Six Flags Over Texas (SFOT) Discussion Thread

[OFFice357]

Well, according to that photo, this may actually turn out to be operator error. I didn't realize the sign specifically stated the bar must touch the thigh. That said, there's no way to tell at this point, it very well could be something entirely different.

[chickenbowl]

Speculation:

 

1) It is common to see ride operators struggle to fit obese people into the restraints on various rides. I myself have seen occasions where 2-3 strong ride operators were nearly horizontal while throwing their entire combined body weight into the restraint in order to make the green light turn on. While there are no reports of this happening on NTAG, it is certainly possible and even plausible that at least one operator had to exert additional force in order to close the restraint and satisfy the sensor. Whether or not this is accepted park practice I don't know, but it is fairly common.

 

2) According to reports that have since proven unreliable, the woman expressed worry that she felt the restraint was not securing her properly.

 

3) I believe the lap bar was pressed into her bosom or stomach, leaving ample room between the lap bar and her legs. The first pop of ejector air could have forced her stomach/chest out and over the lap bar, leaving her essentially unsecured in the seat. The next pop of ejector air launched her from the ride.

 

4) The woman likely panicked after the first moment of ejector air and didn't have the time, energy, strength or thought to re-fasten her lap bar around her waist. She also wouldn't have enough upper body strength to hold on to the restraints in order to prevent ejection.

 

5) A lap seat belt could have prevented ejection from happening, but newer rides with hydraulic restraints are believed to not need seat belts due to the statistical impossibility of the restraints failing. It's also impossible for the manufacturer to test the restraints for every possible human body shape and size. This accident required the perfect storm of rider body type, operation conditions and G-forces to happen. Thus I don't believe the blame can be placed on the manufacturer of the trains in court, and certainly not RMC.

 

6) As a result of this death, several things could and might happen. One thing they could do is implement new lap bars with tighter shin bars that restrict leg movement, like Outlaw Run. Another possibility is seat belts, but the park will favor the shin bars because that won't affect ride capacity. They may also reprogram the ride controller to force the restraint closing angle to be even tighter. They will also likely revisit their policies of how to secure overweight guests. Other rides like Outlaw Run should not be affected, but knee jerk reactions are always a possibility in these types of tragedies.

 

To me, this all seems like the most likely and reasonable scenario. We don't know for sure yet, but I guess we'll all see soon.

 

She fell out of the ride, OBVIOUSLY the lap bar failed. I'm not saying it sprang open, I'm saying it failed to keep her in the train. Not statistically impossible, because it happened. I'm not putting words into your mouth, I myself am saying the only reason they wouldn't put seat belts in is due to cost and ride capacity, and we see here that if they had been installed, this woman would still be alive, so obviously they were necessary. This was not a safe ride.

 

If if was indeed a case of the restraint resting on her stomach and not her thighs, than it is 100% not a lap bar failure like you said. The ride regulations clearly state: "Lap bar must firmly contact top of leg on thigh." I don't believe that ride rule was met.

[TNT]

Deleted 

[V2-dude]

Facts:

 

1) The Gerstlauer trains running on NTAG use hydraulic restraints. Hydraulic restraints do not fail in such a way that it could cause the restraints to release. This is because the restraints fail in the locked position. It is physically impossible for the restraint to have released during the ride. The only way to release the restraints after they have been locked is either in the station via high voltage contacts underneath the train, or via special portable power packs that apply the necessary voltage to unlock the restraints that a mechanic can take to an evacuation location in the event of emergency stop.

 

2) The ride is computer controlled, and there are sensors on each restraint that measure the angle of the lap bar. The lap bar must be pushed in far enough to exceed the minimum required angle for safe operation, at which point the green light turns on. The lap bar sensor is not able to gauge HOW the bar is sitting in relation to the rider's mass and body shape, only the closing angle. Thus there is no way for the restraint to indicate whether or not the bar was in contact with the rider's legs.

 

3) The train cannot be dispatched (even manually) unless all restraints are secure and all green lights are on. The train was successfully dispatched, so we can effectively rule out lap bar failure from the cause of death.

 

4) The victim is very large in stature and appears to be very top heavy, with a larger midsection compared to hips and thighs.

 

5) The Superman investigation revealed a body type that would not be properly secured by the ride restraints. The typical body type is large midsection and disproportionately small waist and legs.

