Dr. M

I was a really timid kid as far as being alone and being in the dark. Got scared really easily. Heights was fine, never scared of coasters. But I couldn't handle the dark, even today I sleep with a nightlight on. Needless to say, Knoebels' Haunted Mansion did not sit well with me. I was maybe eight or nine, just me and my mom at the park. I spent the rest of the trip in a daze. I mean I was seriously shell-shocked, I could no longer enjoy anything else at the park, for the next two nights I cried because I was so scared. I remember my mom calling my dad from the Knoebels campground just so I could blubber over the phone to him and he could try to console me. For years afterward, every time I smelled that distinctive wood-and-oil smell the hair on the back of my neck stood up on end. It's only in the past five years or so that I've ridden it again, and now I love it. Not because it doesn't scare me, but because it still does, especially when you ride it on a bright and sunny day and your eyes don't have time to adjust and the darkness is deep and enveloping. My connection to the ride is very personal, it's my only childhood experience that I could describe as being truly traumatic.

I actually prefer the middle seats, they slightly detract from the twisty but they're significantly easier on the thighs, better for rerides.

^And as I said, it doesn't matter, because underneath that thin strip of metal is a piece of wood. The rails are wooden. The rails on topper track are not pieces of wood covered in thin strips of steel. They are completely steel (and concrete). The point isn't what the wheels are literally touching, it's what is holding the train in the air. Normal wood coaster track= big piece of wood, topper track= big piece of steel.

^I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. Look at what the wheels are running along. All of those layers of wood do not go between the up-stop wheels and the running wheels. In fact, the only thing any of the wheels are touching, is that red steel beam. See? Harder to tell because the steel in this case is brown instead of red. Now look at normal wooden coaster track: The rails are wooden, the up-stop wheels are running along wood the entire time. Even if there's another thin strip of metal under the rails that we can't see, those are wooden beams between the sets of wheels, that's what the track is made out of, that's what the train is running along. Get the difference? You can call topper track wooden, but the rails, what the train is actually running on, are completely steel. Now am I missing something here? Isn't what the rails are made out of more important than what's sitting beneath the rails? That's the only thing the train actually touches. Regardless, the track is literally just as much steel as it is wood. That's why they're able to do inversions with it. As it's been said before, there is no governing body determining what coaster is wood and what is steel. If somebody looks at Goliath and says, "Well, polyurethane wheels running along steel rails... with a dive loop (!)... yeah, I'm pretty sure that's a steel coaster," how could you possibly argue with them? "This highway is a dirt road!" "What are you talking about? It's completely paved!" "Yeah, but there's dirt beneath the pavement!" Unless I'm completely wrong about something. Again, feel free to correct me, I'm no expert. Bringing this up is unnecessary, but, make that red steel beam circular instead of flat, remove the pieces of wood (which the train never touches), and what do you get? And it'd still be pretty rough and out-of-control feeling, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

All of the Intamin coasters have polyurethane wheels. So does a GCI coaster over in Germany. So there isn't really a wheel argument to be made IMO. Outlaw Run will probably be a bit more out of control feeling, but I think this coaster is going to move through the track so fast that you'll never notice the difference. I know I don't need to point this out, but prefabs have traditional track save for how it's manufactured, that's why their status isn't contested despite the wheels. On an RMC it's one less thing it has in common with normal wooden coasters, so for some that might be the line in the sand. No wheels on any wooden roller coaster ever touch the wood. All traditional wooden tracked coasters run on a thin steel rail attached to a wooden running board, but the wheels never come into contact with the wood. The upstop wheels run along wood, don't they? If you think about the rails themselves, what's between the upstop wheels and the, er, wheels on top, then on traditional coasters it's wood, with a thin layer of steel. On RMCs, it's 100% steel. Am I wrong about any of this?

Anyone else hoping that with the new coaster we also get a nice big "Welcome to Knoebels" sign at the entrance, or the place where most people enter? I know it's a little awkward since the park doesn't have any kind of fence around it, but a big sign over the main midway would really up the presentation and excitement factor when you first get there. Right now it's like "oh hey, it's the pavilions... oh hey, it's Skloosh... oh hey, I'm in Knoebels".

