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Arrow Dynamics fan

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Everything posted by Arrow Dynamics fan

  1. Fair enough. I share similar sentiments about the three clones and believe that they have their place (with the only possible exception of Invertigo). The one thing I will say about Firehawk is I believe that part of the popularity is due to it being a recent addition. After it has been there for say ten to fifteen years, I have my doubts that it will remain as strong as what Flight of Fear has been due to its lack of force. Also, I don't have the numbers to back this up so I may be wrong on this, but I think it only appears to be more popular due to the longer amount of time that it takes to load and unload the trains. The fact that they decided they only needed two instead of its original three trains makes me think that this one is not as popular as it would appear when it is using only two trains and that it takes longer to fill than say the Vortex that uses three and is very quick to change out. Concerning the Vortex, this is why I recommend having different restraint or trains and if absolutely necessary some retracking. If any of these would improve the experience for those whom have a problem with it, it is worth it. Just so long as it is still there for years to come is all I care about. Concerning the Flight Deck, my thoughts are they should at least keep for its 25 year recommended life. I'm not sure that much of anything can be done for it when these were rare and the track is not the normal Arrow track that Vekoma uses or the one that Chance Morgan has been able to be used as a replacement for in the past; therefore, fixing this problem is much more complex and expensive.
  2. Just because they are sitting there now does not guarantee that they will stay there. Why would they? SFOT does not have another Arrow/Vekoma looping coaster. What use would it's spare part be to anything they have curently? The only thing they have that is made by either company is the Mine Train and even then, is there anything that the two different trains have in common that they can use for parts? Either way, new trains will not magically make the Boomerang have air time, intensity, or anything that would make it at the bare minimum an adequate addition. It is still a terrible addition.
  3. Awesome...next up - Vortex and Flight Deck!!! Actually, I wouldn't mind if they demolished all of the coasters at Kings Island except Beast and Diamondback. Just think about this for a minute. The Diamondback is very similar to the Nitro at SFGAdv only it lacks the reputation for force that the Nitro has. The El Toro is considered one of the top two woodies in the country. They also have the tallest coaster in the world Kingda Ka. They have many of the coasters that people on here have argued should replace it. It is located a little more than an hour away from the largest city in the U.S (NYC) and within similar distances to other larger cities such as Philadelphia. How does it rank against KI (just a reminder the amusement park with the highest attendance in the U.S.)? Lower Or How about Six Flags Great America. It has the Raging Bull again similar to the Diamondback. They have some of the coasters discussed for potential replacements for Vortex. It is located next to Chicago, the third largest city in America. How does attendance rank? Again less than King's Island. I could continue on but for the sake of my fingers, I'll get to the point. King's Island is one of the most popular parks in America and it is located near Cinncinati, a wonderful community, but it does not have nearly the size of potential local market support that other parks offering similar hyper coasters and well ranked wooden coasters and has coasters that are being argued that KI would benefit from. What this proves is the park coaster line up beyond the Diamondback and the Beast (as well as other attractions) are pulling in crowds from all over. It would be a very BAD business move to eliminate every coaster except the Diamondback and the Beast, because you will remove the reason why people are going the distance to attend this park. You need to realize that not everyone goes to a park for the exact same coaster. Some come for the Diamondback, some come for the Vortex, some come for the Beast, some come for the Racer, some come for the Flight Deck, some come for Fear of Flight, some even come due to the reputation for having had crazy attractions like the SoB and the Bat. The secret to success is not investing strictly in one brand and one type of segment, it is investing in a variety and building the reputation as being one of the first to offer it, setting a new benchmark in a pre-existing segment, or giving a very different experience within a pre-existing segment. It creates an image of being a premium park and being the first in a segment has the stronger draw than any follow-ups for coaster fans. It is also important to remember when a large brand like Cedar Fair owns a lot of parks, not to exhaust a ride layout. Having the Mamba, Steel Force, and Wild Thing very similar removes a reason for fans to put in the investment to visit each other park. Why bother based on this when the experience will be the same? Having Cedar Point offer Millennium Force and Kings Dominion offer Intimidator 305 was a prime example of how it should be done. Some prefer Millennium Force other prefer Intimidator 305, the great thing is after a person tries one and love it, it creates a reason for making the investment to go to the other park to try what will be a complete different experience from what they already tried to see which they like better. This arrangement compliments each other especially when this is still a more rare segment. To summarize my point, use the vacant land from SoB for next addition(s). After that, if something must be removed for a new attraction look at attendance and uniqueness of current attractions being considered for the chopping block. Good performers (the Vortex and the Beast) sometimes need reinvestment to keep them strong. The KI strategy of making each addition count has clearly worked given its attendance record compared to their level of investment and given their pull outside their local market. Investing insane amounts of money in attractions without analyzing if this is the right and most effective addition is Six Flags strategy (see SFMM) and it has not worked anywhere close to as well as KI comparing amount invested over a ten year period and pull from outside markets. Make sensible additions and well calculated removals.
