tororific

I don't know why Holiday World would bother with the complications, maintenance, and cost of a launch, but what do I know? Maybe the launch technology on rides like Helix has achieved enough consistency that it isn't a maintenance headache and the incremental costs of building a launch are a wash with the costs of building a 150 foot lift hill? But I doubt it. I am really perplexed by the "BIG" comments when coupled with B&M -- that speaks to a $20 -$25M ride. Even Wild Eagle topped $20M, and it is not a 'BIG" ride. I don't see how the math could work to spend $20M for a park that pulls in 1 million guests a year. Something is missing here. Curious to see what the final product cost and design ends up being, but my guess is that the ride itself will not top $15M in cost.

I am feeling very optimistic about this ride after the blog. It really does sound like it is going to be a very unique and massive ride. Still having a hard time getting my head around a B&M being the manufacturer, but it sure looks like it will be. Personally, I am hoping for a very low to the ground, LONG ride, racing through the trees, with tons of bunny hops and turns, using the terrain.

From the little we have heard, that seems most probable, rather than a catastrophic failure of the harness. I recall that a developmentally disable boy was somehow able to get under the harness on PGA's drop tower, which I also thought was an impossibility, given the design. We shall see.

I have to say I am surprised if this turns out to be a B&M. I didn't think it would be fit the budget for the reasons that others have posted above. Or what B&M could fit under that budget would be fairly small and short. NOW, assuming that steel is a major component of the cost (as it should be), maybe if the design is a very low to the ground, terrain hugging ride, you could probably get some decent length out of it. we shall see.

Possible. In the spanish clip interviewing witnesses posted above, the man being interviewed said that the boy was large proportioned and that the seat belt was undone. I am not familiar with this ride or its restraints, but could it be that if the boy was very large and the restraint was not pulled down very far, could the force of that last turn send him sliding under it? (Not to pick on large people, but, historically, when people have been ejected from coaster trains, it has usually been because the restraint did not fit/ was not designed for the larger proportions or the different distribution of weight, rather than a true mechanical failure of the restraint).

I like the Cyclone, but it will be much improved as a ride experience with a RMC makeov

Yup. 6 if you count both sides. Capacity was over 4,000 per hour. In 1984 Six Flags took ownership of the park and the ride had a minor collision. They said no more 3 trains per side. wow, that would be great if they still ran that. The capacity now is terrible and although i like the ride, i often avoid it because i can't stand the slow-moving line.

Imagine how boring the world would be if we all agreed with this opinion.

How is that even possible? lol It's not. I don't believe it!

You should be confused, because i am stupid. I was thinking of Kings Dominion, which i now geographically relocated to another state. But the point remains: I find it interesting that these relatively "smaller" parks are getting some massive coasters in comparison to parks like SFMM, SFGam, and even SFGadv. You probably should know that Kings Dominion and Carowids aren't small parks. KD is 400 acres and Carowinds is over 300. SFGAdv of course is the largest park in the world, but SFMM isn't even 300. Yes, they have more coasters, but in terms of land and attractions, both of these parks are bigger than Magic Mountain and Great America. But you also have to keep in mind that this is Six Flags we're talking about. They in no way are going to build a coaster at a park that costs over $20 million. Cedar Fair on the other hand is willing to do it! sorry, I am not communicating well. When I referred to "smaller" parks, it was not intended as a reference on geographic size, but rather on attendance and (presumed) profitability, or at least revenue. Obviously, Cedar Fair has a different model than Six Flags -- that's what I find "interesting" (i.e., their willingness to put some massive, very expensive rides into their relatively smaller sister parks -- we don't see Six flags putting these rides in their "major" parks, i.e., SFGadV, SFMM or SFGam, much less putting them into SFStlouis, although there was that cool period when Darien Lake and SFNE and SFA were the first ones getting those cool new Intamin hypers)

well, it goes to my obsessive point: X-Flight gives the appearance of a more-marketable ride -- it looks futuristic, it's an all-new design, it's gimmicky (not necessarily in a bad way), and it looks super cool. On the surface, it would seem to give a bigger bang for the buck. But it won't, long-term. (That said, I don't want to minimize other important factors that parks need to consider, like diversity -- a big selling point from B&M to the parks is that a wingrider is unlike any other coaster they presently have, and they can market it as a "new one-of-a-kind" ride. I understand a park not wanting to have 7 rides all like El Toro -- I just can't understand not having one of them!)

