Disneyland.

  21. How long can you sustain a park's existence by giving them worn out reject rides and neglecting the crowd drawing attractions?


    2013- Used Boomerang coaster

    2012- New waterslide/Mr. Freeze Reverse Blast

    2011- New Starflyer

    2010- No new attraction/general improvements

    2009- New waterslide

    2008- New GCI wooden coaster

    2007- New Gerstlauer spinning coaster

    2006- Used Intamin freefall, new kids area (mix of new and used rides)

    2005- New waterslide


    That's six years with a brand new attraction, one year with a mix of new and used, one year with just a used attraction, and another season with no new rides/slides. It's not like they have received used ride after used ride like Six Flags Astroworld did before closing, or how Dorney Park has been getting from CF the past few years.

    Of these additions, 3 were in the waterpark. I don't use the waterpark, but I am sure they were good additions. Frankly, I don't think the waterpark has done much to help attendance (at least not for the long term) considering the fact that the parks attendance has been lower after the addition of the water park compared to before it.


    The American Thunder although a good coaster does not address what the park needs (a signature steel coaster); therefore, wrong addition to the wrong park, I would have preferred having different trains for the Boss over this. The Gerstlauer spinning coaster is a family coaster it has its place. The Intamin freefall has a problem with one of the cars getting stuck on the top. The Excalibur (a used ride added in 2003) has been having problems and is rumored to need work or possible replacement. That is two of our most intense flats added within the last ten years having operating issues. The problem is many of our older flats are getting worn (Highland Fling) and replacing old with old just kicks the can down the road. Also our Starflyer is one of the shortest of its kind and has been having break down issues as well.


    Concerning Astroworld even in their later years were not exclusively used ride additions. They received a new SLC in 1999 (not a good coaster but by definition it was new and added more to Astroworld than what the American Thunder or Boomerang will for SFSTL) and they received a new S&S Fly Swatter.


    I am not demanding a new ride every year, but I do ask that if they are going to add a used ride, to add one that functions as well as a new one, one that has the potential to last, and one that addresses what the park needs. In my perspective, the general improvements in 2010 were more valuable than what this addition will be as this will use up our budget to remove the bumper cars, as well as to paint, ship, and install this coaster. Frankly, the announcement of the Batman in Reverse would have been the perfect excuse to perform the paint job on SFSTL's Batman and fix up the queue area for this year.

  22. I'm honestly really fascinated to know why so many people hate on the Six Flag brand like crazy. Frankly, I love my Six Flags and I always will. As roller coaster lovers, shouldn't we love Six Flags BECAUSE THEY FOCUS ON ROLLER COASTERS?! Great Adventure is my home park, I go there all the time and it's still right up there with Hersheypark, Universal Orlando and Cedar Point to me and yes I've been to all of these. My friend that I went to Cedar Point with told me after the trip he liked Great Adventure better and he loves roller coasters too. I've heard numerous complaints about their customer service but Six Flags has always treated me well and I can put that up against other parks. I've heard complaints about their food but let's face it, has anyone been to an amusement park that has really good food? I haven't. I've heard complaints about the amount of time it takes to load the trains. Really, Nitro is the fastest coaster I've seen at loading trains and El Toro is a close second. So I have to ask, why the hell do people hate on Six Flags so much? I'd really like to know.


    I will try to keep this brief and don't beat a dead horse. Your park SFGAdv does not represent the mainstream Six Flags park. SFGAdv has received some of the best coasters and attractions that Six Flags has to offer. El Toro is ranked as the best wooden coaster, Nitro is ranked towards the top of steel coasters, each of your inverted coasters have a large quantity and variety of inversions (5-7 except Superman Ultimate Flight) and are made by one of the best manufacturers (B&M), you have the tallest coaster in the world (Kingda Ka), and even the rides recently removed (Batman & Robin: the Chiller, and GASM) were once among the world's best. Aside from SFMM and maybe SFGAm that does not describe most of the other parks.


