cjeagle35

I agree, I think that when a park builds a ride like this, (spinner, wild mouse, ect.) they are only looking to appeal to families that reside in the general metro area. This ride is the park's attempt to get St. Louis's families to the park, because more than likely, those families won't take the 4hr trip to WOF to ride something very similar. Now if SFStL build something like a Patriot clone, then I'd be concerned.

I really do like Millenium Force's station. However, I do miss the special neon spot lights it used to have. Just added a nice little touch to very cool looking station. I think Dueling Dragon's has a great looking station also. [[/img]

^I disagree, I think Sea World definatly pulled families into the Aurora area. That in turn would helped GL, as families would make a nice stay out of it, taking 2 days to see both parks. Sea World was definatly a great draw in getting what CF wants for this park, families. Now, I've never been to the Cleveland Zoo, and I'm sure its great place, but both parks could have stayed. Sea World is a different experiance than a local zoo. Also, I do think that if Busch wanted to, they could keep their share of the market. Busch parks are run very well, and I think they could handle a local zoo. What it seems to me, is that Busch decided they couldn't run SWO, like they could the other sea worlds. In the past decade, we've seen those parks install some very high quality thrill attractions, when the parks used to be only about Shamu. But with an amusement park across the way and not having the abilitity to run year round, Busch decided to sell the park.

I agree with Scaparri, while B&M Flyers seem to run smoother, I believe the actual restraits on X-Flight (only Vekoma I've ridden) to more comfortable. The OTSR on the B&M's are big bulky, thick hard rubber/foam. On a Vekoma, the restraints are like a big vest, made a soft thin foam vest. Even if you did get some head banging (very common on Vekomas) you wouldn't really feel it because of the soft restraints. Just my opinion

^^^I just shake my head at posts like that...

Obvisouly Steel Venom could be put in cheaply, I accept that. As I've said a few times already, its the operating costs that MiA wouldn't be able to handle. That ride uses tons of power, and as the park doesn't make much to begin with, to pay for all the power would severly cut into their profit. Also do you really think Steel Venom would add that much more to the park than a Gerstlaur Eurofight or a GCI woodie would add. Yes its a fun ride, but I don't think its installation would really help the park grow like one of those coasters would. I like Impulses, but I'd rather ride a long, full length coaster, that offers various elements. I just don't think a costly Impulse would be best for the park.

As long CF keeps doing what they are doing, maybe someday MiA will reach that mark. With an 18% increase in 2005, and another increase in attendence in 2006, it seems the park is on its way. Oh, and they did all that without the addition of a roller coaster. Amazing, huh?

The park definatly suffered from the loss of animals, even Dick Kinzel admits it. But to retain animals, CF would have to do something it has no experiance in (with the possible exception of the old dolphin show at CP). The worst thing for CF and GL was the Busch sale of SeaWorld to Six Flags. GL would have definatly had better attendence if SeaWorld was still a draw. CF did build a new waterpark for the park, and families see to like it very much. I know when I went, it was packed and it was very enjoyable. Believe me, the next dry attractions for GL will be first and foremost, family oriented. Expect a dark ride, Wild Mouse, Mack Spinner, or Disko coaster to be in the park's future.

^While that could be true, I'm pretty sure that was just CF putting some positive spin on this issue. I guess the attendence could be a little more, but 200,000 more people for just a few more weekends doesn't make any sense. Also, what was attendence like during the Haunt at GL in past years? From what I've heard and experianced, these Halloween events seem to get great crowds? Why did GL cut theirs?

^No, when the park puts out its revenue and attendence numbers, one can make inferences as to where the money and most expensive attractions will go. They will go to the parks that make the most money, that's why Cedar Point gets the best and most roller coasters. As I've said before, coasters don't go where they are "owed," but where the most benefit would be achieved from them, and MiA just isn't that place year in and year out. I think its perfectly logical that MiA will not get a 15mil custom B&M, but I don't think a steel coaster is out of the possiblitity. I think a nice Eurofighter would make more sense for a small park in a small metro area. Of course Cedar Fair will do that. But do you really think that if they put a 15mil coaster in at MiA they'd see a positive return on their investment?

Yes, but steel coasters are very expensive. Have you not read what we've discussed in this thread. Michigan's Adventure doesn't make enough to justify a big steel coaster, maybe a Eurofighter, but certainly not a B&M or Intamin. Those are just too expensive for the park. Also whats wrong with more wooden coasters, have you ever been to Holiday World? They sure don't regret building 3 woodies instead of a steel coaster. I'm sure if there was a market to make a huge amusement park in the area, someone would have started one. Believe me, those people at CF and MiA are smart businessmen, if the park could grow faster than it is, they would put more attractions. Its the operating costs that make Steel Venom not fit in there. A Eurofighter would cost 3mil, then would be very little after that, as its a regular steel coaster, with a very little maintence costs. Now for Steel Venom, the park would have to pay for a new power line, the move, and have to pay for all the power that it takes to run that ride, which is alot. MiA doesn't make much less than GL did, I just don't see it going in there.