I've long had the idea for a double-decker carousel, interesting that it's already been done. Anyway I love any carousel with a real working band organ (preferably well-maintained and in tune). Knoebels' has three. Pretty hard to beat that.

Yeah the Zephyr is tiny, possibly the tiniest park train I've been on (though Kneoebels' is pretty tiny as well). Funny, never thought I'd see this ride get its own thread. It's one of the oldest rides at the park, right? I love how it's so futuristic and streamlined, unlike most amusement park trains that are so antique-y.

You know what, forget it. Clearly nobody is willing to actually read what I'm typing, so why bother? No, whether or not it's a steel coaster doesn't affect how good a ride it is, so the discussion is not worth this amount of aggravation.

Oh man oh man, you gotta not say this stuff and get my hopes all raised again. That would be so freaking cool, as unlikely as it is. I know just how they'd announce it too. They'd post the first POV during testing and write "Oh my, it looks like that lift hill is running awfully fast..." Technical question, do all lifts like this have two chains running side-by-side like Fahrenheit?

It's possible some artificial weathering/darkening could be sprayed on after construction is finished.

NOBODY SAID THAT. NOBODY. The only comment I made about the supports is I'd prefer wooden coasters to have traditional wooden coaster supports. If anybody has ever disputed whether or not Goliath is wooden, it's due to the construction of the track and the wheels. I don't believe we've ever had a topper track coaster with polyurethane wheels before. That's the difference between this and Outlaw Run. Are the wheels even going to be touching wood, at any point? Or is it seriously polyurethane wheels running on a thick cement-filled steel beam that happens to be mounted on several layers of wood? If that's the case, then you'd have to be crazy not to admit there's an argument to be made. I'm not even making it, I'm just saying it's there. I'm not trying to offend anybody but I think people are being pretty stupid about this.

^No MCBR is always a plus, I believe this one doesn't have one unless I missed something. Should definitely be a fun, zippy ride.

Yeah, but it has steel track. It sits on top of some wood, but everything within the wheel assembly is steel, just like, say, a steel coaster. I don't really care if anyone thinks it is one way or another, but the attitude of "there's no argument! I'm obviously right!" is silly. Wooden casters were built one way for a century. Now a ride like this is being built in a completely different way, of course there's room for questioning it. Nope, no room for debate here, if you disagree with the general consensus you are ignorant and silly. You might as well call the sky purple.

Again, not arguing that it isn't a wooden coaster. Just wanted to clear up the Mitch Hawker thing.

^Seems like something simple they could add that would help make up for the lack of launch.

If this is true, then will that poll count Goliath as steel? It's track and supports are partially steel and the wheels are polyurethane? And I don't believe anybody is contesting that at this point. Has anybody said, "Oh no, now Goliath is a steel coaster!"? My point is there's more that makes a wooden coaster FEEL like a wooden coaster than just what the track is made out of, and the support structure is an enormous part of that. The wheels are a smaller but still important part. RMC has gone way further in blurring the lines here, and for some that's a disappointment. As for calling it a "hybrid", that bothers me too since there is no wooden coaster that doesn't have some steel in its construction as well. So what makes it a hybrid?

Just... like... a steel coaster! Also, when you're upside down on a coaster, do you EVER think to look up at the ground, at the moment you're inverted? I certainly don't. Surely they must have known how they were building the lift before construction started. Anyone else find it strangely calculating that they should release this info now, shortly before construction on the lift starts and they can no longer keep it a secret? Were they fearing a negative backlash?

^I always thought that last twist never rode quite as crazy as it looks. It does take you by surprise though. Skyrush is definitely the twistiest coaster I've ever ridden (Maverick being a close second). This ride is defined by its twists, when the ride is over your biggest impression is being thrown from side to side, hard, over and over again. The massive airtime didn't even occur to me until after the second time I rode it. I think this is what takes most people by surprise the first time they ride it. The twists look so shallow and drawn-out from the ground, but it's the blazing speed you're moving at that makes them so violent. It's also why I'd never recommend a wing seat to first-time riders.

