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Six Flags St. Louis (SFStL) Discussion Thread

p. 550 - Hallowfest trip report!

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Dave and I both agreed that we would much rather see RMC come and put topper track on the Boss (which would cost less). They could change the banking or profile a tad here and there to add to the thrill but nothing over the top. The Boss' biggest problem is really the Gerstlauer trains. Holiday World was lucky to get rid of there's on the Legend pretty quickly. Topper track would also allow the ride to run whenever it is colder, and it would minimize the chance of the trains getting stuck in a valley. Gerstlauer's trains are so bad that the Boss had to run PTCs from Screamin' Eagle for media day, as the G trains wouldn't complete the circuit. Even today, the park is lucky to have a fantastic rides crew who knows the Boss really well. One of my good friends is the rides supervisor over that whole area of the parks (the park is separated into three areas, in terms of rides), and she loves the Boss. Each train (three total) has its own quirks and things you have to do.

 

You probably have never seen them, but there are a couple off-the-shelf yard sprinklers attached to the second huge turn around after the MCBR. They run them almost every morning before the park opens. Then, as the days get colder, there is one train (can't remember which color) that sometimes gets parked on the lift hill in order to warm up by sunning itself.

 

In the end, it's a case of Six Flags purchased a product from a company that ended up having some issues. Hearing stories and seeing things myself, it really amazes me how much work the rides staff put into making sure that the Boss can run three trains as much as possible. They truly go above and beyond what basic standard operating procedure would be to keep the line moving.

HWFan, first of all, I want to thank you for all the photos and information you are sharing with us. It is helpful to understand what is going on behind the scenes (even if I still don't agree on all the decisions). I agree that the topper track would be a better choice than Iron Horsing it. It is easy to compare it to high ranking coasters made since it (Outlaw Run, El Toro, Voyage, etc.). The layout is still one of the best I have experienced for a wooden coaster and many parks I have been to (Kings Dominion, SFOT, SFFT, SFMM, WOF, Busch Gardens Williamsburg) lack a wooden track coaster that is this tall and intense. The long line is evidence to value of this coaster, the primary problem is the roughness which I agree 100% is due to the trains. It is rough but not unbearably rough as the Rattler was in its last years where I was convinced I was going to have broken ribs from it in comparison.

 

HWFan, can you explain to me to help me understand why in light of these RMC conversions happening at so many other SF parks, why SFSTL doesn't just take a newly retired PTC train (or even better a Millennium Flyer train) fix it up and replace these clearly unreliable, painful, and thoroughly unlikable Gerstlauer trains?

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I think HWFan said something about the Boomerang that I think should be said more often. For what SFSL had, they did a fantastic job with the theming, placement of ride, and making the ride at least fairly enjoyable. I think that the park staff has not been credited with that achievement, and it's about time they should!

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I can answer that one. Weight. PTC, Millennium Flyer, and Timberliners are heavier than Gerstlauer. The ride structure was designed specifically to run Gerstlauer. The one time Boss ran the PTC from Eagle it beat the track up pretty bad. The added weight did help the trains complete the course without needing lead bags. In order to run different trains they would have to be the roughly the same weight or the entire structure would need to be redesigned. If swapping the trains was as simple as it sounded it would have happened a long time ago.

TNT, thank you for your answer. So if I am understanding this correctly when you say "the entire structure would need to be redesigned" you are talking about much more than just the track (meaning every bit of the structure)? This would mean that if a topper track would still require using the Gerstlauer trains? So, this means that when HW switched from Gerstlauers to PTCs they had to redo more than just the track? Is this one of those the cost of doing this would be almost the price of a new coaster?

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I think HWFan said something about the Boomerang that I think should be said more often. For what SFSL had, they did a fantastic job with the theming, placement of ride, and making the ride at least fairly enjoyable. I think that the park staff has not been credited with that achievement, and it's about time they should!

