Alpengeist question

[Tmcdllr]

Did a search and could not find an answer. I'm trying to explain this to someone and need help. Alpengeist has a zero car, that is, a car with an axle and wheels but no seats. Correct? Most B&M inverts do not have a zero car. Why does Alpengeist have it? What purpose does it serve? What would happen if it was removed? This is the first B&M invert I've seen with a zero car and to me it looks strange. Any help would be much appreciated, thank you.

[nemesis-storm]

I think & i'm pretty sure I'm correct here, it's just for extra weight.

As it's the tallest? B&M inverted, it would'nt make the circuit with out it.

[rollermonkey]

I noticed that lots of B&M's have that lead 'car,' but I never noticed that the inverts don't have it.

Hmmm.

[BorisTF]

I found this when browsing RCDB a while ago and piosted on another forum, I think they answered the question there, lemme try and find a link.

 

EDIT:

Now, we were debating for some time what the heck the front car was, since there was no seats hanging from it. From our view, it's just a set of wheels attached to the track. Well, I asked the ride operator, and she told me what the deal was. It does have a purpose... two, actually.

 

The first purpose is that the electronics for the train hangs in a box below the wheels. These electronics control all onboard controls, such as the brakes and the shoulder restraints. This box is removable for the second purpose.

 

When BGW is shooting a commercial, they dismount the first row of seats. The box on the front car is also dismounted. When the box is removed, it reveals two holes in the car. These holes are where they mount the two on train cameras... one for taking pictures of the new front row of seats, one for the forward view. The ride was actually designed to mount cameras as part of the ride... neat, huh?

 

http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=475732&highlight=Alpengeist

[Homey G.]

I was told it reduces forces for those that sit in the front row. Less whipping going through the tight elements.

[CoasterFanatic]

All B&M coasters technically have a "zero car". The only difference is that some have seats on it and some don't. The first two rows of all B&M Inverts and Floorless coasters tilt at the same angle, no matter what the other cars are doing.

 

This picture really explains it better than anything:

Notice the space difference between the first two rows.

[pkdcoaster]

Now, we were debating for some time what the heck the front car was, since there was no seats hanging from it. From our view, it's just a set of wheels attached to the track. Well, I asked the ride operator, and she told me what the deal was. It does have a purpose... two, actually.

 

The first purpose is that the electronics for the train hangs in a box below the wheels. These electronics control all onboard controls, such as the brakes and the shoulder restraints. This box is removable for the second purpose.

 

When BGW is shooting a commercial, they dismount the first row of seats. The box on the front car is also dismounted. When the box is removed, it reveals two holes in the car. These holes are where they mount the two on train cameras... one for taking pictures of the new front row of seats, one for the forward view. The ride was actually designed to mount cameras as part of the ride... neat, huh?

 

While I am not sure of the exact reason....I can tell you that is BS...Busch just yanks the seats off of the 1st 2 rows for ALL their inverts for the camera...it is not a special wheel assembly for that....., (see pic of Montu below) there are NO onboard controls...the train has metal that passes a "limit switch" that tells the Ride Computer (Not On Board!) where the train is and calculate how fast it got there and applies the brakes...accordingly

 

The train would easily make it around the course without the 0 car

 

Like Fanatic said ALL B&Ms have it....the "0" car spins laterally but not vertically for whatever reason.next time you are in the 2nd seat of a B&M invert see for yourself or a good trick is to hold your feet straight out...the first row stays the same distance in front of you through the loops....not so in any other row.

 

I have been searching for the answer for 9 years and still have not found a logical one that makes any sense....IMO it is cosmetic...and has no real importance. IMO it is ugly and kills the speed effect in the 1st row

 

Edit: Come to think about I did hear a semi-good reason once as it was for extra cusion in collisions and Ironically it had one opening weekend in 1998

 

 

JEFF

peeps in 3rd row, empty 2nd row and camera on 1st row

same setup on alp

[trustkill22]

I can see what CoasterFanatic is sayin how close the first 2 rows are and can also see what pkd is saying but I just don't think they would put one up like on Alpengeist just for cameras when they probaly have only used it for shows and promotional pictures.