 

6) NTAG is filled with ejector air time.

 

8) Hydraulic restraints are fairly difficult to push down and require effort.

 

 

Having worked on coasters with hydraulic restraints (Including a Gerstlauer), I can back this up. Most of everything stated by Fender13 is true. The only thing I have experienced that differs from the quoted post is that the Gerstlauer I have worked on could indeed be dispatched with the restraints up in Manual Mode, which only maintenance has access to.

[chadster]

^^Lets go with that for a very quick moment. If she had a panic attack, even if there was a seatbelt installed the seatbelt could have easily been released, as is on most rides with them, in order to aide in freeing herself. The addition of a seatbelt would not have helped.

 

Of course seatbelts really don't matter in this case as this restraint system does not need them by design.

 

^In manual mode, virtually anything is possible, you are correct.

[Dr. M]

^^Lets go with that for a very quick moment. If she had a panic attack, even if there was a seatbelt installed the seatbelt could have easily been released, as is on most rides with them, in order to aide in freeing herself. The addition of a seatbelt would not have helped.

 

Of course seatbelts really don't matter in this case as this restraint system does not need them by design.

 

^In manual mode, virtually anything is possible, you are correct.

 

You say it could have "easily" been released, but I've been on plenty of rides where it's not immediately obvious how the belt is released and it takes one or two tries before you get it. In the midst of a panic attack, it's possible she wouldn't have been able to release it, especially with increased pressure on the mechanism from the forces. It's all meaningless speculation anyway. Maybe if she'd felt the seat belt securing her, she wouldn't have panicked in the first place!

Edited July 22, 2013 by Dr. M

[Fender13]

Facts:

 

1) The Gerstlauer trains running on NTAG use hydraulic restraints. Hydraulic restraints do not fail in such a way that it could cause the restraints to release. This is because the restraints fail in the locked position. It is physically impossible for the restraint to have released during the ride. The only way to release the restraints after they have been locked is either in the station via high voltage contacts underneath the train, or via special portable power packs that apply the necessary voltage to unlock the restraints that a mechanic can take to an evacuation location in the event of emergency stop.

 

2) The ride is computer controlled, and there are sensors on each restraint that measure the angle of the lap bar. The lap bar must be pushed in far enough to exceed the minimum required angle for safe operation, at which point the green light turns on. The lap bar sensor is not able to gauge HOW the bar is sitting in relation to the rider's mass and body shape, only the closing angle. Thus there is no way for the restraint to indicate whether or not the bar was in contact with the rider's legs.

 

3) The train cannot be dispatched (even manually) unless all restraints are secure and all green lights are on. The train was successfully dispatched, so we can effectively rule out lap bar failure from the cause of death.

 

4) The victim is very large in stature and appears to be very top heavy, with a larger midsection compared to hips and thighs.

 

5) The Superman investigation revealed a body type that would not be properly secured by the ride restraints. The typical body type is large midsection and disproportionately small waist and legs.

 

6) NTAG is filled with ejector air time.

 

8) Hydraulic restraints are fairly difficult to push down and require effort.

 

 

Having worked on coasters with hydraulic restraints (Including a Gerstlauer), I can back this up. Most of everything stated by Fender13 is true. The only thing I have experienced that differs from the quoted post is that the Gerstlauer I have worked on could indeed be dispatched with the restraints up in Manual Mode, which only maintenance has access to.

 

Thanks for the correction. Of course I'm sure they will conclude that wasn't the case, but it's a valid thing to note.

[Vigil]

So I was explaining this to my mother, and I think what it will come down to is just that the trains had an almost unforeseeable design flaw and that it was a perfect storm with regards to body shape and lap bar distance/angle. There is no way the ops could've known because everything indicated she was fine. I don't quite understand the discussions saying that she was too large to ride because if you look at the picture (https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/p320x320/999648_484139811674658_1129613659_n.jpg) she doesn't actually look too big where it would an issue, in her or stomach lap area. She seems to carry most of her weight in her upper body. My mom said she doesn't look anything like what she was expecting when I said "size seems to have been a factor." Of course we don't know how dated the photo is or if the angle hides it, but she really doesn't seem too big.