 

I don't know exactly how much theming there is on Boomarang, but I definitely agree with the park making the best out of the situation. I enjoy the color scheme, and they did a great job integrating the coaster into that section of the park

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I think HWFan said something about the Boomerang that I think should be said more often. For what SFSL had, they did a fantastic job with the theming, placement of ride, and making the ride at least fairly enjoyable. I think that the park staff has not been credited with that achievement, and it's about time they should!

 

I don't know exactly how much theming there is on Boomarang, but I definitely agree with the park making the best out of the situation. I enjoy the color scheme, and they did a great job integrating the coaster into that section of the park

By theming I did mean color scheme, which I think is the best part of the ride.

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I think HWFan said something about the Boomerang that I think should be said more often. For what SFSL had, they did a fantastic job with the theming, placement of ride, and making the ride at least fairly enjoyable. I think that the park staff has not been credited with that achievement, and it's about time they should!

 

I don't know exactly how much theming there is on Boomarang, but I definitely agree with the park making the best out of the situation. I enjoy the color scheme, and they did a great job integrating the coaster into that section of the park

By theming I did mean color scheme, which I think is the best part of the ride.

I promise I will try to be nice on this topic. It is nice that the park in more recent years with newer coasters has gone away from the mindset of "you may have your coaster in any color as long as that color is black." (I will never forgive them for changing the Ninja from the nice bright redish-orange to the depressing black. Having the Batman and Mine Train was already too many that were black) The orange and lime colors are not my favorite but it is definitely better than what Flashback had back when it was at SFOT . Having the people be able to walk underneath the track is a new thing (a good thing) for the park. The use of the steel roof means less maintenance and it looks good along with the stone work. I just wish with new rides they would use names that fit the theme of the section of the park.

 

Here are a couple ideas I have been kicking around just for the sake a discussion. Does anyone know how much it would cost ballpark comparison for Chance (Morgan) to build a modern terrain hyper coaster similar to Phantoms Revenge compared to a B&M or Intamin hyper? Also, what about RMC? What would a hyper coaster cost from them considering that they are just under the 200 mark on many of their coasters?

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Dave and I both agreed that we would much rather see RMC come and put topper track on the Boss (which would cost less). They could change the banking or profile a tad here and there to add to the thrill but nothing over the top. The Boss' biggest problem is really the Gerstlauer trains. Holiday World was lucky to get rid of there's on the Legend pretty quickly. Topper track would also allow the ride to run whenever it is colder, and it would minimize the chance of the trains getting stuck in a valley. Gerstlauer's trains are so bad that the Boss had to run PTCs from Screamin' Eagle for media day, as the G trains wouldn't complete the circuit. Even today, the park is lucky to have a fantastic rides crew who knows the Boss really well. One of my good friends is the rides supervisor over that whole area of the parks (the park is separated into three areas, in terms of rides), and she loves the Boss. Each train (three total) has its own quirks and things you have to do.

 

You probably have never seen them, but there are a couple off-the-shelf yard sprinklers attached to the second huge turn around after the MCBR. They run them almost every morning before the park opens. Then, as the days get colder, there is one train (can't remember which color) that sometimes gets parked on the lift hill in order to warm up by sunning itself.

 

In the end, it's a case of Six Flags purchased a product from a company that ended up having some issues. Hearing stories and seeing things myself, it really amazes me how much work the rides staff put into making sure that the Boss can run three trains as much as possible. They truly go above and beyond what basic standard operating procedure would be to keep the line moving.

 

Agreed that the G-Trains suck- but of the wooden coasters I've ridden that run them, I think they suck the least on Boss. Villain was probably the closest thing to Boss, but SFWoA/GL could have done a better job maintenance-wise. I actually dialed 911 to report attempted murder as soon as my train hit the brake-run on Hurricane Category 5.

