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Element change on B&M's


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I wonder why B&M have "Vertical Loop", "Zero G Roll" and "Cobra Roll" then the "Corkscrews" in that order in their layout's.

 

How about start the ride with a "Inline Twist" then a "Batwing" and "Cobra Roll".

 

B&M could add to Vertical Drop coasters a "Cobra Roll" and Vertical loop" or even a "Top Hat"

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Not every B&M has that sequence. Keep in mind though that if you are going to have a big lift to have the momentum to get thru a big loop, you're going to need a bigger inline twist if you change the sequence, otherwise you can snap necks. Most parks like having extra space for future expansion, so they probably opt for biggest element first, then going smaller.

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Derek, we all know you want a B&M version of Olympia Looping, but it's just not going to happen!

 

The elements have to decrease in size as the ride progresses or the train would stall. (Look at X or Eejanaika. Those elements shrink fast because of the all the drag from the extra rails 'squeezing' and 'stretching' the trains.)

 

The elements you listed aren't accurate for a lot of B&M's. BTR is a great example.

 

I think a lot has to do with how tha elements interact with the surroundings, too.

A zero-g roll wouldn't work well near the ground because it is actually a twisted air hill.

A small cobra roll near the end of a ride could be very uncomfortable. That's actually a lot of directional changes in that element.

Small vertical loops tend to have very high positive-g's. That's uncomfortable for a large majority of people and can cause health concerns. (Mission: Space?)

 

Just some ideas I had.

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I wonder why B&M have "Vertical Loop", "Zero G Roll" and "Cobra Roll" then the "Corkscrews" in that order in their layout's.

 

Interesting. It seems you just decribed Raptor.

 

Let's try Medusa at SFGAdv:

Vert. Loop

Dive Loop

Zero-g Roll

Cobra Roll

Corkscrew

Corkscrew

 

 

And now Talon at Dorney (along with Patriot at WoF):

Vert. Loop

Zero-g Roll

Immelman

Wingover (corkscrew)

 

And how about Hydra: The Revenge?:

Inclined Dive Loop

Zero-g Roll

Giant Corkscrew

Cobra Roll

Corkscrew

 

I can see where you're coming from, but it just doesn't hold true.

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Well, I would deffinately love to see a change-up in the layout, which i think is what he is talking about. Too many B&M's have the same layout and it gets really boring to see. They should try re-aranging the elements into a diff order. (ex. Floorless - Lift, Drop, Vertical Loop, Over-Banked turn right, Zero-G, Immelman or Dive loop, Cobra Roll, MCBR, Corckscrew, Barrel Roll, Corckscrew. Basically all the same elements on a floorless but in a diff order with the added Barrel Roll for a whole new ride experience. Just my thoughts.

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What about the Hulk?

 

Zero-G Roll

Cobra Roll

Loop

Corkscrew

Loop

Corkscrew

 

That doesn't follow the "Typical B&M Layout" even though I think the ride sucks

 

Kumba uses the typical B&M layout and IMO is a flawless one at that... Maybe because it was the first and also uses the terrain very well?

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So what was KrakenKing trying to hide there?

 

What about the Hulk?

 

Zero-G Roll

Cobra Roll

Loop

Corkscrew

Loop

Corkscrew

 

That doesn't follow the "Typical B&M Layout" even though I think the ride sucks

 

Kumba uses the typical B&M layout and IMO is a flawless one at that... Maybe because it was the first and also uses the terrain very well?

 

Oh, so you don't like Hulk? That is allowed.

The only coaster you get introuble for not liking around here is Expedition GeForce.

 

I'm a huge Kumba fan, myself.

 

Haven't done Hulk, though.

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And how about Hydra: The Revenge?:

Inclined Dive Loop

Zero-g Roll

Giant Corkscrew

Cobra Roll

Corkscrew

you forgot the "jojoroll" inline

 

Other B&Ms that are "different" would be. BDK, Montu, Topgun PC, Topgun PGA.. and all the B&M standups...

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Derek pretty much explained it.

 

Most Loops need more speed to be taken through it meaning it needs to be early in the ride. Not always first, but alot of times first.

 

The reason for the element orders is mostly based on speed. Each element has an "optimal" speed through which its taken and gives the optimal feeling. A wingover wouldnt really feel the same if it were blown up 5 times larger. Just like trying to get a loop with hangtime at the top would be near impossible in a small form.