 

When I was explaining it to her, I was using Apollo's Chariot as an example and said that for a rider to fall out, the femur would literally have to break in half. If the above were the case, would her weight, the majority of which was above the lap bar, and therefore unsupported, combined with the ridiculous airtime be able to put enough stress on her legs to break them? I mean if she had smaller legs or--complete speculation here--bone weakness or something, it might be possible? A bit of a stretch, but perhaps no more unlikely than the one in a million chance that accident would happen in the first place. It would explain the lack of mechanical failure and the lack of an immediate explanation because (forgive the morbidity) after the fall her bones were probably broken anyway, so it'd be hard to tell. It's such a weird and terrible accident.

[Dr. M]

When I was explaining it to her, I was using Apollo's Chariot as an example and said that for a rider to fall out, the femur would literally have to break in half. If the above were the case, would her weight, the majority of which was above the lap bar, and therefore unsupported, combined with the ridiculous airtime be able to put enough stress on her legs to break them? I mean if she had smaller legs or--complete speculation here--bone weakness or something, it might be possible? A bit of a stretch, but perhaps no more unlikely than the one in a million chance that accident would happen in the first place. It would explain the lack of mechanical failure and the lack of an immediate explanation because (forgive the morbidity) after the fall her bones were probably broken anyway, so it'd be hard to tell. It's such a weird and terrible accident.

 

Watch this video that was posted a couple pages back and it's very easy to see how she slipped out, no broken bones involved. I've sort of changed my mind about all this, it seems to be primarily operator error. This video combined with the entrance sign posted above pretty much tells you all you need to know. The bar was touching her belly or bosom, not her thighs, so it didn't come down far enough to properly secure her, and the sign clearly explains that that has to be avoided.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0KmTMf0VVQ

 

Really not much more to say, I guess.

[Vigil]

Oh, I understand the video, I was just saying how I'm not sure it applies because it doesn't look like she had that much of a gut. Again, I don't know how it looked when she sat down, but she seemed to carry most of the weight in her upper body which wouldn't inhibit a lap bar. The man in the video had a 56" waist. Her waist doesn't seem to be the problem. Then again, even though we know that the "click" story is just wrong, it does seems to be an indication they did have an issue with getting the bar down?

[Dr. M]

Oh, I understand the video, I was just saying how I'm not sure it applies because it doesn't look like she had that much of a gut. Again, I don't know how it looked when she sat down, but she seemed to carry most of the weight in her upper body which wouldn't inhibit a lap bar. The man in the video had a 56" waist. Her waist doesn't seem to be the problem. Then again, even though we know that the "clickity clack clucky ducky QUACK" story is just wrong, it does seems to be an indication they did have an issue with getting the bar down?

 

I don't believe anyone has seen a photo of her that shows her whole body and that we know was recent. She was obviously on the larger side. Although the eye witness accounts aren't 100% accurate they do seem to support that she needed help (i.e. the full weight of a ride attendant) to get the lap bar down far enough, and that she didn't feel safe (i.e. she could feel the bar wasn't touching her thighs like it should). The weight in her upper body, like you see in the video, is exactly what would've caused the problem, all the weight above her waist which is what got in the way. I guess it's possible she might not have even been *that* big, if her belly hung down far enough.

 

It does make me wonder why this kind of thing doesn't happen more often.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Dr. M

[chadster]

^^Lets go with that for a very quick moment. If she had a panic attack, even if there was a seatbelt installed the seatbelt could have easily been released, as is on most rides with them, in order to aide in freeing herself. The addition of a seatbelt would not have helped.

 

Of course seatbelts really don't matter in this case as this restraint system does not need them by design.

 

^In manual mode, virtually anything is possible, you are correct.

 

You say it could have "easily" been released, but I've been on plenty of rides where it's not immediately obvious how the belt is released and it takes one or two tries before you get it. In the midst of a panic attack, it's possible she wouldn't have been able to release it, especially with increased pressure on the mechanism from the forces. It's all meaningless speculation anyway. Maybe if she'd felt the seat belt securing her, she wouldn't have panicked in the first place!

 

You seriously need to let your seat belt crusade go.

[boardwalkbullet91507]

There's no way her femurs could have broken. The human femur takes around 160 PSI to break. It just doesn't seem possible. Plus, she has two femurs meaning there has to be a total amount of 320 PSI for both to break simultaneously considering the force is divided equally among the two femurs (it's like lifting a 100 pound object, 100 pounds lifting it yourself, 50 pounds each if you have a buddy.) That, and although called a lap bar, they tend to sit at the waist putting the pressure elsewhere anyways.