[Racerbret]

I came to understand that without the zero car, or the two rows that don't move in an up and down motion independently of each other, the train would not be level as it traveled, but would would be like a seesaw. Each car would tilt forward or backwards a little or something like that. Heres sort of an example. Just imagine each line as a car in the train.

/ \ / \ / \ / \

 

With the two front cars unable to "see-saw" or having a zero car on the front or back of a coaster doing basically the same thing, it forces the rest of the cars throughout the train to stay level and not see-saw.

== - - - - - - - - -

 

This isn't done on just B&Ms, its done on all coasters who's cars only have one axle. This is why rides like Viper at MM have what seems to be a very small zero car or basically a second axel on the rear of the last car while the rest of the cars only have one axel on the front of each car. This extra axle/small zero-car does the same as a zero car on a B&M or having two cars connected.

 

Thats what I was told anyways. If I messed up anywhere, please let me know.

 

 

EDIT: Here is a picture of Viper. Notive every car has a set of wheels attatched to the front end. The last car has a set of wheels on the front, and a set on the back side that look sort of out of place.

http://www.coasterimage.com/pictures/sixflagsmagicmountain/pics/vp09.jpg

[DerekRx]

The reduction of forces to the riders in the first occupied row of seating is my best guess. Kinda like how on certain Vekoma's (Vampire at Chessington) they wouldn't allow riders in the first row due to the whipping action and stuff. Since Alpengeist is much taller than the other inverts and has larger elements, it makes sense that to decrease the strain on riders, placing them back a row would lessen the whipping actions.

 

I think it looks fugly, but I like trying to stick my head in the hole

(hmmmm, that sounded dirty, but it wasn't supposed to!)

[Real]

The first two act as the hinge for the rest to trailer off. Simple as that. Its the same principal as wooden coasters that trailer. They need the front 2 axels to trailer too and since Inverts (and Floorless) dont have the nice full zero car on the front, the first two rows get that honor.

[calcajun]

^ I personally believe it is a trailor issue. ^

 

How bout this though, at the Tatsu media day, why don't one of you guys that are there actually ask someone from B&M? Then we have the final answer?

 

I wanted to do this when they came to inspect Batman at SFNO in Novenber but of course they showed up on my day off.

[CoasterFanatic]

^ They will say that it is purely for stability, but nobody seems to be satisfied with that answer. It isn't sexy enough.

 

People want to believe that there is some mysterious reason why this is the only invert that has it. Probably has nothing to do with the fact that it is also the tallest.

 

If B&M was to build a 200ft floorless, you better believe that it will have a "zero car" also.

[ACEfanatic02]

The zero car is there to give the first trailered car something to hitch to. Each car has only one axle, and hitches to the car in front for stability. As for why they don't have seats on the zero car... who knows? Maybe the mechanical box discussed earlier...

 

But it does have to do with the trailered cars.

 

-ACE

[pkdcoaster]

B&M inverts are not trailored...every other on ehas no need for it.

 

JEFF

[Real]

B&M inverts are not trailored...every other on ehas no need for it.

 

JEFF

 

Oh, but they are. Thats why the first 2 are joined together to give the rest a base to trailor off of. You cant trailor off a 1 axel car - you need two axels - hence why floorless and invert trains have the first 2 cars joined.

[pkdcoaster]

Oh, but they are. Thats why the first 2 are joined together to give the rest a base to trailor off of. You cant trailor off a 1 axel car - you need two axels - hence why floorless and invert trains have the first 2 cars joined.

 

if that was the case you would need a set of wheels on the back of the train like on an arrow train, A B&M invert could still run without the different setup in the front. the entire Weight of the car is supported directly under (or over) the running wheels...you could still run theroetically (sp) ONE car around the track and nothing would drag.