    This is a list of my pet peeves of Six Flags:


    -Clones: Batman and Boomerangs are found at nearly every SF park and many others located geographically close to each other offer the same coasters (SFSTL, SFOT, & SFFT each offer a Batman, & a Pandemonium, SFOT & SFSTL both offer Mr. Freeze, and SFSTL & SFFT both have a Boomerang). It kills the purpose because the very reason why you go to another park is to enjoy a new experience not have half of the rides being the exact same as what you have back at home. I would rather go to a competing park that may have inferior offerings in the same segment (WoF Patriot vs. Batman) that at least provide a distinguishably different experience. While Cedar Fair is nowhere near perfect about this, and admittedly one of their parks I have visited (KI) has only recently been in their control unlike the three Six Flags parks I have visited, there are fewer clones used and so many more unique coasters in the lineup of Cedar Point, Kings Island, and Worlds of Fun.


    -Maintenance: Six Flags tends to let their steel coasters get shabby looking as well as their respective theming. When I first saw Shockwave during 2011, I had concerns that it might be SBNO based on the way it appeared and there had not been any trains running on it until a while later (they fortunately have resolved this). At SFSTL the track of the Batman is looking rusty and is getting rougher as well as the theming from the queue continues to be neglected and removed. The Mine Train hasn't had a paint job in I don't know how long. Some of their choices on paint colors make the rides less exciting and more dreary. The Ninja went from a bright orangish-red track to black. It makes the skyline more depressing when you have two coasters that are black and nothing really bright to contrast against it.


    -Food: It is terrrible and over priced. It is very low grade processed food. Most fast food joints are better than this. If they would open this up to local vendors whom use more fresh ingredients and adapt it for a more local taste and styles.


    -Parking lots: the main ones are okay, but the extra lots used on busier days are literally crumbling and are not often swept. You have to watch where you park if you don't want to run over glass or other undesired things.


    -Newer coaster additions: In the history of SFSTL before Premier, each coaster added was a good addition that provided either a new experience or a more intense experience (KRMT was original with the park, Screamin' Eagle was a wooden coaster and a previous world record holder, Jet Scream provided an inversion, Ninja (slightly used) provide 4 inversions (2 new types to the park) and faster than Jet Scream, Batman was an inverted layout with 5 inversions (1 new inversion type to the park) and faster than Ninja, Mr. Freeze provided a launch type 2 direction coaster with a new inversion type to the park faster than the Batman, even Boss (Premier's first addition) advance the park with it being taller than Screamin' Eagle (but they messed even that up with the selection of Gerstlauer Trains). Since this, the additions have not added anything noteworthy to the park's experience. I can't really criticize Pandemonium as it does at least provide the experience of spinning, but it is a family coaster and not what I am looking for. American Thunder is shorter and slower than either Screamin' Eagle or Boss, and is nowhere near as good as Prowler (WoF) and did not address what our park is needing. Boomerang is a very used clone with around 50 copies in existence and is slower than any of SFSTLs inverted coasters and does not address what the park needs.


    -Following the Standard Oil strategy: It drives me crazy when companies think they can have a monopoly by buying out all of their competition, because the end result is they have less money to invest in the products/service that I am purchasing from them, they put in less effort because they think they already own you, they uniform everything so then there is less variety and uniqueness.


    -Putting all the best coasters in two, maybe three parks: Many others have pointed out that SFMM doesn't offer much besides coasters and while they were doing this preventing their park from having the needed balance, it came at a cost to the parks that could have used one of their excess coasters. They have 3 coasters with 6-7 inversions (The Riddler's Revenge, Viper, Scream!), 2 hyper coasters (Goliath & X2), 2 launchers (Superman: Escape from Krypton & Full Throttle). On top of some clones (Batman of course) and other ones that are unique and not duplicating segments (Tatsu, Ninja, etc.), this park gets a ton of the best coasters on the market, while SFOT really has nothing unique (other than the Texas Giant and that may change before long) nor does SFSTL nor SFFT. Your park as already discussed has lots of amazing coasters that are among the best and we lost one of our local coasters (Chang aka Green Lantern) to your park which would have been a nice addition to one of our other local parks. It rubs salt in the wound especially when we get stuck with a Boomerang that was already from this region and already offered nearby. It also is frustrating because unlike Cedar Point & Kings Island, SFMM and SFGAdv are on the opposite ends of the country; therefore, it is very inconvenient and more expensive to travel to enjoy the unique stuff.