Well I'd certainly agree with you. I'd much rather ride a coaster with speed and loops, rather than something that spins. As that just makes me sick. But it isn't what you or I would rather see. Preteens might be scared of the height, speed, and loops of a Eurofighter, but they wouldn't be scared of a wild mouse. My point is a wild mouse gives something for the whole family, while a Eurofighter might be too much for young children. Just since I've been thinking of this topic as we have been discussing what might be best for Cedar Fair's parks, and because I thought it might cause some interesting discussion, I thought I'd name what type of roller coaster I'd like to see for these parks. Now I don't know if this is what will go in, I'm just going to make some logical suggestions as to what each park's next coaster installation should be. Just for fun. Canada's Wonderland-B&M or Intamin Hyper Dorney Park- I think it sees most logical that this will be the next home of Steel Venom, I could be wrong, but with the park upgrading its power, not being too far from GL, and with its plans to expand, it seems to be the place. Carowinds- B&M or Intamin Hyper that crosses state lines Kings Dominion- maybe a hyper, or something else Geauga Lake- a Proslide watercoaster, lol, next real coaster-Mack Spinner Kings Island- B&M invert Michigan's Adventure- Gerstlaur Eurofighter or another GCI woodie Worlds of Fun- GCI woodie Valleyfair!- up in the air Knotts Berry Farm- up in the air, maybe another Maverick like ride? Great America- B&M floorless Cedar Point- I see GCI or Intamin woodie running along the beach or in Mean Streak's old spot. Finally gives CP a top notch woodie and challenges for a top spot in coaster polls. Now I realize some of these just might be wishful thinking, but I had a good time thinking them up. It will probably take quite a few years for these to come, but I can see how some of these installations make sense. We'll just have to see what Cedar Fair does.

Well my point is that they lack a great coaster that I would come to ride. I think the park hasn't really added much for thrill seekers. But if that ride would be best for them, and they feel it could help them, it might be a good ride for them. Its just that I feel they have so many family and kiddie coasters, they might benefit from a great coaster. Now I know that in their area, building these types of rides works for them, the park has a very high attendence, and why build a good one if you don't have any competion, but hey, is it wrong to wish for a better coaster?

^Well there biggest problem is the short ride time and low capacity. However at a small park like MiA, they seem to be a perfect thrilling attraction that doesn't cost alot to build. As for the taking over the Wild Mouse market, I don't see that happening. Euro Fighters are some pretty extreme rides, unlike a wild mouse, which the whole family can ride. But if they got one, I think it would be a great investment at MiA. B&M's don't come cheap. As long as it isn't Canada's Wonderland, haha, they got plenty of those types of coasters.

^^Yes I do think a Euro Fighter is very possible. Yes Mystery Mine cost 17mil, but that was mostly for the themeing. The new Euro Fighter at the Mall of America is only going to cost about 3mil, thats less than Grand Rapids was.

And your point is? Grand Rapids was MiA's most expensive investment ever. It seems to me Cedar Fair is putting more into the park, they just aren't going to overdo it like Six Flags did at GL. But really it isn't in a huge market. Grand Rapids is a city of less than 200,000; Muskegon 40,000; Holland 35,000. There are less than 1 mil people in the metro area of Michigan's Adventure. That is a small number in amusement park terms for local parks like MiA. MiA made only 19mil in revenues in 2005, again very little in amusement park terms, and it doesn't leave a lot of avalible capital to build a new coaster. Really? MiA definatly proves your theory wrong. Sure they haven't had a coaster in 8 years, but attendence was up 18% in 2005, and as for 2006, I've heard their numbers continue to go up. I do think, that with these numbers, MiA could get a new coaster in the near future. But the decison will not be based on if they "deserve" it or not, but that a new coaster could help the park grow. I have got to disagree on that one. I'm sure GL took out SV because it was one of the costliest rides to run. It requires a huge amount of power to run, and just don't think MiA could handle its maintence and running costs. I'd say they next coaster at MiA will either be wooden or a Gerstlaur Euro-Fighter. A big custom steel coaster would just be too much for MiA to build.

What amazes me is how people think that just because a park got a new roller coaster 2 years ago, that automatically rules them out from getting another for another 4 years. The amout of time makes no difference in coasters, otherwise Michigan's Adventure would have gotten one long ago. What really matters is how the management feels a new roller coaster would impact attendence, and if the park has the financial ablity to put in a new ride. Sure Cedar Point is going to get something new ever year, while MiA will have to wait for a while, as there is a huge difference in how much each park makes. Steel Venom will go to the park that would see the greatest benefit from it, not the park that is somehow "owed" a new coaster.