 

 

The only types of rides that get away with distorting the order are Nemesis like rides where the ride is built near the ground and the ground is used (or abused in that case) to arrange the elements in a different order.

 

 

The other factor are supports. Supports cost alot of money since its where most of the steel is at. You wouldnt suspend a small wingover/flatspin 150ft in the air because it would be pointless and the supports to support that would just up the cost plus it would look really, really stupid.

 

 

For me it just goes back to the "Optimal" feeling/speed/forces for each element. Its the trend that Ive picked up on and even on a ride like Nemesis the Loop is STILL the largest element and the wingovers are standard sized. The Zero G is on the small end but still the middle sized element. The order is changed because of the topography of the area.

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^ You must not know B&M's reputation. B&M has been widely known for their smooth and intense rides. Emphasis on SMOOTH. Intamin is popular for reasons I can't say for myself, because I haven't been on many Intamin rides at this point. Hulk is one of A FEW "rough" B&M's, it's not fair to totally assume that B&M just makes rough rides based on a few bad apples. It's like saying that all Intamin coasters will throw you out of your seat to your death. I hope this doesn't come across as an attack, I don't mean for it to be, but I was a little bugged by this statement.

 

As for B&M layouts, I don't have any complaints. Some may have similar layouts, but each coaster has it's own personality, despite it's layout.

 

I don't think anybody's mentioned the Batman clones, but they only have 3 different inversions, two of which are repeated, and none of them are cobra rolls, immelmans, batwings whatever else I've forgotten.

 

And on Dueling Dragons, the first inversion on one is a sidewinder, and on the other is a zero-g roll, and the loops are basically in the middle if the ride. So anything's possible.

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I would only comment on B&M "rough" rides in that it actually can depend on several factors.

1. Upkeep-maintenance (daily).

2. Train/chassis overhaul (seasonal/hours of operation).

3. Track inspections.

4. Operational issues/budgets.

 

While some have noted several B&M coasters have recently been quite "rough" in their age, it is to assume that the maintenance departments have not performed (annual or other timeline) overhaul on its train/chassis inspections. For example, Kraken (SW-F) has an annual tear-down and re-assembly on an annual basis. While the mfg. can list the specific parameters based on (train) hours, months, season(s), a park generally determines the timeline when it actually takes a train, or entire ride out of service.

I recall when working at BG that our average tear down was during the winter-months. We completeley disassemble the train/chassis and re-install new bearings, c-clips, hinge connectors, bolts, etc. Wheel carriers by themself can add new life with a simple tear-down and re-fit with new bearings/grease and wheels (if required).

So, while a current ride (B&M or other product) may be rough now, inquire about is annual maintenance teardown and then ride again and see the improvement.

**SPecial note: I am curious that some people stated that Dueling Dragons was becoming rough in its age. I know it has recently begun its track painting program and I wonder if the park has timed its maintenance (train) tear-down inspection as well. If that is the case, let us know.

Try riding a coaster in beginning of the season, then the middle, then near the end of its season. Notice that as time passses, the bearings have more play in them, the wheel carriers need more inspection/care, and the wheels themselves start having more "blowouts" (wheel material lining chipping/seal broken).

Also, it really can depend on the actual parks maintenance program as well (especially parks that open year-round).

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^ You must not know B&M's reputation. B&M has been widely known for their smooth and intense rides. Emphasis on SMOOTH. Intamin is popular for reasons I can't say for myself, because I haven't been on many Intamin rides at this point. Hulk is one of A FEW "rough" B&M's, it's not fair to totally assume that B&M just makes rough rides based on a few bad apples. It's like saying that all Intamin coasters will throw you out of your seat to your death. I hope this doesn't come across as an attack, I don't mean for it to be, but I was a little bugged by this statement.

 

As for B&M layouts, I don't have any complaints. Some may have similar layouts, but each coaster has it's own personality, despite it's layout.

 

I don't think anybody's mentioned the Batman clones, but they only have 3 different inversions, two of which are repeated, and none of them are cobra rolls, immelmans, batwings whatever else I've forgotten.

 

And on Dueling Dragons, the first inversion on one is a sidewinder, and on the other is a zero-g roll, and the loops are basically in the middle if the ride. So anything's possible.

 

The first Element on Fire is an Immelman, then airtime hill, then another Immelman followed by a sick helix then into a loop then a turn around, wingover, turn, wingover, turn then done.

 

Ice has the Zero G, Cobra and one wingover. Sidewinder is one term for an immelman but mostly for Vekoma installations.

 

/end technicality.

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