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Arrow Dynamics fan

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Posts posted by Arrow Dynamics fan


    I don't see Iron Boss happening for a while. They just sunk a lot of money into rehabbing the purple train including painting the chassis. I can see some topper track possibly being tossed it's way soon but that is about all I see happing anytime soon.


    Did they work on the chassis beyond painting it? As much as I would love for those trains to be scrapped, this is a step in the right direction as the Purple one has always given the worst ride. Topper track in my opinion is the way to go on this one.


    Purple got new bearings on all wheels (guide, road, and upstop) and new bushings. Because of this the purple train has to be full when it's used ( all the bearings are tight and slow the train down) and purple is used as the third train. Currently green is the only train that requires no weight in it. So on a day when the line is constantly changing, the yellow will go around with people and green goes empty that way they don't have to deal with lead bags to go up it down a train

    Interesting! I have generally found the yellow to have the best ride. Thanks for sharing the info.

  2. I attended on 06/17 and this was my experience:


    Volcano (9.0 of 10): This has replaced the Batman as my favorite of the inverted layout coasters, very intense and original. Queue was had good shading.


    Intamidator 305 (9.0 of 10): While it does NOT beat Millenium Force in my eyes, it is still an amazing coaster. Very intense. The Queue needed more shading and for some reason was always the hottest.


    Dominator (8.0 of 10): This was not quite as good as Superman Krypton Coaster but way superior than Scream! (SFMM)


    Anaconda (7.5 of 10): This was a nice classic Arrow though not quite as impressive as many others I have ridden. The initial drop would be better with a turn, then straight drop (Vortex, LNM, Ninja, Orient Express, etc.) and I wish they didn't have those turns in the mid air, the swidewinder was much smoother than that of the Ninja (SFSTL). But I enjoyed it.


    Rebel Yell Red (7.0 of 10): Had decent air time and was reasonably smooth.

    Rebel Yell Blue (6.5 of 10): Only difference was it was not quite as smooth as the red side.


    Grizzly (5.5 of 10): This was an okay woodie, it was reasonably smooth, it just wasn't as intense as I hoped.


    Shockwave (5.0 of 10): While this ride was rough, it wasn't unbearably rough unlike Mantis. I was expecting it to be much worse due to its reputation, but I actually was able to enjoy it.


    Avalanche (4.5 of 10): It was smoother than La Vibora but not as intense. It was okay.


    Hurler (4.0 of 10): It was smooth but was just very dull. No real air time to speak of.


    I didn't bother riding the Backlot Stunt Coaster or the Flight of Fear as I rode them back at Kings Island and although decent coasters, not really my thing. Good park overall.


    I don't see Iron Boss happening for a while. They just sunk a lot of money into rehabbing the purple train including painting the chassis. I can see some topper track possibly being tossed it's way soon but that is about all I see happing anytime soon.


    Did they work on the chassis beyond painting it? As much as I would love for those trains to be scrapped, this is a step in the right direction as the Purple one has always given the worst ride. Topper track in my opinion is the way to go on this one.

  4. ^With all due respect, 179 is less than 200 ft which means it is not a "mega" coaster.


    Okay, so I had the pleasure of having lunch with Dave again this week. I think that it's easy to get pessimistic about the park, but I left with a lot of hope. Dave and his team have an incredible plan for the park in terms of just improving what is there. Well, here's some points:

    -They are going to continue to remove as many dead areas as possible, like the Hannibarrels this year.

    -They want to use a lot of small improvements to lighten up the park, and breathe new life into it.

    -They see this period as a conversion from an "old park" to a "new park." The park has held two million without HH, so they want to keep perfecting what is there rather than crazily expanding.


    While many are critical of the "warf" area, I think your opinion will change within the next couple years. The ideas and options for developing and reimagining that area are all great. That entire area of the park should be more refreshed in the next couple of years. As St. Louis' economy has been one of the slowest to recover from the 2008 financial mess, the park will build itself back up.


    By the way, if anyone has an extra $2million we can blow up the admissions area and build it back up. Just message me if you're interested.