^You mean there haven't been violent Hatfield vs. McCoy-style skirmishes taking place on the park grounds? 'Cause that's what I'd been picturing this whole time.

Steel Supports Steel Supports Steel Supports ... can we stop whining now, PLEASE??? And while the coaster IS a wood coaster, who cares anyway? As long as it's a great ride why does it matter? Hey now, I'm not one of the ones saying that steel supports make it a steel coaster. Don't lump me in with that crowd. What I'm saying is that wooden coaster design has a tradition and history to it, that's longer (and more distinct) than that of steel coasters. In my eyes RMC managed with Outlaw Run to both honor that tradition while pushing the technology into new territory. I'm talking about the spirit of wooden coasters, and every decision they make is either in keeping with that spirit or it isn't. And this support decision is too big a departure for me. Part of what makes a coaster a coaster is how it looks. For as long as wooden coasters have existed, they've always had that web of wood (or steel) beneath the track, it's what makes zooming through the super structure during the second half of the ride so much fun. Imagine for a moment Stormrunner, with those same supports, those same elements, but with a track that's got a couple layers of wood in it. RMC could probably do this. You'll tell me it's a wooden coaster, I'd tell you you're right but what's the point? It looks like a steel, rides like a steel (except for maybe a bit of added roughness), but you'd say "Wow look how far wooden coasters have come!" Well sorry, but my perfect vision for the future of wooden coasters is not to have them become as much like steel as technologically possible. If you don't think any of this is important, that's fine, we'll agree to disagree and move on. I still think Goliath will be a great ride regardless. And yes, putting the wood/steel issue aside for a moment, the lift hill totally looks like something out of a steampunk future retro fantasyland, it's an incredible piece of architecture (in the renderings at least). Honestly if this was an ibox coaster I'd have nothing to complain about, no wood coaster pretensions would even exist.

The name combined with the long track before the lift combined with the choice of manufacturer makes me strongly suspect this was originally intended to be a launch coaster like Wicked, but they had budget problems at the last minute (and stuck with the name since they already registered the trademark). A vertical lift has a unique thrill all its own so I'm not that disappointed, but it does take away some of the ride's uniqueness. I wish we could, like, hold a fundraiser to get it to be a launcher. I wonder if it would be possible to convert it later on if they decide they have the money.

Sorry but I don't see this as an improvement at all. Even if the structure is steel, I like how traditional wood coaster supports look. I liked how the zero g stall was buried within the ride, now it's just out in the open like a steel coaster. I mean, why even make it look like that, why not just use big steel beams like on Skyrush? Wouldn't it save on some material costs? Well, like it or not, one thing is for sure. We will never again have a coaster structure as towering and magnificent as SOB's lift hill/turn/drop. Hate on the ride all you want, but you have to admit that 200 ft tall wall of wood was awe-inspiring. Also, the debate may continue, but I honestly don't think RMC cares if they're making wooden coasters at this point or not. Aren't we basically saying that if there's a slab of wood imbedded in the track somewhere, we can call it a woodie? I'm just not sure anymore, we may reach a point where the line between them is so fine it's totally meaningless.

^Oh, Thank You. Looks like the World's Smallest Airtime Hill to Me.

That's what I'm saying! I was laughing out loud trying to imagine some of those old ladies actually riding the stupid things, who knew bumper boats were so popular with the geriatric crowd. Some have pointed out that many of the complainers are probably getting bumper boats mixed up with the motor boats, which is actually a unique family attraction (I wouldn't be sorry to see those go either, but to each their own). Also I wish some of the parents who say how disappointed their kids will be would actually talk to their kids about which they'd prefer, a coaster or boats. When they see that cobra roll from the parking lot, bumper boats will be the furthest thing from their minds.