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Official Drachen Fire Thread [Merged]


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well, i am a fan of course of the ride as some of you know from my rec. (http://nldc.interfix.net/p1092)

 

I rode it twice in 1 day sometime in the summer of '97. I was 7 at the time so i was at the perfect height for maximum headbanging. I was a coaster fan at that age (yes, that early on) and I only knew the ride from an old VHS America's Greatest Roller Coaster Thrills. The ride was a walk on and the area was pretty much dead from what i remember. I have no idea how I found it because I remember I spotted it but probably somebody in my family had to go to the bathroom or something, i dunno. I think they were running two trains that day, but not one train from what i remember was ever full. There wasn't even a line for the front. I got on and right off the lift my head was banging. We sat in the middle, but i don't remember any hangtime. I just remember my head was constantly banging the entire ride, even on the airtime hill! The only part of the ride that was smooth that i remember was the lift, and the straightaway down into the cutback. I got off and everybody in my family hated it. That long ago, none of us really knew what to do when headbanging occured. I remember going back later that day to ride with my dad to see that if I sat in a different seat, the ride would a lot better. Wrong, the ride was worse and i got off and as soon as I saw my mom and sister, my eyes were full of tears (c'mon i was 7 yrs old, haha).

 

I am really sad to see it go though. I mean they tore it down after Premier Rides replaced all of there harnesses with lapbars. If they had done that the ride experience would have increased greatly. Ridership may have increased, but i think the location was HORRIBLE, the coasters reputation was bad, and too much money had been invested already to try and make it better. I mean the ride was on this TINY little path that weaved b/w the Festhaus and the German buildings part of the BBW. The rides sign was even hidden back in there, so you would not know what was back there until you saw the sign. I they had placed the sign right on the start of the small path b/w the Festhaus and buldings, people would know what would be back there. You could barely even see the ride from the main midway. Now about the money invested in the ride to fix it. Even opening day the ride was not that great. Only 2 years after opening the track was modiefied. The corkscrew after the MCBR was torn out and an ultra lame straightaway was put in with trim brakes. Then since i am now noticing the ride created more hangtime in the inversions as the years went on, the lift maight have been slowed down to reduce some of the headbanging. Then the cables were added on the cobra roll to brace it and keep it more sturdy so it did not creat those bad whips you get.

 

I think this coaster was too advanced for arrow at the time. They should have thought about it more and spent time designing it so it could have worked instead of creating those awful transitions. It was a coaster that was ahead of it's time and arrow designed it in the same way that they designed there standard looping coasters. ie all of their loops were the same size and diameter (that's why their loops are raised up, such as Viper or GASM at SFMM and SFGAdv). Their corkscrew always entered on a high bank that turned in the way the cork was going. On DF you'll notice it goes on a bank but unbanks and enters the cork going the other way. It was these unusual elements that arrow had never done before that made the ride not so great. The trains also boxed you in more than their standard looping coasters. The trains were poorly engeniered in which the wheels (like almost all arrow and vekoma coasters) did not fully grip the rails. B&M's and Intamins trains grip the rails all the way around. Because of this the train could shimmy a little bit and stuff. The reason for these new trains I think was mainly becasue of the new radical elements, the standard arrow looping trains would not be able to handle them.

 

Basically the demolghing of this ride was inevitable. Even if the trains were modified, it would be more money to invest in new trains. And BGW hated the location from the start because it was out of the main loop of the park. PKDcoaster has a decent pic that he modified to show how far out of the way the coaster really was. You can also see the where the sign to the coaster is. It really was wedged back in there with a snaking path that weaved in b/w all of the existing rides and attractions. The park follows 1 main loop around the park and it was way out of the way.

 

I guess that's all i'm going to say haha. That's my LONG 2 cents on the ride from my experince and knowledge of it. I guess you can say that i'm just a small fan of the ride, just a small fan. haha hope you caught the sarcasm.

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No, no, no, no, no, no, no, and more no.

B&M had nothing (and I do mean nothing) to do with the Arrow design of Drachen Fire. DF was solely an Arrow project, designed by the master of pain himself, Ron Toomer.

 

In 1992, B&M was working on perfecting their Inverted coaster (which debuted that year as B:TR at SFGAdv). Originally, Arrow was contracted to build two looping coasters for the Busch parks. However, Busch wanted a looping coaster with a loop around the lift hill, and as Arrow was unable to offer that, they went with B&M instead of Arrow for Kumba. Once again, B&M never had any affiliation with Drachen Fire, as witnessed by the awful transitions that only Arrow and Toomer could provide.