    Not what I was hoping for but I understand the reasoning and believe this might be the right direction...for now... From what I hear from the GP, many people consider the park to be "old" even though many of the parks they go to instead are just as old and some have less new attractions. I think that IF they fix up the appearance of the park for a couple years and then follow this up with a major ground breaking attraction, this might be what the park needs to rebuild its reputation. Having top notch attractions is very important to success, but it isn't the only thing. Case and point is SFMM. They have one of my favorite lineup of coasters (second to CP), but my overall opinion of that park is negative. As far as I am concerned, they might as well retheme the whole thing after E. St. Louis or Detroit based on all the empty queue house, the dead plants, run down looking rides and queue houses, and the behavior of some the patrons as well as the some of the staff matched it accordingly. In my opinion, this is why it struggles to get 3 million visitors a year despite the enormous rollercoaster budget it has had. I would much rather have this than SF corporate deciding that the way to combat the Lightning Run and whatever HW gets is to move the something like the Muskrat Scrambler to St. Louis and title it the "Rusty Rat: Lockjaw Twist." If the park can become more appealing from an appearance stand point, this would be helpful.


    I hope whatever we get next that it is NOT the Iron Boss. While I like Outlaw Run and believe I will enjoy Goliath, NTAG did not impress me. I again stress that it does not make sense to transform the coaster that generally has the longest line into something different. It would be more effective to take a coaster that is older and not performing as well and transform it into something better. As much as I like it the way it is, why not a Chance mega lite transformation of the Ninja?

  5. ^First I have an update on the Hannibarrel barrels, 4 or 5 of them have been painted. Brown outside and black inside. They look nice and I can't wait to see them in the park.


    And to answer your question on whether or not there is anything you can do to improve the park and try and get a larger budget for the park. The only thing I can think of is a written letter to corporate. If you keep it polite and make good suggestions they might listen and act on them. However I recemond waiting at least another year. The 2013 season was the first year of big change and some of the issues you have my get resolved in the next couple years

    Nice. Thank you for the suggestions, I will be sure to write them after a year or so, and I assure you it will be very polite and will have good suggestions.

  6. ^ Exactly! Whatever you all think about corporate, I know I probably can't change your views. However, when it comes to our particular park's upper management, we are right up there with Holiday World, and I am very close to the Holiday World management as well. Dave and I spent a while in the front mall just looking at a couple of discrepancies in the facades. He actually fixed them. There are so many examples of this. It was a lower level seasonal employee that suggested keeping some of the Hannibarrels to turn into benches. Another thing that I don't think people fully know about is how charitable the park is. Every year, the park puts on an event for St. Louis Children's Hospital that raises over $500,000, and this year we're working on some kind of system in terms of donating super hero capes to St. Louis Children's Hospital. So if you don't agree with me about corporate, that's fine, but it would be horrible not to give credit where credit is due to the park's management.

    Thank you HWFan, SFZIP, and TNT for your insights. While I still don't agree with all their decisions, as stated they have improved. I didn't know about the charitable part of the park even though I get some of their e-mails being a season pass holder. Being charitable is truly a wonderful thing and should be done for the sake of helping others in need as the true intent, having said this I would think that it would be helpful if they were to speak more to this (not in the bragging kind of way which comes off as bragging but as a more humble yet known approach). This does wonders for public relations especially if it is done as a "Help us meet our goal." Then a "we were able to meet our goal thanks to the generosity of our partrons," in the follow up. It is good for PR.


    My intent is not to slam the park's local management (yes, in the past I have gone off now and then, but I am working on trying to be more understanding and filtering my statements). I understand now that many of these decisions are not Dave's choice which is very unfortunate. As I have said, I am impressed with the changes I have seen for the better (fright fest, rides being painted, etc.). Using the Hannibarrels as benches sounds like a great idea as it will be nice to have that connection to my childhood once again. I believe the park can be more and want it to be more. My question then is there anything we the patrons can do the help Dave to have more say in the local decisions and increasing their budget?


    What about the new S&S 4D coasters or the new Free Fly X. Those look like they could fit in a smaller space and either would be a completely new experience for the park?