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I can answer that one. Weight. PTC, Millennium Flyer, and Timberliners are heavier than Gerstlauer. The ride structure was designed specifically to run Gerstlauer. The one time Boss ran the PTC from Eagle it beat the track up pretty bad. The added weight did help the trains complete the course without needing lead bags. In order to run different trains they would have to be the roughly the same weight or the entire structure would need to be redesigned. If swapping the trains was as simple as it sounded it would have happened a long time ago.

TNT, thank you for your answer. So if I am understanding this correctly when you say "the entire structure would need to be redesigned" you are talking about much more than just the track (meaning every bit of the structure)? This would mean that if a topper track would still require using the Gerstlauer trains? So, this means that when HW switched from Gerstlauers to PTCs they had to redo more than just the track? Is this one of those the cost of doing this would be almost the price of a new coaster?

This is a bit confusing to me. I believe HW spent $3 million on Legend. Then, they got rid of the single G-train and replaced it, along with adding a transfer track and lengthening the station. All of the modification, including two new PTC trains, cost them around $250,000 from what I heard. Now, I do know that the Legend has received a good amount of extra bracing and new bracing over the years. With the Boss, it could also be different due to how high the turns and certain elements are compared to the Legend.

 

I wonder if when RMC came out to do some structural work on the Boss a few years back, this could have been something they were looking into with that. However, that's just pure speculation.

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^ The Legend has received quite a bit of lateral bracing but that's about it. If the GCI refurbishment of Ghostrider turns out to be successful, I wouldn't be against them coming and doing a similar refurbishment of The Boss with new Millennium Flyers. They would be able to redo the structure to run the trains while giving the ride a complete re-track. This would give the park a second chance to make The Boss the ride it should have been when it opened in 2000.

 

Of course, the park could always bring in RMC to put in their I-Box track and steel ledgers. If that happens, this talk about not having enough bracing on the structure/redoing the structure would become irrelevant. Oh.. and it would also instantly become a kick ass ride

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I think HWFan said something about the Boomerang that I think should be said more often. For what SFSL had, they did a fantastic job with the theming, placement of ride, and making the ride at least fairly enjoyable. I think that the park staff has not been credited with that achievement, and it's about time they should!

 

I don't know exactly how much theming there is on Boomarang, but I definitely agree with the park making the best out of the situation. I enjoy the color scheme, and they did a great job integrating the coaster into that section of the park

By theming I did mean color scheme, which I think is the best part of the ride.

I promise I will try to be nice on this topic. It is nice that the park in more recent years with newer coasters has gone away from the mindset of "you may have your coaster in any color as long as that color is black." (I will never forgive them for changing the Ninja from the nice bright redish-orange to the depressing black. Having the Batman and Mine Train was already too many that were black) The orange and lime colors are not my favorite but it is definitely better than what Flashback had back when it was at SFOT . Having the people be able to walk underneath the track is a new thing (a good thing) for the park. The use of the steel roof means less maintenance and it looks good along with the stone work. I just wish with new rides they would use names that fit the theme of the section of the park.

 

Here are a couple ideas I have been kicking around just for the sake a discussion. Does anyone know how much it would cost ballpark comparison for Chance (Morgan) to build a modern terrain hyper coaster similar to Phantoms Revenge compared to a B&M or Intamin hyper? Also, what about RMC? What would a hyper coaster cost from them considering that they are just under the 200 mark on many of their coasters?

 

DEFINITELY agree with you here. Especially RMC's good nature with Six Flags, you'd think they'd get first shot and a discounted rate for one of RMC's newer "monorail" steel coasters. Again, 2 birds with one stone. You get RMC's craziness and the steel you've been deserving/promised. I know it's a pipe dream, but if SF Corporate would just see the opportunity here, it'd be awesome. 2 areas: Remove Ninja and put in something like Dare Devil Dive or RMC OR remove Tidal Wave and get some life into the park back that way with some new steel. I'm dreaming, though.........obviously. I'm just going to visit Dollywood/SDC to get my RMC fill

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I come home from two days of work to a ton of information. Awesome. Thanks for all of your work, Josh.