I have never heard a satisfactory answer to this mystery. It can't be the maintenance issues -- I think they barely exist, and are certainly less headaches than a GCI or any other true wooden. I am sure they are not cheap, but neither is B&M and other conventional steel coasters. Maybe it's partly the antiquated notion that a "wooden" coaster should cost you an X multiple of a comparatively-sized steel coaster, and the perhaps the prefabs' cost structure is closer to a major steel coaster expenditure. So, from that limited apples-to-oranges comparison, a park would see the Intamin prefabs as competing with the GCI's or other traditional wooden coasters, and wonder "why would I pay double for same-looking ride?" In more recent times, maybe parks figure Rocky mountain is a cheaper option, but El Toro has been sitting around unduplicated for the past 8 years -- and it's the poster child of a ride beloved by both the enthusiasts and the so-called GP. Again, I think some of it goes to the comments above about park personnel thinking that a new, high-tech steel ride will have greater impact than a wood-looking coaster, so you chose an wingrider or a full throttle or even a gate keeper instead, because those have the appearance of something new, modern -- something of 'impact.' But long-term, an El Toro will smoke them all in guest satisfaction. But if the accounting analysis is simply limited to what percentage increase in attendance you got from Year 0 to Year 1 (the year you installed the coaster), then the needle points more toward the more-easy-to-market new gimmick coasters -- a short-sighted way to do it, but it's hard to quantify the ride's impact in later years.

yeah, I have come to enjoy X-Flight more over time. Goliath will annihilate it, based upon the things that I like in coasters.

Ninja does have its moments. I love Ninja, it was my very first roller coaster at 7 years old. It scared the poo-poo out of me lol Ninja is a really fun ride, particularly the way it keeps building in intensity as it goes along. Sad that it is one of the few remaining quality Arrow suspendeds. i will never forgive BGW for getting rid of the Big Bad Wolf - that was a great ride.

These are good comments. In my view, part of the problem is that many of fine folks in charge of ride acquisitions (and PR departments) are overly concerned with "records" and gimmicks, thinking that those are the necessary marketing angles to have a successful coaster. Now, to some extent, they may be right in the short-term sense: marketing a coaster as the "tallest, fastest, etc." probably does give you a bump in gate in the initial season that you are unlikely to get from a non-flashy coaster in terms of records from the outset. BUT, the longer-term view is that a great ride sustains repeat visits over a much longer term period than a gimmicky ride or one that is a record-breaker, but otherwise not a great ride. Not that record-breaking is mutually exclusive with being a great ride -- but they are not necessarily the same. I suspect that a ride like Maverick has been substantially more profitable to Cedar Point than a ride like Mantis or Mean Streak or Wicked Twister (all record breakers) because it is a great ride experience that sticks in people's minds as one of the rides they want to experience again in a future visit. I am often confused when parks end up with dud coasters because it doesn't seem that hard to develop a successful ride. All you have to do is visit other parks and observe which rides are the most popular ones over time and why. It's rarely gimmick driven -- it's almost always a ride with good drops, air, and pacing. For instance, I remain utterly baffled why NO park in North America has made note of El Toro's popularity and cloned a version of it elsewhere. Imagine if Cedar Point had put in an El Toro instead of Gatekeeper (not that I think Gatekeeper was a bad move). El Toro-clone might even be a little cheaper. But I guarantee you that the proportion of visitors seeking repeat rides in day and wanting to return to the park over the long haul would be significantly higher with that type of ride. I will go to my grave completely perplexed by the absence of any more Intamin prefabs given their raging success in every installation.

Here's the lowdown as I remember: Texas Giant opens at SFOT in 1990 to rave reviews. Within weeks, the ride is literally ripping itself apart. During Coaster Con 1990, cars are falling apart; one morning before ERT, a trim brake appears on the first drop. Halfway through the convention, the front of the blue train is put on the white train as car #1 of white is falling apart... you get the picture. Cedar Point wants a "Texas Giant" but after hearing how the ride is ripping itself apart, they want a tamer version. Footers were already poured... So they changed to profile of the ride to have half the number of hills. TG had around 23 hills when new, MS had 12. It was a great ride in 1991; fast and very smooth. The whole section from drop #3 to the mid course brake was incredible (that entire area was later tamed down). Compared to TG 1990, though, it was a baby ride. Yeah, that pretty much covers the chronology and why Mean Streak was a neutered version of the Texas Giant. But, with all due respect, Mean Streak was never a "great" ride. Even in 1991, it had virtually no air, and very few forces (or at least very few pleasurable ones). Even the section after drop #3 was fairly uninspiring -- more air and good times could be found on Blue Streak's bunny hills and turnaround. It just has always been a poorly designed ride from day one -- and the coaster polls and general public have confirmed it time after time. I have never met a human being that has claimed that Mean Streak is their favorite ride (or even in the top 3) just at Cedar Point, much less across parks.