  7. HWFan, thank you for answering my questions. While I don't agree with many of the decisions the corporate level has made, I will agree that they do seem to be improving slowly but surely. I will also agree that the strides SFSTL has made particularly in the Fright Fest each year is head over heels superior than each previous year and have been very pleased to see a number of the suggestions I have made through the customer feedback implemented. I do understand the fact that Disney/Universal's level of theming would be far beyond SFSTL's budget and would cause the cost of tickets to become unfeasible as we are talking about a park with a MUCH smaller audience than those parks. Having said this, have they considered to try to compare their theming efforts and attractions in comparison to their more local competition such as Silver Dollar City which doesn't have theming on the scale of Disney/Universal but seems to have a clearer and more defined feel? Even if some rides do not have the budget for much theming is there a reason why the park on more recent attractions such as SkyScreamer and Boomerang didn't develop original names that actually fit the theming area? This in my perspective is some of the problem because it starts to make the parks atmosphere inconsistent. Is this a decision that is out of Dave's hands (a corporate decision) or (with no disrespect intended) are they having difficulties coming up with names to fit the new attractions?

  8. Awesome! Thank you very much for sharing this! A couple questions:


    1. Is there anything we can do to help make coasters like this become a reality at any of our parks?


    2. Do you know if they are open to letting normal people tour their facility (I understand that getting to ride that coaster is reserved for park owners and members of the press for many reasons including the considerable cost of operating it, but can normal people have tours or is that also reserved for park owners and members of the press)?


    3. Does this set up prevent the sometimes painful experience found in the Intamin's 4D models where you get stuck upside down due to uneven weight distribution and get slammed upside down into the restraint.


    I agree with the don't drive out of magic Mountain to get lunch as they are a little drive away. If it's hot then the ac of the car and the ac of the place you eat may be a good reason. If you don't like the food at magic Mountain. Then you can just eat a lunch or dinner in your car... as it's faster then driving too far.


    True, the only problem is the walk to your car takes forever unless their is some closer exit/re-entry point than I was aware of.

  10. Even Danny Rogers believes that this project is a bad idea now.




    Got a call this AM from the IDB you would think after all the park has been through and as bad as it now is inside it should just be bulldozed but no again someone must be found to rebuild it! Good Luck who ever, your going to need it!




    The real question is why would it be a good idea? What does it have going for it? It has failed twice and spent one and a half times as long closed as it was opened. It's a sunk cost.

  11. I'm glad to see the progress that they are making. I find the idea of combining their wooden coasters to be very unlikely. As much as I would like to see a new coaster war for the longest wooden coaster, I think they would need to start from scratch instead of using Twisted Twins. While I will acknowledge that the longest doesn't necessarily mean it also needs to be the tallest, the Twisted Twins are on the short side. Part of what makes the Beast fun beyond the length is it still one of the taller coasters. Also looking at the intensity that is Outlaw Run and many coasters made in recent years, they would need a much steeper drops. Given Ed's track record of going for being one of the first to offer something and going for lower cost attractions, I don't find this realistic but I hope he is able to make something impressive nevertheless.

  12. The only point when this could have possibly worked was shortly after the flooding. It is too late for this park to have any hope for revival. The point where this park could have been viable was when Astroworld was closed. Now that they are looking at getting another park in Houston, the window of opportunity has since closed. On top of this, why bother? The MegaZeph never stood out when it was built and never was able to attract enough attendance to make the park profitable enough under its original owners and with a Batman and other Six Flags additions was not enough attendance for Six Flags to justify reopening. The only thing unique was their dark ride. The creators of Kings Island understood that they couldn't grow if they kept the old park location where it kept flooding and their original park was at least a proven success story. As much as I would love to see this park reopen, the longer things sit dormant, the more vandalism happens, the more things get stolen, the more the wildlife takes over things, the more anyone would have to invest in fixing things before they could even begin to invest in making it marketable. I'm sorry but Jazzland is the new Rocky Point/Idora Park/Lincoln Park (Darthmouth)/etc. that will sit until it collapses. Having said this, I HOPE AND WANT to be proven wrong.

  13. -Here is the story Dave gave me about theming, especially when it comes to Batman & Mr. Freeze: When Time Warner owned Six Flags, their goal was to turn it into their version of Disney/Universal with the same level of theming. However, based on geography and other factors, it didn't really work out, so when they sold the company to Premier Parks, they went another direction towards thrills and basically the amusement park vs. a theme park.