 

Speaking of the land East of the park, these are two random screenshots my computer accidentally took of public webistes, so I'm not giving out any kind of information should there even be information that exists...or something...

 

 

I lol'd

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...If the GCI refurbishment of Ghostrider turns out to be successful, I wouldn't be against them coming and doing a similar refurbishment of The Boss with new Millennium Flyers...

No need for new Millennium Flyers. We already have two extra trains (from Roar at SFDK) sitting underneath Batman.

 

...Remove Ninja and put in something like Dare Devil Dive or RMC OR remove Tidal Wave and get some life into the park back that way with some new steel...

I actually suggested to Dave and mentioned a few weeks ago on here that they should replace Ninja with a Eurofighter-type coaster (maybe an S&S El Loco), theme it to something along the lines of "The Jokers Circus" and put Fireball at the bottom of the first drop with the coaster actually going through the "ring of fire". With the 70ft version of the superloop, I would think there'd be enough clearance. Besides, it'd be one of the coolest looking ride combos out there. Something that they could put in commercials and people would be like "Whoa".

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Freeze got off to a rough start, but I think it has been an overall success. It was a pretty technologically advanced coaster when it opened and there were few magnetically launched coasters in the works. For a lot of people it's one of the more memorable attractions we have.

 

Freeze was a lot of fun when I visited SFStL in 2013. It brought back a lot of "Chiller" memories from SFGAdv.

 

I definitely wish that SFGAdv had added a copy of Mr Freeze instead of the Chiller back in the late 90s. Chiller was fun, but even with their initial hiccups, both Freeze coasters haven't had NEARLY as many tech issues as the Chiller did. Makes me wonder if they went with a third Freeze clone instead of trying something different, would we still have it there today? Most likely.

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Probably so. All joking aside, I'm sure it would be running backwards by now, as with would Chiller if it hadn't had all of the technical difficulties.

 

I was fortunate enough to have ridden both sides of the chiller. I helped my best friend move to New Jersey when I was 13. His mom was awesome and she dropped us off at the park one day as a thanks for the move. Chiller was my favorite ride in the park, followed by Medusa, which was in its first season.

 

Some people were talking about Tempesto earlier. It's a fun ride, but nothing to write home about. It was definitely the least impressive of Busch's lineup. Although I would try not to complain if we received a premier launch clone at our park, it definitely shouldn't be near the top of our wish list.

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With SFSTL just buying all that land, could there be a possibility of a hyper, either RMC, Intamin or B&M(really don't care which), that would have a station where tidal wave is now? Then they could just send it out there into the big area, kinda like Great Adventure did with Nitro. Designers would have a TON of room to work with for different ride elements and ideas.

 

Also, regarding the whole infrastructure improvements. At the beggining of season I drove by heading to Tulsa, and the first thing I noticed was a ton of new paint, and how nice it looked. Kudos to everyone at SFSTL for trying their best to make people happy, and having the park look and function way better now than it did years back. Its good to know people who are passionate and care about it are helping it grow in ways we could have never imagined.

 

And I think a few people in the forum earlier said they would rather go to WOF than SFSTL. I went to WOF this spring and... well. It wasn't that good. In fact, I think I liked SFSTL better, and I'm not just saying that because SFSTL is my home park. I mean, Mamba was ok, but after riding it a few times in a row you didn't really want to again. Both prowler AND timberwolf weren't operating. I find it hard to beleive Prowler is better than American Thunder, and Boss is worse and rougher than Wolf. Patriot was definitely better than Batman, but I firmly believe that SFSTL is a better overall park.

 

BTW, this thread is WAY better and more interesting than WOF's. So Kudos to everyone on here who makes it so speical.

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With SFSTL just buying all that land, could there be a possibility of a hyper, either RMC, Intamin or B&M(really don't care which), that would have a station where tidal wave is now? Then they could just send it out there into the big area, kinda like Great Adventure did with Nitro. Designers would have a TON of room to work with for different ride elements and ideas.