[beatle11]

I've sort of changed my mind about all this, it seems to be primarily operator error. This video combined with the entrance sign posted above pretty much tells you all you need to know. The bar was touching her belly or bosom, not her thighs, so it didn't come down far enough to properly secure her, and the sign clearly explains that that has to be avoided.

 

Do we have confirmation that the bar was indeed touching her belly/bosom and not her thighs? If that is the case, then I would be inclined to agree with you.

[rubysparkles]

It looks like it has more to do with the size of her gut compared to the size of her legs. So if her legs were more in proportion to the size of her belly, it might have not happened. Too much speculation though.

 

I'm surprised to see the ride sign said that the lapbar must touch the thighs. I think that is going to be an important factor in deciding who is to blame.

[chadster]

I've sort of changed my mind about all this, it seems to be primarily operator error. This video combined with the entrance sign posted above pretty much tells you all you need to know. The bar was touching her belly or bosom, not her thighs, so it didn't come down far enough to properly secure her, and the sign clearly explains that that has to be avoided.

 

Do we have confirmation that the bar was indeed touching her belly/bosom and not her thighs? If that is the case, then I would be inclined to agree with you.

 

No. The only thing that is confirmed is that the she is dead.

[Dr. M]

I've sort of changed my mind about all this, it seems to be primarily operator error. This video combined with the entrance sign posted above pretty much tells you all you need to know. The bar was touching her belly or bosom, not her thighs, so it didn't come down far enough to properly secure her, and the sign clearly explains that that has to be avoided.

 

Do we have confirmation that the bar was indeed touching her belly/bosom and not her thighs? If that is the case, then I would be inclined to agree with you.

 

It's all just speculation, but can somebody come up with an alternate scenario that makes sense?

[Dr. M]

You seriously need to let your seat belt crusade go.

 

The only reason I'm willing to back down on that is because of just how explicitly the sign indicates how the bar must be in contact with your thighs. If, after this accident, it's determined that the ride must install seat belts, then I'll have been vindicated, because it means the ride should've had them from the beginning, and if it had, this woman may still be alive. I'm not sure why anyone is so dead set against them.

[Cavs Fan]

As far as seat belts go, I honestly think that a seat belt wouldn't have helped her in that situation because due to her body shape it may have not been able to be fasten in the first place, thus she would be turned back and not be allowed to ride.

 

Heck, I'm I small guy and I have trouble with seatbelts sometimes.

[V2-dude]

Sorry for the double post.

Edited July 22, 2013 by V2-dude

[V2-dude]

a seat belt wouldn't have helped her

 

she would be turned back and not be allowed to ride.

 

....

So, apparently not being able to ride is a less favorable outcome when compared to death.

 

 

 

 

 

I must say though, seat belts really add to dispatch times, which in turn result in longer lines. As stated before, they are there for redundancy. Hydraulic restraints already have back-up systems, hence a lot of them have no seat belts.

Edited July 22, 2013 by V2-dude

[chadster]

You seriously need to let your seat belt crusade go.

 

The only reason I'm willing to back down on that is because of just how explicitly the sign indicates how the bar must be in contact with your thighs. If, after this accident, it's determined that the ride must install seat belts, then I'll have been vindicated, because it means the ride should've had them from the beginning, and if it had, this woman may still be alive. I'm not sure why anyone is so dead set against them.

 

OMG, did you seriously just post this? Vindicated? What are we, in middle school?

 

Study up on how these restraints work and then you will understand a bit more.

[Dr. M]

If the ride operators can't or won't tell riders when they're not secured properly even though the lap bar is down far enough, and a seat belt could indicate that, then maybe the ride should've had seat belts. I don't know if that's true, but if it is, then avoiding longer dispatch times is a pretty shitty reason for making a ride less safe.

 

If I'm so ignorant chadster, then why don't you educate me?

[chadster]

Study up on how these restraints work and then you will understand a bit more.

 

If I'm so ignorant chadster, then why don't you educate me?

 

I would suggest starting here

[Dr. M]

Oh good lord, this is why I gave up trying to discuss things with people on online forums. Just throw a link at me that doesn't at all answer the question at hand, then when I point that out, tell me I didn't read it. Go ahead.