Exactly, face it Ginzo, the general public is excited for this ride. Every ride doesn't need to be the best to achieve its goal, to get more visitors into the park. Right, the makeup of a Kings Island guest is very different from say, a Cedar Point guest. KI's caters mostly to families from the local area, and that is why family rides, like Italian Job and Avatar get built, to get the families. To be most successful, a park must offer something for everyone. Now, I do feel that in recent years, KI has forgetten about the thrill seekers. Cedar Fair has realized this, and they felt Firehawk could give the park a nice boost. Again with Paramount, you would never, ever see a GCI built at one of its parks. Just be happy that the future is bright for KI.

Why can't you just be happy your getting a coaster? There are plenty of parks that would be happy with a used Vekoma. Not everybody is getting something from Intamin this year.

That gets back to the main reason why we are having this arguement. People will still come if they build second rate rides. So why spend the money to build something better? The only way KI could have the huge growth you describe would be to become a resort destination, like CP. However, we all know CF doesn't want that to happen. Why would it be logical to put a Disney-like park in Southwest Ohio? KI was a regonial amusement park, and it will stay a regional amusement park. I certainly agree with you on this, Paramount definatly messed up some very beautiful parks. At one time, with Bat, Beast, King Cobra, and Vortex, KI was the industry leader. But Paramount didn't feel world class rides were worth it, at least not at KI, where you have to compete with CP.

^If Cedar Fair doesn't invest majorly in Canada's Wonderland, that would be a huge mistake. Toronto is a huge area, and CF definatly could put in more attractions to make the park more profitable.

Wait, I thought SFMM's attendence has been slipping lately? The general public cares much more about service than they do about great attractions. SFMM has gotten great rides lately, yet there attendence isn't that great because guests want to have a good time firstly. If the rides are fun, and they park treats them well, they'll spend money there. On the other hand, if a park has every type of B&M coaster avalible, but doesn't run them consistantly, doesn't run them to full capacity, and the park is dirty and the workers rude, they won't be willing to spend their money there. Right, of course they are. That is because they are resort experiances and can run all year long. Unlike KI which mostly attracts season pass holders and the local public, and runs for only half the year. Disney can afford to offer the best attractions, they make exponentially more money than KI. How is KI going to get rapid growth in attendence? Southwest Ohio is definatly not an growing part of the country, and it is definatly not the tourism spot that Florida is. Parks like KI have seemed to reach a plateau in attendence. But Firehawk will raise attendence for a year or 2, allowing the park to make money. Thats all they want from this attraction. Basically, because CBS wanted out of the amusement parks business, that was it. The parks are certainly successful, that is why they are getting new attractions.

It would be totally wrong to call the GP dumb. They just don't have the coaster knowledge as all of us. Most just haven't heard of X-Flight or GL. The ride will be new to them simply because they don't know about its history. They don't know that there are better rides than Firehawk. So are they dumb? Definatly not, they just haven't experianced as many parks as we have. However does this even make a difference to them? No, they will enjoy Firehawk and they will enjoy their time at KI. Will they really care that they got a used Vekoma Flyer rather than a B&M? No, all they know is KI got a new ride, its fun and I had a good time. Therefore I'll be willing to spend money to go there, and I'll come back some day.

Really, then explain to me how Kings Island and Canada's Wonderland lead the industry in attendence for seasonal amusement parks? Those parks haven't had a good roller coaster installation for years. Yet for some reason they are getting a huge number of guests. The GP seem to love the cheap installations of Italian Jobs and Disk-O coasters. These 2 parks seem to prove you don't need great coasters to get a huge number of guests. As long as your park resides in a huge metropolitain area and you get a huge number of season passholders by updating kiddy attractions, your park will be financially successful. True, and none of these installations happened at a Paramount Park. What would Paramount be installing at KI this year? Perhapes a huge Disko coaster themed to Survivor? More Kid rides?

I don't understand why you guys are getting so upset about this installation. Sure it is not the coaster we all wanted. (Lord knows how much I wanted a B&M for KI.) But the general public will still come to ride the ride. Its simply business, the public doesn't know what coasters they "could have gotten," they aren't enthusiast like us, they'll like it no matter what. Believe me, Face-Off is probably the second most popular coaster in the park. Most don't know it was once at Geauga Lake, and probably won't care. KI will have a great year, attendence wise, next season. And the public will like this ride. I'm just glad KI will get a thrilling coaster, as it hasn't had one since 2000(and that one wasn't all that thrilling) and it didn't seem like a new coaster would come soon under Paramount.