Photo TR: Magic Planet at Mall of the Emirates.

[shepp]

It's true that I oversimplified. I should have said "some courts" rather than "the courts." And while the UAE does not have a free press, reporters are not subject to the same level of persecution as in other Arab countries.

 

On the other hand, it's my understanding that it's not just drunkenness that can get you jailed, it's possession without a permit. And yes, the President is elected, but it's by the Supreme Council - an unelected, dynastic body. (Though since Jose lives in Florida, he's probably used to dynastic politics and unelected rulers.) Dubai may be "accepting of other cultures," but if you're Israeli, they won't let you in, and if you try to convert Muslims to Christianity, they'll throw you out.

 

I'll grant you that the USA is hardly an ideal society. And I'm far from blindly anti-Islamic. I've traveled in Morocco, Egypt, Turkey, Jordan, and Syria, and enjoyed them all. I will also say that I've felt safer from crime in the dictatorial countries I've visited, such as Burma and Syria, than I do in San Francisco.

 

On the other hand, I suppose your safety depends on who you are. As Human Rights Watch says of the migrant workers who make up 90% of the UAE workforce, "Migrants, including large numbers of women employed as domestic servants, face intimidation and violence, including sexual assault, at the hands of employers, supervisors, sponsors and police and security forces. Children are especially vulnerable to labor and sexual exploitation and denial of basic rights."

 

I do understand that some things are changing. (For example, it is now supposedly illegal to use six-year-old boys as camel jockeys.) But to call the UAE "a very free society" sure seems like stretching the point.

[Jose Eber]

^Just because its different doesn't make it any less liberating.

[aflack]

Dubai Dave,

 

Can you tell us anything about the propossed theme parks there, like when they are due for completion.

 

The architects I work for is working on the design of the Restless Planet area and I think our work is due to be complete early next year. They are signing up the ride manufacturers at the moment I believe their are two German companies but the actual budget for the 3 rides is larger than the building which is 60 million pounds in itself.

 

I heard that the water park/sea park is due to be completed in 2007 but I think maybe thats a bit to soon?

 

Is this Snow World place you have posted pictures off, the one that is being built in Dubailand?

[shepp]

^Just because its different doesn't make it any less liberating.

 

Well, since you chose to respond, I'm curious enough to ask: You actually would define a society where there are no elections, no freedom of the press or guarantees of freedom of speech, where at least part of the justice system defines women as inferior to men, and there's widespread sexual slavery and most of the workforce is stripped of their rights as "liberating?" Wow, dude, bring back the Taliban!

 

We know you're opposed to adultery, but how about the case of an Indian national who was convicted, without witnesses or confessions, merely of having spent time alone with a housemaid (not of adultery) and was sentenced to 90 lashes, a month in prison, and deportation? Is that different enough for you? (The woman, maybe not surprisingly, was whipped more - 150 lashes. I can see why your wife might be reluctant to move.)

 

Yeah, I can see how some people in the UAE - essentially well-to-do Arab men and corporate guest workers - could find it liberating...especially if they felt like raping their foreign-born maids. Dubai seems like a prime example of a money-can-buy-you-anything, nouveau petro-rich society. If you're born (male) into one of the ruling families, what's not to like? But, um...

 

And just for the record again, I am neither anti-Islamic nor a cultural imperialist. I understand that the U.S. idea of an ideal life might not be desirable to everyone on the globe. (And I doubt I would've started this rant if dubaidave hadn't characterized the UAE as "very free," as though it were Sweden with sand.) I've spent significant time visiting North Africa, the Middle East, and Northern India, for instance, and have been to, despite qualms, countries with pretty unsavory governments, always trying to maximize money to locals and minimize money to the dictatorships. I'm curious, Jose. Have you spent - as I have, having spent almost a month in Burma and several weeks in al-Assad's Syria - spent any time in countries with repressive regimes? (And no, I'm not placing the UAE in the same class as Burma, which is worse...) Did you find the dictatorship different-but-liberating? And did you give any thought to the lives of the people who lived there?