    Despite my criticisms, I don't hate Six Flags, I just criticize the things they are doing that drive me crazy. There are things that I my opinion they do a decent job on. In comparison to Cedar Fair, they keep their wooden coasters up better. I would much rather ride the Boss than most of the wooden coasters I have ridden at CF parks. The Screamin' Eagle is one of my favorites. The wood on Timber Wolf (WoF) is bowed and despite being run slow (a band aid on the problem), it rides rough. The Rattler was terrible, but I blame that squarely on the designer and the previous company for ordering that one, SF may have finally resolved this problem. The Mean Streak rides like a pile of junk thrown together. Even though I like the Beast (KI), it will beat you up much worse than the Boss if you ride in the back). The Racer (KI) really needs some TLC.


    I will say that SF is the discount brand theme park. Their season passes are much cheaper, I prefer the deal on the souvenir cup deal of Six Flags to that of Cedar Fairs, but I would be more than willing to pay the price that Cedar Fair charges if they would start adding better coasters to my park and offer distinguishably different coasters to the nearby Six Flags parks (SFOT, SFFT, SFGAm).

  23. Even if Hart does re-open the park, don't you guys think it will be hard to keep it over the years? He's investing in a lot to re-open the park, and to install a new roller coaster which I'm guessing would possibly replace Chang. Over the years, he will still need a lot of money to keep the park operating well. Do you think that the park will be as good as it was when it was still a tourist attraction?, or will it go back to the way it was from 2006-2009?




    I do think Ed Hart has a good plan though, add to the waterpark and a new Chang replacement. However, with the waterpark taking up Chang's spot, I'm not sure where the new coaster could go.



    If they don't want to use Chang's old spot for the water-park, I don't think they have to. I looked on Google maps the other day, and it seems Chang's footers are still there today. Nothing for the water park expansion was ever built, and the spot can be still used for a new coaster if they want. I would also like to see a Tower of Power replacement, they could possibly put a ride similar to SkyScreamer there.



    I really want this park to re-open, it seemed like an awesome little park. Hart really loves that place. If they do re-open it, I will make sure I visit the park. It would be really cool if they added a B&M dive machine, that would bring life back to the park. As much as I would to see this park re-open, sometimes I just lose hope, because this has been going on since 2010. If they really try hard enough, they can make it as good as Dollywood IMO. SF looks like they did a decent job with KK too, to me it looks like the fair board was being a dick.

    The fair board definitely does deserve a share of the blame; however, Six Flags did not do a decent job. Yes, the dynamics of economies will effect attendance, but Six Flags record was removing one attraction after another and added very little. On top of this, the incident with the girl's feet being severed S:TOP was clearly poor management. They also didn't keep the rides in the best of shape. Hart also deserves some of the blame being that some of his selections were duds. Holiday World has managed to have 3 high ranking rollercoasters on the poll lists, KK hasn't had one. Hopefully, he has learned from those mistakes and will be successful should this go through.

  24. Well they did try that approach with Mr. Freeze this year. How many years in a row can you do that before your target audience gets tired of there not being an actual new ride put in?

    How long can you sustain a park's existence by giving them worn out reject rides and neglecting the crowd drawing attractions?


    deathbydinn, marketing has less to do with the truth and more to do with creating excitement for your offering. A new paint job would have little to nothing to do with it, the idea is to tempt the target audience to want to try it again. After having seen the condition of SFOT's Batman and SFFT Goliath (Batman Clone) and ridden both, SFSTL needs some work. Again, between the three, it is hands down the roughest.


    The queue line becomes useful during Fright Fest, it still has its place. My complaint about the queue looking run down IS a reference to the garden area, the theming they removed to the walls to show the contrast of what the outside image was supposed to be to Gotham full with pleasant sounding sound effects contrasted to what it is like on the inside being all run down with the crashed police cruiser, machine gun fire, etc.

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