    HWFan, I want to start off with thanking you for sharing this information. It is neat to have more of the inside scope. One thing I perhaps do not understand is why they see this strategy as a failure. Looking at the attendance numbers from this time, it would appear to me that this period had higher attendance which is the desired outcome for a business such as this. Why do they see the other direction as being more successful when they are ending up with less attendance. Also, with respect, could you explain why Dave or Premier sees their other direction "towards thrills" as being what they were delivering to the consumer attractions that were not breaking new records for the park or the local region as what they were doing during the Time Warner area. In my view, this was stepping away from theming and thrills changing their direction to averageness which in my perspective has hurt them and let their competition catch up and in some cases surpassing them. Could you explain things from their perspective?


    Back to the NKK, does anyone else feel that this new coaster might actually turn out to be the Magic Springs Skyloop? I know the price tag is $7mil but I haven't been able to shake that notion over the last week or so....

    That's what I have been fearing he might add. With the X-Coaster costing around $4 million when it was built it would seem to fit the budget and if it is what Hart has used on one of his other parks, he is likely to use it again if he felt it was a good move. Look no further than his choice to use a SLC at Magic Springs after his experience running KK.

  15. Even with the Holiday event aside... Six Flags compared to Silver Dollar City... Really??? They are two very different experiences. SDC has much more to offer and appeals to a wider range of people.

    This is precisely the issue. SDC is a park that puts the atmosphere and theming before nearly everything else and they are consistent in it. Many the employees wear outfits to fit the theming of the park Six Flags doesn't do anything like this aside from street characters during Fright Fest. Six Flags tends to follow what is popular for the time and doesn't keep things very consistent. Also SDC is first and foremost a family park with a heavy emphasis on shows that is growing into having more very well chosen rollercoasters, Six Flags can't decide what they are supposed to be and ends up being neither and adds random coasters on impulse. Just some food for thought, if KI tried a Holiday in the park and it didn't work, why would it work in St. Louis?


    The only thing that occurred to me is I personally thought that they could have extended Fright Fest until last week since it was only Nov 2nd & 3rd.

  16. The B&M roar is loud but is no where near unbearable (Superman Escape from Krypton). I'm very glad to hear that they are retheming the Flight Deck. Having two rides with Flight as the first word in the name makes it all to easy to mix them up. On top of this allows the ride to have a true retheme instead of just de-theming which is what the Flight Deck felt like which is a shame for such a great coaster. Do we know if they are planning on doing anything to the trains to make them resemble the ones on the original Bat?

  17. The chances of WoF ever getting a giga coaster are slim to none. The park is far too small to receive a giga coaster, Cedar Fair won't invest a capital investment of that size into a park that small in the chain. WoF can still get some amazing rides, but I highly doubt you'll ever see a giga coaster at any of Cedar Fair's smaller parks. (WoF, Valleyfair, Michigan's Adventure, Dorney Park and Great America)


    This argument makes no sense to me. All those parks you've mentioned besides Great America have received huge rides in the past from Cedar Fair.


    WOF got Mamba, at the time one of the largest steel coasters in the world.

    MIA got Shivering Timbers, one of the most massive wooden coasters in the world.

    ValleyFair got WIld Thing, at the time one of the largest steel coasters in the world.

    Dorney got Steel Force, at the time one of the largest steel coasters in the world.

    Dorney got Hercules in the 80s, and a 150 foot wooden coaster drop at the time was insane.


    I just don't get why any of these parks aren't a candidate for another huge coaster, such as a giga.


    Say what you want about Cedar Fair, but they certainly give just about every major park in their chain a massive coaster every once in a while, however big or small the park may be.


    And to say KD is a "bigger" park or somehow more worthy of a giga than any other in the chain doesn't make any sense to me. Richmond has just over 200,000 people. KD is a regional park just like any other Cedar Fair park besides maybe CP. They plunked a giga in their, and I could imagine them installing one just about anywhere else.


    If anything their giga installations have been pretty random over the past few years! CP having a record breaker in 2000 makes since, but I don't think anyone saw Intimidator coming to KD more than a year before it arrived. And CW just had gotten a very similar coaster 4 years before Leviathan!