[Rastuso]

Yeah, I can see how some people in the UAE - essentially well-to-do Arab men and corporate guest workers - could find it liberating...especially if they felt like raping their foreign-born maids. Dubai seems like a prime example of a money-can-buy-you-anything, nouveau petro-rich society. If you're born (male) into one of the ruling families, what's not to like? But, um...

 

Exactly. Even the "good" Arab countries have horrible human rights laws and some sort of state sponsored racism and sexism.

 

Americans working there are the same class as natives. European nationals are a bit lower, and then there are the Indians and Pakistanis that are treated like shit. And the women vary in their shit receiving level depending on the country.

 

I always find it quite sad/scary that many people that have all sorts of issues with the horrible plight of blacks and others in the US are the same folks that don't think we should be in Iraq. America is a freakin' utopia for everyone. Damn near every Arab and African country has a class system of some sort that is strictly enforced by the government. It's good to be the King, as you said. The media attacks Bush for mistreating blacks in New Orleans, but thinks Saddam should still be in power. That line of thought is so F-ed up it's insane. Anyone who has any value to human rights whatsover should have no respect for any Arab government.

 

My company has built some things in Saudi Arabia. There are some groups of people that simply don't matter there. If an Indian falls to his death during construction, who cares. As long as no Arabs, Americans, or Europeans die, they can claim a successful safety record.

 

Rastus O'Ginga

[Jose Eber]

Oh Shepp,

 

The west (and any American in particular) is the last entity on earth to point the finger on the east (or middle east for that matter) and judge them on human rights issues. The amount of violence we have in our own backyard is an utter joke. Saudi Arabia has 1/10 the murder rate of the U.S. Qatar specifically, neighbor of UAE has 1/40th the murder rate.

 

Then you have child poverty. America is number 2 globally. What was that about human rights? We can't even feed our children. Only Mexico is worse. America is an embarrassment. Saudi Arabia, or Qatar don't even register.

 

Then there is this issue of rape you keep bringing up. America has the largest incidence of rape in the world per capita. We are the worst. Saudi Arabia has 1/1000th as many rapes per capita. I for one will tolerate keeping women out of harms way if it brings down rape by 1000 times.

 

Someone was talking about the way UAE treats Indians. If a Mexican dies crossing the border or in work, does any american care? Don't Texans use Mexicans as target practice?

 

So Shepp please, for your sake, shut up. I've proven you wrong on so many counts. You seem like a bigot and racist. Your ignorance in these matters is extensive.

 

J.

[SFMM rocks my socks]

Cool pics That roller coaster thingy looks really fun doen't see why themeparks dont have them.

[Rastuso]

Where do you get your facts? The back of a box of Lefty-Os cereal?

 

Let's run 'em down here.

 

Murder and rape. Yep, there are probably more per capita in the US, but all murderers and rapists are thrown in jail. Well, unless they get a good wack-job liberal lawyer and plead insanity. In Arab countries, rape is OK, if it is between the right two people. Surely you can comprehend a difference between a government OK'ing some murders, and a country that is violent because of a myriad of things. And, surely you consider terrorism murder, don't you? Many Arab countries have been known to sponser terrorism.

 

Do you really expect anyone to agree that the US is #2 in child poverty? Many African countries are filled with children living in sewage and eating dirt. Find me a single child in this country that has a bloated stomach like the African ones you see. I'd guess about 99.99% of all African kids would give literally thier left arm if they could eat as well as the average kid in the US in poverty. You're so whacked out here, it's scary that you are allowed to coexist with society.

 

And do you really equate someone dying while they invade our country with a cast system that puts a vastly lower value on the lives of some races as compared to others?

 

I hope you are like 11 or something. Because if you are an adult with such a poor grasp on reality, and so full of our media propaganda, you should be embarrassed to let others know it.