 

Also, regarding the whole infrastructure improvements. At the beggining of season I drove by heading to Tulsa, and the first thing I noticed was a ton of new paint, and how nice it looked. Kudos to everyone at SFSTL for trying their best to make people happy, and having the park look and function way better now than it did years back. Its good to know people who are passionate and care about it are helping it grow in ways we could have never imagined.

 

And I think a few people in the forum earlier said they would rather go to WOF than SFSTL. I went to WOF this spring and... well. It wasn't that good. In fact, I think I liked SFSTL better, and I'm not just saying that because SFSTL is my home park. I mean, Mamba was ok, but after riding it a few times in a row you didn't really want to again. Both prowler AND timberwolf weren't operating. I find it hard to beleive Prowler is better than American Thunder, and Boss is worse and rougher than Wolf. Patriot was definitely better than Batman, but I firmly believe that SFSTL is a better overall park.

 

BTW, this thread is WAY better and more interesting than WOF's. So Kudos to everyone on here who makes it so speical.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that SFStL is an all around better park and experience than Worlds of Fun. That being said,however, Prowler is better than American Thunder. I'm not saying American Thunder is bad, because it is a really great ride - but Prowler's layout through the woods and that "bouncy" return run are pretty great.

 

I always see people say "get rid of Ninja" and put something else in its place. I just don't understand this. It is certainly not a great coaster - but maintain it and put something new elsewhere. My home park was SFoG - that Ninja is MUCH more vicious than SFStL's, and it still runs and gets riders. If nothing else, whoever is in line for that isn't in line for Mr. Freeze or Batman

 

Just my $0.02

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^^I agree with all of that.

 

With SFSTL just buying all that land, could there be a possibility of a hyper, either RMC, Intamin or B&M(really don't care which), that would have a station where tidal wave is now? Then they could just send it out there into the big area, kinda like Great Adventure did with Nitro. Designers would have a TON of room to work with for different ride elements and ideas.

 

SFSTL already owns that land and has been trying to sell much it.

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Yes, that land has been owned by the park since the late 60's when all the property was bought. The land has been "for sale" for a long time and will never be developed.... ever! This discussion has been had quite a few times on here. If it does ever sell, they wouldn't sell all of it, but my guess is 75% to 80% of it. Someday when theres another housing boom, you will see this land sell quickly.

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Yes, that land has been owned by the park since the late 60's when all the property was bought. The land has been "for sale" for a long time and will never be developed.... ever! This discussion has been had quite a few times on here. If it does ever sell, they wouldn't sell all of it, but my guess is 75% to 80% of it. Someday when theres another housing boom, you will see this land sell quickly.

I highly suggest sprinkling some salt on those words. It makes them much tastier.

 

I think my problem is that when I hint at things, it's either too obvious or too sneaky and is never caught. I will say this, you guys haven't examined those screenshots (from the government website on pg. 672) closely enough.

Edited by HWFan
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BTW, this thread is WAY better and more interesting than WOF's. So Kudos to everyone on here who makes it so speical.

Only thing I agree with in your post. Let´s be honest... the only thing SFSTL has on WoF is the TPR thread.

Okay, so "let's be honest." I think it's important that people remember how subjective parks are, just like bands or artists. While there are obviously some times where you can more definitively say which of two parks is better, most of the time, you can't. There are people who prefer Six Flags over Disney/Universal, even with their $200million rides. It all has to do with what people are looking for.

 

I've never been to World's of Fun, but it seems like a really nice park that I can hopefully visit next summer (especially because I get in free anyway). However, if we're supposed to take you seriously, then that means you must prefer a fairly small, Eli Bridge Ferris Wheel to Colossus (the tallest ferris wheel in a theme park in the US that originally came from the world's fair in Louisiana). Or that you would prefer no dark ride at all (I couldn't find one listed online at least) over JLBM? Both parks have their strengths.

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