 

BTW each B&M inverted car has 2 axles/Technically 4 axles (4 wheels)

 

JEFF

[CoasterFanatic]

^ But those 4 wheels are not always parallel to the train. Part of the reason why B&Ms are so smooth is that the wheel assembly can move in all directions.

 

The cars ARE trailered and you can not send just one car. It would be the equivalent of sending an untrained rider down a hill on a unicycle.

 

Without the zero-car concept, now you have 8 people riding 8 seperate unicycles with the hands on the shoulder of the person in front of him/her. With the cooperation of the front two cars, they would fall like a set of dominos.

 

// Hey ... it makes sense to me.

[Real]

For a better mental picture:

 

Hook up 2 car trailors that only have one axel to each other and by themselves see if they can steer or maneuver at all.

 

BTW, your picture is cutting off the first car. Theres 8 per train, not 7.

 

Interesting how that picture contradicts this picture:

 

 

And theres your answer. Again.

[V2-dude]

Alright peoples, i might have the answer to your problem right here. Notice the two cars at the top of the picture. see how they are aligned perfectly? That's because they're the first two cars, which are connected. Now look at the others. Notice how they are all leaning forward. That's because they do trailer off of the first two.

 

But at a closer look, we can see that each of the six rear cars have a big yellow hitch in front of them. This adds a considerable amount of weight, causing them to lean forwards. If that hitch were to be removed, a single car would be able to move and not drag anything.

 

So yes, the cars do trailer off of the two front cars, but only because the cars have been put together into a train.

[pkdcoaster]

^ But those 4 wheels are not always parallel to the train. Part of the reason why B&Ms are so smooth is that the wheel assembly can move in all directions.

 

The cars ARE trailered and you can not send just one car. It would be the equivalent of sending an untrained rider down a hill on a unicycle.

 

Without the zero-car concept, now you have 8 people riding 8 seperate unicycles with the hands on the shoulder of the person in front of him/her. With the cooperation of the front two cars, they would fall like a set of dominos.

 

// Hey ... it makes sense to me.

 

Maybe you guys are right but I am just not getting a good visual picture of this.... I know they are "trailored" in that they are attched to the one in front and so on...but the wheel assembly moving in all directions?????? (I know they flex foward and backward a little bit) That makes no sense to me at all....what I am really trying to say is if you had just one inverted car on the track it would stay on the track not like an arrow car where one half is not supported...one set of B&M wheels can support the whole car...where as one set of Arrow wheels cannot.....right?

 

Also on your first comment Fanatic....wouldnt that mean the first 2 rows would be rough......since the assemblys do not "move in all directions"

If you could find some kind of picture to better explain this it would be a big help.

 

Edit: thank you V2 dude...that is the point I was trying to make about them just staying upright......I think we are all confusing each other with the "trailering" definition ---I am thinking cannot support itself and NEEDS the car infront to stay upright.

 

JEFF

[CoasterFanatic]

^ Not really sure that any extra roughness would really be noticable, but the ride would be different.

 

I think you are starting to get it. The first photo that I posted really demonstrates it best.

 

Arrow suspendeds are completely different because each car has two axles. While the B&M models have 4 wheels, it is still technically only one axle.

[pkdcoaster]

Fanatic...when you say Wheel assemblys move all around did you mean the Chasis joint moves around?...Cause I still do not understand that quote...the wheel assemblys seem pretty rigid to me looking at those scream pics.

 

JEFF

[CoasterFanatic]

All the wheel assemblies can tilt AND turn independently. This is part of the whole B&M is smoother that Vekoma argument. Since Vekoma's wheels don't articulate as well they have to build more tolerance into their track which in turn makes it rougher. Sort of like a woodie, but not quite as much tolerance.

 

 

I know the picture is of an Arrow wheel assembly, but you get the idea.

[calcajun]

This is B&M batman invert.

Since the guide wheels are on the outside, I would think a single car could navigate the course without coming off, but would be more stable being trailored. Thats why I think a lead or zero is used.