 

But since you already pulled out the Liberalism 101 trait of calling anyone who thinks differently than you a racist and a bigot, I can see there is little hope. Please spare us all in the US and just move to China with the rest of the Socialists. They'd love to have you there devoting your life for the betterment of Kim Jong Il's.

 

After all, he's quite ronery.

 

 

Rastus O'Ginga

Sorry for RRC-izing this thread Robb.

[Jose Eber]

So you mock the way a Korean speaks English but say I'm 11 years old? Incidentally, can you read? My age is clearly marked by my name and oh, by the way, you misspelt Kim's name. Hyphen small i.

 

Do you even speak a foreign language btw? Just curious.

 

Research is easy to come by and I knew some person was going attempt to undermine it or question it. A bit futile. Just a bit.

 

The Child Poverty stats are from Unicef (those commie bastards). Remember poverty is an index in this chart. Its related to the national median income.

 

The murder per capita rate is from the UN (those liberal hippies!) United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000

 

The Rape incidence reports (you are mindless trying to explain 1000x the rape discrepancy) is from the same UN report.

 

Its not to say these reports are all favorable for the UAE or the Middle East in general -- in terms of corruption, UAE has nearly 2x the factor of the U.S.

 

Your line of reasoning escapes me here...yes there are such things as fundamentalist followers of Islam. But what does that have to do with what I'm talking about. Terrorism isn't a Middle East problem only dumb ass. Heard of Northern Ireland? And didn't Pat Robertson recently call for the death of a certain political figure?

 

I'm so tired of Country bashing -- we are all equal, yet different -- is that so hard to grasp? Or do you not believe in the American constitution Rastuso.

 

To me, you sound like the 11 year old.

[Rastuso]

I love it. Correcting spelling is always a sign of desperation. And it says a LOT about you that you correct me on how to spell China's socialist dictator's name, yet you don't capitalize Constitution when refering to the US Constitution. It's clear where your priorities are.

 

You're even admitting your poverty rates are based on median income. THe US median income is probably 10 times that of many countries, meaning that some countries are almost 100% in the US poverty range. And those lovely socialist countries have flat income curves, hence the term socialist.

 

I like how you act like calling the UN or UNicef commies is wrong. I guess the whole oil for food scandal was just made up by the Republicans?

 

You simply don't get the whole murder and rape issue. In Arab countries, a man can forcibly have sex with certain women and it is NOT rape and will NEVER be reported as such. Some people can kill other people, and it's really no big deal. So your numbers are absolutely meaningless. Don't you get it? But, I'm sure you also think terrorists can be reasoned with. Perhaps you should move to France. Be sure to take your car with you, they're running out of them.

 

Well, since you can't even accept that terrorists are about 99% Muslim in the entire history of man, you put your ideology in front of facts. Again, not very impressive on the intelligence scale. You think the IRA was like Al Queda? Are you really that stupid??? Al Queda just kills. They don't care who, ask Jordan about that. They just kill. They don't plan on stopping until their Muslim brothers have killed all the infidels. The IRA wanted Northern Ireland back from British Rule. Do you really equate those two things? I mean, I realize you're a moron, but that's pushing it even for folks with single digit IQs.

 

And how is bashing other countries against the Constitution? Do you even know what the Constitution is? The Constitution is for AMERICANS. Yes, the liberals want it to protect terrorists too. It's frankly scary as hell, but there are plenty of idiots like you that keep on voting for them. Mr. Hancock is spinning so fast in his grave, he's close to creating a black hole

 

Hell YES I think the US is the best country in the world. And if you don't, then get the **** out!!!!!!!!

 

Rastus O'Ginga

Sorry again Robb : )

Edited November 17, 2005 by Rastuso

[SharkTums]

Ok, let's leave the politics somewhere else and focus more on these crazy parks, rides, ski places etc. in Dubai!

[ShoubraStreet74]

So, so sorry to bring this up, but I felt I had to clear up a horrible misconception in the earlier post.

 

In Arab countries, rape is OK, if it is between the right two people.