  4. I've never been convinced by the "if you know how to ride them" argument. My take is that any coaster that you must "know how to ride" isn't aging well or wasn't particularly well designed in the first place. Well then, I guess the Batman and the Raptor aren't aging well or not particularly well designed in the first place, because not only have I had some issues with them but I have read others express such. Or heck, I had more head banging with the Maverick (I don't fault it because Intamin for some reason actually has a soft OTSR that doesn't hurt). Arrows are not that hard to ride correctly. You just need to have the restraint as tight as possible, sit as tall as possible pressing your shoulder up against the restraint to reduce movement, put exert pressure inwardly on the handles to ensure you stay as centered as possible. Again, why not instead come up with a solution that is a compromise like modifying the trains or if need be have new trains with lap bar restraints. While this despite this being their oldest steel coaster that it still ranked 4th in terms of rides for this year, I would say it that still draws people in and would be worth a refresh. It was because of this coaster & the Flight Deck that I came to KI the last two years. No B&M will accomplish this.
  5. AAARRRGGG!!! NOT AGAIN!!! Can't this lousy year just end without causing me anymore misery!? Why does it have to be my favorite coaster? There are 50 lousy Boomerangs in existence, wipe some of them out for crying out loud, not my Arrows! Okay, now that I got that out. I have rode Vortex 9 times last year and 5 times this year. Like all Arrows, if you know how to ride them, they are amazing. I had little to no problems. The only ride I can think of in this segment that would be an upgrade in terms of intensity would be something like Maverick but even then CP already has it. B&M whatever doesn't have the intensity that this does and they are becoming Boring & Monotonous with each addition. I'll tell you what isn't aging well is Diamondback, that thing vibrates more than the Boss with its Gerstlauer trains. Seriously, why can't some company whether it is S&S, Chance-Morgan, Vekoma, or even Premier be used to retrack these and build some trains that will satisfy the people whom hate the old ones. I would much rather ride this with whatever trains than anything those companies have been making (I reserve judgement on the 4th Dimensional coaster until after I ride it).
  6. There is a trick to riding Arrows. I can ride the Vortex plenty of times without any head banging problems. I sit as tall as I can. I have the restraint as tight as possible. I hold on to the handles at all times pushing inward to keep myself as still as possible. Now, what I have had the worst problems with are standups like Mantis, those I can't avoid even when going straight.