 

You keep looking at those photos of the lift and say to yourself "that looks nothing like a B&M structure" the proof of INFLUENCE is there. I did not say they teamed up to build DF. AND FYI Six Flags Great America got the first inverted in 1992 not Great Adventure (theirs was 1993)

The design IS ARROW but it was INFLUENCED by B&M.

 

JEFF

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^^Premier? Lap bars? Drachen Fire? Huh?

 

I don't think the ride's lack of popularity can be attributed to its location. You could see it from the train and Big Bad Wolf--pretty hard to miss, as I recall. Heck, they use the old Drachen Fire station for Sleepless Hollow Manor at Howl-o-Scream and no one seems to have trouble finding that.

 

To me, it was just a poorly designed ride--too rough for my own good, as my pounding head and bruised shoulders can attest. The only reason the structure lasted as long as it did was because a bald eagle nested on top of the lift hill one summer.

 

But it was a beautiful looking coaster, particularly at night. Here's to hoping Busch puts that space to good use again.

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No, no, no, no, no, no, no, and more no.

B&M had nothing (and I do mean nothing) to do with the Arrow design of Drachen Fire. DF was solely an Arrow project, designed by the master of pain himself, Ron Toomer.

 

In 1992, B&M was working on perfecting their Inverted coaster (which debuted that year as B:TR at SFGAdv). Originally, Arrow was contracted to build two looping coasters for the Busch parks. However, Busch wanted a looping coaster with a loop around the lift hill, and as Arrow was unable to offer that, they went with B&M instead of Arrow for Kumba. Once again, B&M never had any affiliation with Drachen Fire, as witnessed by the awful transitions that only Arrow and Toomer could provide.

 

You keep looking at those photos of the lift and say to yourself "that looks nothing like a B&M structure" the proof of INFLUENCE is there. I did not say they teamed up to build DF. AND FYI Six Flags Great America got the first inverted in 1992 not Great Adventure (theirs was 1993)

The design IS ARROW but it was INFLUENCED by B&M.

 

JEFF

 

As far as I understand it the concept of the ride was originally developed by B&M and they had to abandon the project. Then Arrow came along and were heavily influenced by the design and added their own stuff to (case in point: the cutback element).

 

pkdcoaster has a point - you can't look at that ride and not think of a B&M coaster. This is fairly heavilly documented on the internet too.

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I don't see B&M getting involved in a project and letting it down, more over for quite an "easy" project. They knew how to do a hill, a cobra roll, They shown later they knew how to make a wrap around inversion, they knew how to make corkscrews etc etc. B&M would never have let down a project like this, if they ever got involved in it... The only reason I would see B&M dropping out of the project (assuming they were involved in it which I donn't think) would be an outside reason, such as BGW pushing them out for too high costs. Anyway, I don't think it could have happened.

 

I'd rather see arrow copying B&M layouts that using an ol' project B&M let down for some reason...

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B&M was fairly new at the time and didn't have enough capital or manpower to handle two massive designs plus continue development of their new stand-up and invert designs.

 

BGW had a good history with Arrow and asked them to take the project over. Arrow didn't know why to replicate some of B&M's designs so they made their own. If you look at Kumba, that is pretty much what Drachen Fire would have looked like. A loop around the lift hill, zero-g roll, cobra roll, interlocking corkscrews, and then a helix; almost twins except no dive loop. One could argue that Drachen Fire's problems were the beginning of the end for Arrow and that they never recovered from it.

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This ride was to be opened for the 1992 season, B&M barely existed at this point. They had not built a sit down coaster and were probably working very hard on the Batman invert (at this time a prototype coaster). Busch wanted them to build coasters for both of it's parks and they only had time to do one (resulting in KUMBA, their first sit down a year later). Arrow took over the project and changed many aspects of the ride.

 

So this project would not have been 'easy' for them because it was a new type of coaster for B&M.

 

Also in 1992 when this all took place B&M had never built a cobra roll on any of their coasters. In fact B&M were a new company of only a few years and had only built 2 stand up coasters. B&M was a young company placing its bets on the new inverted coaster 'Batman' and they probably had no other resources left at their disposal.