 

I find that hard to believe since Islam prohibits rape or adultery. Why would an Islamic theocracy say it's O.K. if Islam itself clearly forbids it?

 

Just in case there are doubts, here is an article outlining Islam's rules on rape. http://www.submission.org/women/rape.html Many others can be found with some quick searching.

 

Not that it matters, but I have lived in Egypt and Jordan for several years when I was younger.

 

Again, sorry for bringing this up, but I couldn't help but correct something that is completely false and honestly is quite offending.

[Rastuso]

So, so sorry to bring this up, but I felt I had to clear up a horrible misconception in the earlier post.

 

In Arab countries, rape is OK, if it is between the right two people.

 

I find that hard to believe since Islam prohibits rape or adultery. Why would an Islamic theocracy say it's O.K. if Islam itself clearly forbids it?

 

 

First off, I said "Arab", not Islamic. Not all Arab countries are ran by Islamic fundamentalists. Heck, Iraq wasn't that much.

 

Secondly, since in some highly Islamic states, women can't even defend themselves, that sorta makes rape hard to prove. Yep, adultery is against the Islam faith. And of course, no Christians ever have adultery or pre-marital sex, because that's a no-no. C'mon do you live in reality? Where did the 19 ultra-Islamist hijackers go before 9/11?

 

Las Vegas, not exactly Mecca. You have heard of the word hypocrisy, haven't you?

 

I'm offended that your name contains the numbers 4 and 7.

 

Rastus O'Ginga

[dubaidave]

Jeez Guys.

 

sorry I even spoke.

Why dont you guys take the argument to RRC where this sort of crap is all that goes on.

Come on guys. You have ruin RRC please dont do the same to this board.

[shepp]

Oh Shepp,

 

The west (and any American in particular) is the last entity on earth to point the finger on the east (or middle east for that matter) and judge them on human rights issues. The amount of violence we have in our own backyard is an utter joke. Saudi Arabia has 1/10 the murder rate of the U.S. Qatar specifically, neighbor of UAE has 1/40th the murder rate.

 

Then you have child poverty. America is number 2 globally. What was that about human rights? We can't even feed our children. Only Mexico is worse. America is an embarrassment. Saudi Arabia, or Qatar don't even register.

 

Then there is this issue of rape you keep bringing up. America has the largest incidence of rape in the world per capita. We are the worst. Saudi Arabia has 1/1000th as many rapes per capita. I for one will tolerate keeping women out of harms way if it brings down rape by 1000 times.

 

Someone was talking about the way UAE treats Indians. If a Mexican dies crossing the border or in work, does any american care? Don't Texans use Mexicans as target practice?

 

So Shepp please, for your sake, shut up. I've proven you wrong on so many counts. You seem like a bigot and racist. Your ignorance in these matters is extensive.

 

J.

 

Jesus, thanks for using the "r" word.

 

Listen, I'm sorry, but I think that a woman receiving 150 lashes for being alone in a room with a man is barbaric. You can play two wrongs make a right, but dude, that's torture. Unless you want to play Ultimate Postmodern Relativist, it's wrong, and if she were your sister, you'd see that.

 

Yes, I also think the Bush administration is barbaric, but that doesn't mitigate the fact that under shari'a law - one of the UAE's dual legal systems - a woman who's been raped must find four MALE witnesses to the actual crime or else the accused can charge her with slander or she can be accused of adultery. The fact that America is awash with handgun violence doesn't make that any less appalling, now does it? And as far as comparative rape statistics: if I were a woman in such circumstances, would I even bother to bring charges if I'd been raped in front of, oh, just three men? You think the rape reporting stats in shari'a-governed countries might not be just a tad skewed?