  7. Coasters and flats that I had the pleasure to ride: -Orient Express -Tom's Twister -Acme Gravity Powered Roller Ride (Okay, stop laughing it was my first rollercoaster experience) -Hannibarrels (SBNO) Coasters and dark ride I didn't get to but would love to experience -Drachen Fire -The Bat -Son Of Beast (with the loop and using Premier trains) -Jet Scream -Big Bad Wolf -Batman and Robin: The Chiller -Shockwave/GASM (if I get to ride the Viper at SFMM, I will count it) -Jocco's Mardi Gras Madness (never went to Jazzland/SFNO but based on the video it looked interesting which is more than I can say for Scooby Doo or much, much, much worse Castaway Kids ) Ones I want see paying for eternity for its sins against me -Boomerangs (particularly the one from WOF which sparked my hatred for these coasters and the one St. Louis is getting for ruining everything) -The original Rattler -Mantis -Mean Streak -Spinning Dragons
  8. Not to mention the fact that Ed Hart never seems to keep his parks for very long before he sells them again. He didn't hold onto Magic Springs for very long either. His strategy seems to be adding quantity attractions instead of quality. You don't need 5-7 coasters to be credible, you need 3 great ones chosen carefully (and not necessarily always expensive ones either, just not clones).
  9. In Hart's defense, there was only one other SLC at the time he bought T2. While I will grant this one in the case of T2, I actually was wanting to reference his addition of yet another SLC at Magic Springs while he was running it which concerns me about his idea of what a good attraction is. Per Hart's own videos while T2 did cause a good attendance increase when it was added being only 2 of kind, Chang made a much more significant boost in attendance. I will say that it was likely not exclusively due to Chang but due to building up a good reputation in adding new and what was at the time significant attractions with the addition of Chang the deal maker for people to justify going the distance for the park. My underlying point is after seeing what he added at KK and Magic Springs, he needs to realize that the next move is critical and he needs to find a coaster that will repeat the success that Chang was for KK under his tenure. The fact that Chang was the only coaster SF took from his tenure, should tell you something about the rest of the selection. Simply put, they seemed like good ideas at the time but they have not aged well and looking at how the X-coaster turned out for the long haul at Magic Springs, I sure hope he has learned for some of these prior decisions. Let me elaborate. In Hart's prior proposal videos, he explained that in his vision he was wanting to get a significant amount of attendance from outside Kentucky as what he was able to reach towards the end of his tenure after Chang was added. The Boomerang and SLC were not the things that pull this portion in, but it was Chang the one that stood out from the rest that was the deal clincher. What this means is if this is what Hart is wanting to do, he needs to calculate what rides KK can offer that is not already featured at parks in a reasonable distance from KK, and this is why. Scenario #1. If a person was looking at attending either their home park or KK and notices that the have virtually all the same coasters, why on earth would they waste their time, gas, and hotels rates to attend KK? It simply would not make sense. This is why I refuse to attend many of Six Flags smaller parks. When more than half of what another park has can be found at home, why bother? Scenario #2. If a person is sick of their home park and wants to try some parks with other parks and their choices are King's Island with their unique coasters of the Beast & Vortex, rare finds like Flight Deck, and a long line up good coasters that can be found elsewhere. Then they look at KK and see that the wooden coasters are not quite up to what King's Island has and their steel coasters can be found at half the theme parks in America including some they know they will visit before long, why would they choose KK? The reality is Hart can't give KK the budget that parks like SFMM seem to gets where it doesn't matter how good or terrible the addition is. If they get it wrong, no big deal "we'll dump it on someone else later and make a new decision in a year or two through our standard procedures of throwing darts at different random ideas while blind folded, taking a poll from our target demographic of pet rocks and broccoli, presenting the ideas to our Ouija board, check the Mayan Calendar for any predictions on this, consulting with our Tarot Cards, get a second opinion from our patented "Yes Men" (100% Guarantee or your money back)..."but I digress. Hart can't afford to make these poor decisions SF makes and if he wants the park to get back to the way it was when he left, he has to rebuild its reputation before people are going to trust it again and clones are not going to cut it. Hart needs to look carefully at what smaller parks are doing for inspiration. By the time Outlaw is finished, SDC will have added 3 unique coasters. HW has managed to accomplish the reputation they have with just having 3 wooden coasters that the enthusiasts seem to love (even though I think the Legend and Raven are overrated). One way or the other, KK needs to have rides that stand out instead of cloning.