You should be confused, because i am stupid. I was thinking of Kings Dominion, which i now geographically relocated to another state. But the point remains: I find it interesting that these relatively "smaller" parks are getting some massive coasters in comparison to parks like SFMM, SFGam, and even SFGadv.

I agree that Cedar Point likes "record breaking" coasters, even if in subcategories. It would not be very difficult to RMC / Iron Horse Mean Streak to be the tallest, fastest "wooden" coaster in the world to take the record away from Goliath. You already have a 160ft. hill structure built -- would take much to punch that up by 26 ft. to get the tallest, longest, fastest drop. You could even go 40ft to be the only 200 ft woodie. Not sure what all the collateral consequences would be on the remainder of the ride (i.e., would be very expensive if you needed to increase all the other hills by 20-40ft feet, even with overbanks). That would be an investment that I could see Cedar Point going after to get enough marketing bang-for-the-buck.

I am confused how both smaller parks in the Carolinas can each now have 300 ft gigas but a park like SFGam or SFMM doesn't, despite significantly greater attendance and profitability?

Completely different levels of complexity and costs. An LIM coaster like Maverick is significantly more complicated to deal with than retracking Voyage or the simply LIM systems on Wildebeest and Mammoth. Now, observe as they announced a Helix-like ride .. . .... If I were Holiday World's general manager, I would do an Intamin mega-lite or something that is reliable, a crowd pleasure, and relatively maintenance-lite (in the steel realm). And for all these Holiday World won't work with intamin again thoughts, Cedar point went right back to intamin after the nightmare that was Top Thrill Dragster.....

agreed, but those launch coasters are very expensive (comparatively) and maintenance headaches, particularly for a smaller park, I would think?

As much as I like GateKeeper I have to agree with this, the $25-28 mil CP dropped on GateKeeper could've gotten them an RMC treatment for Mean Streak, plus another smaller attraction like a Premier custom launcher, or a Euro fighter etc; In terms of receiving a return on investment, I remember Kinzel on record saying TTD was the biggest mistake he'd ever made. Maybe at the time it was considering all the problems but GK to me was a bigger mistake (even though he didn't make it) just because it was so damn expensive and will never get the attention/hype/fan appreciation of TTD. Yeah, I thought that too initially. But it is actually a great all-purpose ride for Cedar Point. Behind dramatically enhancing the entrance and making a formally abandoned part of the park feel renewed (and distribute the crowds better), it's a people-pleaser coaster that actually cuts across a pretty wide section of coaster fans. It has GREAT capacity and so can handle Cedar Point summer lines (unlike TTD). I think it ended up being a good investment.

Actually, you could use the old (though still used) parking lot located directly behind Gemini. It would help make the layout a more out-and-back, though it would be a little narrow. Maybe -- but there really is a ton of land where Mean Streak presently is -and when you figure how much steeper lift hills (and drops) are nowadays, you could do a ton with Intamin or an RMC woodie in that area. I suppose at the end of the day Cedar Point will have to determine whether spending $10M on an RMC re-model and marketing it as Meaner Streak or something like that will give it the same bang per dollar as tearing it down and dumping $20-$25M in a world class new woodie....

The ideal solution would be a tear down and an Intamin woodie, although it would need to be more twister style than an El Toro out and back given the land layout. The most realistic solution is an RMC makeover, which would be awesome.

Nice report and good photos. I will always have a soft spot for Magnum. It's up there with Colossus as rides that were "awe inspiring" when they opened because they seemed larger than life compared to what was around at the time. I remember that first drop on Magnum feeling some epic and steep. Funny how the intamin drops on their hypers now make the magnum drop seem fairly tame. And it rides poorly in comparison. That said, I still love it, and the air time on the bunny hills is still great, and a fun way to end the ride.