 

As far as you proving me wrong "on many counts"...oh, puh-leeze. You retorted that the UAE's president is elected by a Council, without bothering to mention that the Council is unelected and heriditary, a situation pretty much as democratic as feudal England. And you tell me that little can be done about floggings because prostitution is a "tourist-based industry?" Huh? I'm definitely missing something... Meanwhile, you call me ignorant while coming up with loony factoids like the US having the second worst child poverty in the world? Holy cow!!!!! Worse than all but one of India, China, Ecuador, Rwanda, Haiti, Brazil? Jeez, you don't get out much, do you? Oh wait...those UNICEF figures are not "global," as you state. They're a comparison of the 26 richest countries. Small matter, I guess, if you're proving me wrong.

 

When you criticize the USA from the comfort of Disneytown, does that make you a Commmunist? Of course not. The fact that I hate the brutalities of of shari'a every bit as much as I despise Vicious White Guys like O'Reilly and Robertson hadly makes me a racist, or Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International racist organizations for publicizing the cases I've mentioned.

 

Though the discussion has gotten unexpectedly heated, unlike you, I have not resorted to ad hominem attacks. I never would say, for instance, "How like a straight man to idealize a society in which women are still treated as second-class citizens with the government's approval...Probably a misogynist." (Hey, I'll just ask this straight out: two Saudi gay lovers being beheaded by their government for their "crime" - just a little quirk to be overlooked in a warm wash of It's A Small Worldism? Because after all, there are gay-bashers in the USA?)

 

Dude, let's play a little thought game. Let's say you move your family - in a spirit of crosscultural understanding - to a country where shari'a holds sway. And let's say your wife, heaven forbid, is assaulted in full view of half a dozen women, but their testimony is insufficient to convict. Would you be "a bigot" for thinking the situation was just a tad screwed?

 

OK, that's my last word on the matter: I would rather not take this any further. (Oh, and btw, back when I was posting on alt.rec.rollercoaster, I was regularly and deeply offended by Rastus' posts, and so am sort of appalled to be even remotely on the same side of this. Ah well.) Actually, I had been prepared to not to post any more, but I found myself being called a racist bigot. So I have just two more words:

Edited November 17, 2005 by shepp

[Stitch]

I think having a Frisbee indoors is awesome!

[3rdShiftCM]

So, Indoor ski runs very cool

[Canadmos]

Great pictures Dubaidave!

[Jose Eber]

There's a time to argue a time to lay low. Laying low now.

 

Keep up the photos.

 

Incidentally Dave, when is the Dubai Mall (is that the official name?)supposed to open (the one by the Burj Dubai). Does that have some attractions in it? Skiing in one mall, skating in another -- too fun!

 

Also, (as if I'm not a burden enough) -- aside from infrastructure, any thing being physically constructed in the Dubailand plot yet?

 

THX keep up the great work, I think you are the only consistent poster from Dubai!

[dubaidave]

^ The Dubai mall is due to open next year, I have not heard of any attractions yet, other than the fact that you enter through glass tunnels in a massive aquarium!.

The is some movement at the Dubailand site. I will start a new topic for it after I have been up there this weekend.

[SharkTums]

^Sounds great!

 

Your stupid TR's have convinced Robb and I to head out your way sometime in the next couple of years. So you better be there to give us the grand tour!

[dubaidave]

^I will let you know when would be a good time.

Someone was asking about the indoor Frisbee. Here are a couple of pics of it in operation. It does get VERY close to the wall.

And a final shot of the Bob Sled run.

A slightly better shot of the snow

Is this an American Chain? Some of the seats are on swings.

complete with Elissa friendly food container

and the black hole

A slightly better pic of the robocaoster

[Mind Eraser]

That "indoor Frisbee" you photographed is a Zamperla Discovery.

[dubaidave]

^ Thanks for that, I guesed it was Zamperla, they seem to have the FEC market sown up out here, I only called it a frisbee because someone earlier in the thread called it that.

Thaks for the info

[Mind Eraser]

This is the first outward facing Zamperla Discovery I have seen. I believe the original model faced inwards. I rode the inward facing one at Martin's Fantasy Island (NY) and it was one fo the better frisbee-type rides.