  10. Alright, thank you for the advice. The new coaster is not a priority at this time to me as the point of this trip is to experience an Arrow 4D coaster and the last Arrow 7 Megalooper while they are both still in existence. The new one will probably still be there for a while and will be a great excuse to come back after all of the bugs are worked out and the crowds have died down. Plus, I imagine if these are good, other parks will order coaster with some of these elements from Premier. By the way, does anyone have any advice as to which airport is the best to fly and which community is safe and reasonably price for hotels?
  11. Not always. In St. Louis, the President's Casino failed a couple years ago. Flooding was a contributing factor as well as competition. If Hart wants this to work, he needs to have 3 things right. 1. He needs to choose carefully what attractions are worth the investment to revive and which ones are not. Ed in his videos seems to be a bit sentimental about some of his selections which in fairness were good at first but have not held up as well in terms of relevance. Getting rid of the Greezed Lightnin' and keeping both of the current woodies is a mistake in my perspective. Greezed Lightnin' although old is unique to this area, Thunder Run and Twisted Twins are nothing significant and considering their closest rival is HW, they need much better wooden coasters if they want to compete. I would axe one of the two woodies (no pun intended) and replace it with either an Intamin pre-fabricated woodie or RMC inverted woodie (depending on popularity. 2. Each individual addition to the park MUST count for the long haul. Clones like the Boomerang and SLC that Hart has used in the past will not cut it. If the segment is offered somewhere near by or is offered at nearly every chain parks location, he needs to avoid it like the plague. I would say that a Dive Coaster has some potential, I would also say he should also consider a Intamin Steel Launched coaster like the Maverick as a possibility. 3. If he is really planing on staying for the long haul this time around. He needs to have a plan to keep the park maintain popularity if not growing in popularity without putting it in a state of never ending reinvestment. Some is definitely necessary, but a new coaster every other year is not necessarily a practical business move. He needs to figure out a reason why people like I should take my time and money to drive to Kentucky when I have a theme park less than an hour away.
  12. My highlights were the following: 1. Attending Cedar Point for the first time: At Cedar, I experienced Maverick, Millennium Force, Magnum XL-200, and Top Thrill Dragster, which at least 3 of them are on my top ten list. Most of the rest did well except for Mean Streak. All in all, I would go back to Cedar Point any time. 2. Attended King's Island for the second time and got to re-ride my all-time favorite Vortex and Flight Deck (which is also on my top ten list) numerous times as well as the Beast and many other of their coasters except for kiddie rides and Invertigo (once from last time was enough). 3. Attended Worlds of Fun to finally experience Prowler which was very good. Got to re-ride the Mamba and Patriot for comparisons to other coasters. Reaffirmed the Timber Wolf's position on my list and the Boomerang was closed that day which wouldn't have been ridden again anyhow. Once was enough for a lifetime. 4. Got to experience Mr. Freeze Reverse Blast and enjoyed it at SFSTL as well as re-riding my favorites. And got to have some last couple memories of the park before our skyline is blighted by the image of the coaster I hate the most.
  13. The next park on my list to visit is SFMM. I haven't decided yet on when I should attend this park or where to stay. The main things I am hoping to learn is when is a good time to attend for short lines, mild temperatures, and when all of the rollercoasters should be functioning. The main coasters I am hoping to experience from SFMM are the X2, Viper, Ninja, Tatsu, Scream!, and Superman: Escape from Krypton, but X2 and Viper are an absolute must. While I am in the L.A. area, I was thinking about attending another park. Disney is not for me, I'm too old for that stuff. I've been to Universal Studios and it was neat, but I am more of a coaster guy. Would Knott's Berry Farm be worth visiting as well based on their coaster offerings or is there a better one you would suggest? Any advice would be deeply appreciated.
  14. You are more than welcome, thank you for running this excellent site.
  15. I took your advice and I do not regret it at all. The Fast pass allowed me to avoid the 1.5 to 1.75 hour wait on the Maverick and +1 hour waits in the Millennium Force, plus saving me time on the rest. Thank you for the help, I deeply appreciate it. For the record, I didn't stay on the Point due to cost. I stayed at a cheaper hotel in Sandusky.