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BGW wanted it in 1992 and B&M could not meet their deadline. BGW was not the powerhouse tourist attraction then that they are now. all the awards and exposure they have got over the years were not there in 1991 and they were competing with PKD at the time for LOCAL tourists. It is kinda funny that they got alot of national exposure from Drachen fire with the Coaster Specials starting around then and after Alpengeist, DF was certainly doomed it seemed.

 

JEFF

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No, I do not think they are bad at all, I loved Shockwave, what a ride...so sad to see it go....easily the best of the 3 6 flags Arrow mega loopers

 

People just do not know how to ride certain rides or they are not used to the types of forces a good Arrow will give you

 

JEFF

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As far as I understand it the concept of the ride was originally developed by B&M and they had to abandon the project. Then Arrow came along and were heavily influenced by the design and added their own stuff to (case in point: the cutback element).

 

pkdcoaster has a point - you can't look at that ride and not think of a B&M coaster. This is fairly heavilly documented on the internet too.

No, that's just a rumor. B&M literally had nothing to do with Drachen Fire. Busch contacted Arrow to make Drachen Fire. They didn't talk to B&M about it.

 

Someone on a site sent a letter to B&M a couple of years ago asking about it, and they confirmed the fact that they had nothing to do with it. They were not contacted, nor were they an influence for Drachen Fire.

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Someone on a site sent a letter to B&M a couple of years ago asking about it, and they confirmed the fact that they had nothing to do with it. They were not contacted, nor were they an influence for Drachen Fire.

 

Well then that settles it...does not get any more offical than that

 

The dippin dots guy just called Claude's cell and asked him and he said the same thing. WOW

 

Bottom line- everyone has their opinion on the subject and we will just leave it at that NOBODY knows for sure except the people at Arrow.

(all Arrow had to do was look at a concept drawing of Kumba)

 

JEFF

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Well then that settles it...does not get any more offical than that

 

The dippin dots guy just called Claude's cell and asked him and he said the same thing. WOW

 

Bottom line- everyone has their opinion on the subject and we will just leave it at that NOBODY knows for sure except the people at Arrow.

(all Arrow had to do was look at a concept drawing of Kumba)

 

JEFF

Thanks, dude!

 

The thread's here, but it's archived and the images have long since been taken off the guy's site. Go ahead and contact Dave of Fright Time. He's got the proof.

 

And about Arrow getting the idea from a Kumba concept drawing, that may be, but how would they get their hands on it years before Kumba was built? Remember, coasters aren't planned and designed in three weeks.

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Well. Seems we have a lively discussion going on here. I too, am a fan of Drachen Fire. Seeing that it was my first coaster, I have particularly fond memories of it. As to if there going to put a new ride there, hate to burst your bubble, but there not going too. The ride had a pretty poor location, not to mention that it was a bit rough for the general public, because, well, they didnt know how to ride it.

 

As to the new coaster, too much to write here:

http://www.coastercrazy.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11517

http://www.coasterfanatics.com/sec_forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=953&PN=1

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Someone on a site sent a letter to B&M a couple of years ago asking about it, and they confirmed the fact that they had nothing to do with it. They were not contacted, nor were they an influence for Drachen Fire.

 

Playing devils advocate here but I would not think B&M would admit any involvement anyway. I have just e-mailed B&M so if they get back to me that may be inetresting.

 

We may have to agree to disagree

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I also don't buy that B&M would admit any involvement. But when I worked on Drachen Fire, we would talk to the mechanics and they said B&M had originally been the designer. While I worked there, Alpengeist was getting built, that is why the discussion was relevant. The mechanics had been there 15+ years, so they knew the happenings at the park pretty well.

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And about Arrow getting the idea from a Kumba concept drawing, that may be, but how would they get their hands on it years before Kumba was built? Remember, coasters aren't planned and designed in three weeks.

 

You just made no sense at all, You are telling me BUSCH would not have access to THEIR own Coaster's Concept drawing years in advance??????

You do understand that a concept drawing is the VERY first thing done many years before a coaster opens....right???

 

They might not even know about their own involvment why would they have to know at all and I do not think they would say...yea!! we had a big hand in that monster failure of a roller coaster we helped design...there are no official ties to B&M...of course they are gonna say "thats funny, never heard of it"

 

JEFF

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You just made no sense at all, You are telling me BUSCH would not have access to THEIR own Coaster's Concept drawing years in advance??????