    I understand your position and can sympathize. Having said this, using the past example of the addition of the Morgan Hypers to WoF, Valleyfair, and Michigan Adventure is quite a different from making the suggestion of adding a Giga for a number of reasons:


    1. The Morgan price tag vs. Intamin/B&M price tag: The Morgan Hypers are some of the least expensive hypers ever made with the Mamba & Steel Force costing $10mil ($14,588,722.74 & $14,364,969.33 in modern money)to build and the Wild Thing costing $14mil ($20,892,836.20 in modern money) to build despite being some of the longest steel coasters ever built. In comparison, B&M's hypers-Giga cost range from $20 mil-26 mil, Intamin seems to be around $25 million. What you are talking about is investing twice as much as they did before hand on parks that struggle to get 1 million visitors a year. Being that Mamba didn't duplicate for Cedar Point what Magnum XL-200 did, it would make sense that they would be reluctant. In fact their lowest attendance record happened a few years after the addition of the Mamba though that was due to removing some popular attractions without immediate replacements, still the point stands that this and the other Morgan Hypers didn't exactly make these the next destination park as they would need a lot more than one coaster to pull this off.


    2. The Mamba is already the largest completed track rollercoaster for Missouri and still ranks as one of the tallest for the region. Adding a giga on top of a hyper, is doubling down on an area that the park isn't lacking when it is lacking in other areas more flats, fixing existing attractions (Timber Wolf), filling in gaps in attraction offerings (modern Mine Train type coaster), and adding something unique. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a Giga in the local area, but that isn't what the park needs the most. When I attend WoF, I go to ride the Mamba, Patriot, & Prowler. The Timber Wolf has never impressed me as it comes off as slow and weak, the Spinning Dragons are not for me (I don't like spinning coasters), and Boomerang, well...I've ranted enough about how I feel about it...I like some of the old school flats, but the park needs more to do especially now that SDC finally has a balanced line up of top notch coasters.


    3. There are awesome coasters that would make the park stand out for less cost. The Full Throttle only cost around $6 million and a coaster like it would provide the park with a launched coaster offering to compete against Mr. Freeze and Powder Keg. Assuming that the price hasn't increased too drastically, one of the next gen S&S free fly could really stand out. This would prevent them from putting all their resources in one area and instead allow a wider investment for further park improvements. Heck, even a Driving Coaster would be a better fit. Even though it would be a little more expensive than the Mamba, it would be more affordable than a Giga and offer a different experience than anything in the local area.


    Concerning the parks that did get the Gigas, while I don't quite understand why KD got a Giga and KI didn't, the fact is the attendance for these parks are around 2-3 times higher than WoF. While I agree that CF should invest more into WoF, VF, and MA, they need to focus on smaller attractions as that is what is holding them back, not so much lacking a giga.

  18. Six Flags St. Louis has several long ones. While it does make some sense for Boss and Mr. Freeze since the lines pretty much go straight to the station, it is super annoying on Batman The Ride since you are forced to zigzag back and forth through a park, then take the longest possible route around to the station entrance. When I visited (a Sunday in July), the ride was only a station wait but it took at least five minutes just to get from the entrance to the station. I can't imagine the park ever gets busy enough to have more than a 45 minute wait for this coaster, but based on the queue length it seems like it was built for a 2+ hour wait.

    Back in the day, the Batman queue was not unnecessary. When it was new they needed the full length of the queue line. Nowdays, they could safely shorten it.


    The Flight Deck and X2 have to be the worst I can think of.

  19. Two train operation on a ride that only lasts a minute and a half from start to finish is going to move the line quicker than two train operation on a three minute plus ride. Some of you say popularity is an issue with American Thunder, but most people I talk to prefer it over Eagle, and almost everyone prefers it to The Boss.

    Granted, the American Thunder is a shorter ride and will have the trains run through more often can help the ride provide more riders per hour than the Screamin' Eagle; however, many times the American Thunder doesn't even have the entire train filled on days that there is still at least a good 10-15 minute wait on the Screamin' Eagle. Although there are times when the Screamin' Eagle can be almost a walk on, they are not nearly as frequent. Also remember that the Boss can have up to 3 trains in operation and the line is often 20 minutes or more. The American Thunder might be liked better by enthusiasts as reflected in the coaster ratings, but the Boss and Eagle have consistently longer lines (especially the Boss). The crowd that rides the American Thunder is generally younger and the Boss is generally H.S. or older despite both having the same height restriction.

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