  16. Okay, I have had it with these random GP arguments justifying any decision no matter how dumb it was made by the management. This is not the 1970s. This is 2012. In 2012, when someone is interested in visiting a park because of a "new" attraction they have heard advertised, they want to research it whether or not they are an enthusiast to see if it is thought of as a good idea, or they talk to people whom they know are enthusiasts. Why? Because they recognize that the enthusiast knows something they don't. Think about it. Whom are you going to ask about what hotel to stay at? Someone whom never travels or someone whom does it all the time at a certain location? The next thing, being that I am from the STL area and talk to both people whom go frequently and people whom let visits to the park go for nine years and went. I have a pretty good market to survey of hard core and less than hard core park fans, and not one of them is happy to hear about this. Some are upset to see the Bumper Cars go, some are upset to see Tidal Wave go, and all are not happy to hear about what we are getting. To understand the point of making an addition to a park, you have to have measurable value in the addition by bringing something new to the park that is wanted. The Ninja, as much as people hate it, advanced the park in 1989 by giving them a taller, faster coaster with more inversions than what the Jet Scream had. The Batman gave the park a completely different coaster experience having the track above them with no floor below them. The Mr. Freeze was much taller, faster, unique in its launching feature and two way direction experience. Now, I ask you. What does this lame, rough, ugly, overcloned junk pile have to offer that wasn't being satisfied by the pre-existing coasters? It is slower, it is shorter, it is rougher, it is known to stall in the cobra roll, etc. What is gained? Nothing. It is a HORRIBLE addition and the sign of the incompetence of the SF Corporate management. That ride would give SF a much greater benefit if it were sold for scrap. New or used isn't the problem. The problem is it is a Boomerang. It doesn't matter whether it has Arrow or Vekoma trains. The problem is it is a Boomerang. The problem isn't the name. It isn't the colors chosen. The problem is IT IS A BOOMERANG! Actually Voxelmatic, they do let coasters go to waste. They let good coasters go to waste (GASM, Jet Scream, the Chiller, etc.) and keep the garbage (Boomerangs).
  17. You misunderstand the point. Are all parks which have boomerangs failures. No. Do parks that rely on Boomerangs to be attendance drawers fail. Some have. No, the Vekoma trains do NOT fix the problem at all. The one at WOF that uses a Vekoma train and it is terrible. The ride caused back pains going through the cobra roll. Beyond this even if they were to use the new Vekoma train it is not going to fix the problem with the ride not having any speed or air time. This cannot be fixed with the ride designed as it is. I did go to SFFT and SFOT and neither had a line. Again, the difference between a B&M Invert and a Boomerang is that the B&M Invert has force, has decent level of speed, when properly maintained are reasonably smooth, and have an impressive appearance. Many fans like these better than some of B&Ms new models. Boomerangs are slow, painful, boring, and cheap looking.
  18. These people want to play pointless games they should have played back in 2010, now they need to get it in their heads that they likely have one of three choices: 1. Ed Hart. 2. Someone no one has heard of before whom has little to no track record (ala the people whom have tried to reopen SFNO). 3. Scrapping it. They will either have to get it that they will either have to put some money down to get it to reopen, or spend money to tear it down.