You do understand that a concept drawing is the VERY first thing done many years before a coaster opens....right???

 

They might not even know about their own involvment why would they have to know at all and I do not think they would say...yea!! we had a big hand in that monster failure of a roller coaster we helped design...there are no official ties to B&M...of course they are gonna say "thats funny, never heard of it"

 

JEFF

Calm down, dude. You're not really making sense now.

 

Drachen Fire was made by Arrow. Kumba was made by B&M. Arrow wouldn't have access to B&M's plans. Easy as that.

 

Edit: Fine. B&M designed and ghost built Drachen Fire. Whatever. I'm not going to argue what I know is fact. The B&M rumor has been floating around forever. I've seen a scan of a letter from B&M saying they had no hand in Drachen Fire, so I rest on what I saw. I'll let you keep going, but I'm done. It's not really that big a deal. I was just trying to clear up a misconception, that's all.

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BUSCH had the concept drawings and gave them to Arrow and said we want somethng like this

 

you are confusing plans with concept drawings...very different things.

 

EDIT: you still are not understanding, I AM AGREEING with you that they did not design it and they certainly did not build it, they (Arrow) looked at a concept SKETCH and said we can make something similar (Structure, Cobra roll) They tried and failed, once again B&M did NOT design it.

 

JEFF

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^Lift hill Nice niew

First dop and inversion fun

Rest of it

 

Overall (before being reconfigured) Migraine machine, bruised shoulders from restraints

 

Overall (after reconfiguration) Not too good (but not as painful)

 

At least that sums it up for me.

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Aloha. I worked on DF for a short period of time (before the 1st corkscrew was removed after block brake) and I just have to say....OUCH....Dogh.....Ouweee.....HELP...lol I recall during maintenance was a NIGHTMARE and track inspections were brutal (notice the braces around the cobra roll/bat-wing element in later years versus opening year operations). I believe my ride count was about 500 something, but what i DO miss was riding/maintenance inspections AT NITE....amazing views! Too bad B&M couldnt perform that ride (similar contract went to BGT) and the ride would still be in operation today. But, my own personal belief was while working at the park...it was an extremely remote location (despite being close to the Festhaus)....the entrance was poorly designed and the area just needed more time to be expanded. Ahh but not all hope is gone forever. My crystal ball and contacts believe there is a WOODIE in the works for 2012...at the same time with a new country-theme/expansion.

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Thank you to haux (or should I say Chip?) for backing me up on this one.

 

 

Also, I don't believe Arrow would have seen concept plans for Kumba.

 

Let's look at it this way:

 

mid-1990: Busch comes up with a coaster design/concept for DF

late-1990: After approaching B&M and being turned down, Busch signs with Arrow for DF.

early-1991: DF's design is finalized by Arrow

mid-1991: Kumba concept is sketched by Busch artists, too late for Arrow to use these concept sketches, as the plans for DF are already finalized

late-1991: B&M awarded contract for Kumba, footers are poured for DF, DF track and support fabrication begins

early-1992: Kumba's design finalized, DF opens to the public

mid to late-1992: Kumba's footers are poured and track/support fabrication begins.

early-1993: Kumba opens.

 

 

Does that illustrate the approx. timeline well enough?

 

Unless the two concepts were developed simultaneously (which I doubt), the concept ideas for Kumba would have been non-exsistant/too vague at the point in time for Arrow to use in DF's design. Once the Kumba concept was finalized, DF's design was finished and track fabrication was probably underway.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, it would be nice for BGW to get a new coaster, but they won't get it in the old DF plot for two reasons:

 

1. It's too remote.

2. The residents of Kingsmill complained about the excessive noise of DF, which wasn't a particularly loud ride. No woodie or non-silenced coaster could go there, and even if the track was filled with sand, the screaming riders might still elicit complaints.

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Actually Kumba and Drachen Fire were designed at the same time but B&M didn't have the manpower to finish both projects, so BGW (which had a great relationship with Arrow) turned to them. Arrow used different engineering concepts and had to adjust accordingly, which is where the problems developed. Look at DF's supports and cobra roll. Arrow had never used anything like them. Arrow's designed around the same time have their traditional support system while DF has a very B&Mish system. Granted the designs were preliminary but Arrow used what they had and went from there.

 

Look, we can go around and around all year, the bottom line is that DF failed in every respect and that is why it's gone. I love my old coaster, but she didn't deliever the goods to most people.

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