  19. If the parts that are needed are from the trains, I would find this hard to believe since they still use similar trains. Why not scrap a Boomerang instead for the parts. If it is track, why not just have it retracked where it is needed? So long as the inversions were not what needed the retracking, this is what Kennywood did. Hang and Bang, The Chiller would admittedly be expensive due to the extensive problems, but time will tell if it was in fact redeemable at it's new home. Concerning the "having to do an elaborate intrepretive dance to keep from banging my noggin into oblivion," I can assure you that some of these rides that some complain about such as the Vortex, it took little more than tightening my grip around the restraints towards the top corner of the handle and pressing inward, having my feet planted pressing me against the back of the train, wrapping the lower half of my arms around the bottom of the OTSR. This gives leverage to avoid the head banging. It isn't just Arrows that I have had to learn a method to. I actually have more problem with SFSTL's Batman with head banging on the zero G rolls. We will have to agree to disagree on the GIB being a good filler, I think that is what the American Thunder is. Overall, I think we agree on our philosophy for the park. David, with all due respect, I have yet to see a line of any sort for any variation of the Boomerang. At every park I have visit that had these lame rides, they are literally walk on every time. If these rides were popular outside of the enthusiast forums as you claim, why then was it not enough combined with Rampage to keep Alabama Adventure from closing it's non-water park division or how about Jazzland before Six Flags got involved or failed parks that they got these from used, or the Boomerang that Kentucky Kingdom got used, etc. These rides are not crowd drawers. They are often associated with failed theme parks. When this is what they are talking about adding one to your home park, that is the equivalent to having vultures circling you. It will waste the budget on what could be spent on what is needed. They are not impressive looking at all, before I even knew that theme parks purchased coasters instead of building them themselves, I thought it looked lame and after one ride, it was hate from then on. There are countless coaster options between the worst (Boomerangs) and the hypers, gigas, and stratas. It was in adding coasters that were benchmarkers that got them on the map and by having competitive coasters with the current era that helped the park reach 2 million visitors in the 90s. There is no reason why they shouldn't at least try something in between. The problem with adding an outdated painful ride like Boomerang is it could cause attendance to drop as it makes many loyal fans of SFSTL become disillusioned and decide to spend their money at other parks whom ARE investing money into them, like SDC for instance. Then considering the money spent on this, it will drain the budget and SF Corporate could treat us like they treated SFKK after Greezed Lightnin' failed. Having higher count doesn't guaranty anything if it is a bad addition.
  20. Because Arrow went out of bussiness, parts are harder to come by, so the park has to get them customly made by another company which is expensive or use parts from a train that is never used or from a defunct ride that was the same ride type. So once the two Shockwave trains were no longer useable as donators, the park didnt want to pay another company to make the parts and just cut their losses and removed the unpopular ride. And they couldn't get this from Vekoma because why? Vekoma uses their track and trains. Why not just get it from them? It would at least give some benefit to Vekoma's continued existence since they haven't had much of an impact other than building the same lame coaster over and over again.
  21. That's the point. Six Flags isn't going to come back to it. I think the Kochs are done with trying on this. I doubt Herschend would want it due to Dollywood and the Opryland project. The only remaining player whom has a lot of parks aside from Universal and Disney (which would never make such a move) is Cedar and they have nothing to gain from it reopening. If they want this to reopen, they need to accept the idea that they will probably loose some money on the deal, but the other choice is loosing everything when it sits like Rocky Point or Lincoln Park.
  22. My advice to the Kentucky State Fair Board: Take it and don't push your luck any further. If this park is going to reopen, Ed's probably your only hope. I doubt Cedar Fair is interested in wasting their resources on this.
  23. I am not an engineering expert by any sense of the word, but why couldn't Premier have fixed the problems given the advancement in their own LIM technologies and made corrections to the track layout concerning the chiller? What costly repairs plagued the GASM? We are going to have to agree to disagree on not giving a good ride. You have to know how to ride them, when you figure it out, they are amazing. The roughness complaints I think could have been resolved with newer trains with lapbar restraints and a bit of padding for the torso similar as found on Millennium flyers. Even though I never got to ride it, Chang I think could have had possibilities for us, GIBs on the other hand I must disagree. It doesn't add anything that our park doesn't already have. Any variation of the boomerang to me is a waste. The problem though is this ride could cost us dearly because instead of investing in our current attractions, many of which need TLC, we are wasting all the money earned from this year on a money pit that will not draw in the crowds. This could confirm for many people that SF isn't going to do anything good with our park anymore and make them quit coming. Sometimes nothing is better than something when the something is horrible.
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