Six Flags Over Texas (SFOT) Discussion Thread

[Sportsdude360]

I'll try to get out to the park tomorrow. I'm curious as to how busy the park will be, as well as the media circus.

[TexasThrillSeekers]

I'll try to get out to the park tomorrow. I'm curious as to how busy the park will be, as well as the media circus.

I don't think Friday's incident will have much affect on attendance, it sure didn't Saturday, it was crazy busy before the rain storm.

[willh51]

That animation above is what I imagined in my head happened when I first heard about the NTAG death. I was trying to explain to a relative today why the bar may have been locked and never failed but a person could still fly out.

[Great White]

Correct me if I'm but doesn't NaTG have a lapbar system that prevents the train from being dispatched if a lap bar doesn't reach past a certain angle? I know for a fact that I-rat has it but I never payed attention to NaTG if it had it.

[larrygator]

Someone posted this. it`s from the Superman accident. Maybe the same thing happened here?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0KmTMf0VVQ

Yeah, if I had to place my bets, something like this is exactly what happened.

 

Another thing to remember about the S:ROS accident at SFNE is the rider had celebral palsy and extremely underdeveloped legs (much thinner than the ones of the man in the animation) due to muscle atrophy. So that made it even easier for him to slide up and out.

Edited July 22, 2013 by larrygator

[Dr. M]

I've been following this thread since the news broke, and I know I don't have anything particularly to add that hasn't already been said, except that I seem to be a little more shocked by this whole thing than most of the others posting. Because at the end of the day, a roller coaster killed somebody, and that shouldn't be possible.

 

I just don't understand HOW this could have happened. We've already established that a) the lap bar has to be lowered a set amount to be considered safe, b) the ride train has a clear method of indicating whether each lap bar has reached that position, and so it follows that c) all ride operators have the ability to make sure each passenger is securely restrained before the train dispatches. We know that the fault here is NOT with the rider. The victim had no way of knowing if she was securely restrained, because it's not her job to know. So where was the failure? Either the ride operator dispatched the train when one of those green lights weren't lit, which shouldn't be possible, so the ultimate conclusion has to be that the designers of the train made it possible for a restraint to INDICATE that it was locked in a safe position when it WASN'T.

 

I just keep thinking that this could have been my mom, it could have been ANYONE'S mom. It's terrifying, and I think we deserve an explanation, including a reason why this would never happen again. If the park covers up what went wrong, like that article implies, which wouldn't surprise me, well, that's just freaking terrible (and should not be legal).

[Great White]

^possibly they might of bypassed the lap bar system But the ride maintenance are the only people that could bypass it since they got the ride keys for manual mode and maintenance mode.

[TXman308]

^^I personally believe that it was just a very bad circumstance: that the dimensions of the rider were just right to allow the lap bar to lock, but not be able to restrain her properly. I believe that the ride attendants could of questioned it, but late in the day after a long day of work the operators probably weren't specifically looking at where the lap bar was positioned on her (if it was even possible to tell.

I believe that Six Flags should install seat-belts on the ride, where they limit the size of the riders that are allowed on, and probably another accident like this won't happen again. However I would not be shocked if we start to see a (hopefully brief) return to OTSRs, as the GP begin to demand it.

[Sportsdude360]

It was stated that the woman panicked. I wonder if, in her panic, she actually tried to free herself from the restraints.

[Dr. M]

There should be no judgement call to make on the part of the operator. Either it's locked in a safe position or it isn't. I don't understand why this was possible. If the ride needed seat belts, it should have freaking had seat belts.

 

^I wish people would stop saying things that don't make any sense. Even if she did for some bizarre reason try to free herself, if she was safely restrained then that wouldn't have been possible.

[chickenbowl]

^I wish people would stop saying things that don't make any sense. Even if she did for some bizarre reason try to free herself, if she was safely restrained then that wouldn't have been possible.

 

Unless her body shape is that of which the trains and restraints aren't designed for. I have a feeling this wouldn't happen to "anybody's mom," unless you're mom was too large to ride. I believe this will turn out to be operator error for letting her ride in the first place. (Similar to the ride of steel accident in 2011)

[_IntaMAN_]

According to local police, no foul play was found in the death of the woman and that it's up to Six Flags now to find out what went wrong: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324328904578620242679678664?mg=reno64-wsj.html%3Fdsk%3Dy

[larrygator]

I believe this will turn out to be operator error for letting her ride in the first place. (Similar to the ride of steel accident in 2011)

 

How is it operator error if there are no rules stating that she is too large too ride? I have not heard of there being a sign of this nature for NTG. It's only operator error if the operator did not follow established protocol.

 

The Ride of Steel accident is a completely different scenario since Darien Lake had signs posted that you need to have a certain number of limbs to ride.

[corona79]

Ah, so that was it - I remembered that earlier accident, but not where it happened. I do recall that there were supposedly signs up, but I checked the park web site after the accident and there were no such requirements listed for that ride.

[chickenbowl]

I believe this will turn out to be operator error for letting her ride in the first place. (Similar to the ride of steel accident in 2011)

 

How is it operator error if there are no rules stating that she is too large too ride? I have not heard of there being a sign of this nature for NTAG. It's only operator error if the operator did not follow established protocol.

 

The Ride of Steel accident is a completely different scenario since Darien Lake had signs posted that you need to have a certain number of limbs to ride.

 

You're right! And that's why this is a sticky situation. It's hard to point blame when the rider was not in design specifications, but there's no way to check to see if she is.

[larrygator]

Let's also remember that last year a man with no hands sued this same park because they wouldn't let him New Texas Giant (and other rides) because he had no hands.

[IsThisTheRealLife]

It was stated that the woman panicked. I wonder if, in her panic, she actually tried to free herself from the restraints.

 

That actually makes a good point. If she actually panicked, she may have tried to get out and slipped through the bars.

[Dr. M]

I don't see why it's that complicated. If the ride system indicated she was safely restrained, and she wasn't, then the blame lies squarely on the company that designed the trains. And that seems to be the only logical explanation. When I say this could have been anyone's mom, obviously I mean if your mom was of that magical shape and size that Gerstlauer apparently didn't know people came in. But what about her proportions were so unusual? Sure the picture only shows her about from her shoulders up, but she looked like an ordinary person on the very large side. I'm gonna keep saying this, how could this have happened?

 

It was stated that the woman panicked. I wonder if, in her panic, she actually tried to free herself from the restraints.

 

That actually makes a good point. If she actually panicked, she may have tried to get out and slipped through the bars.

 

I would like somebody to explain to me why this in any way makes sense. If she was scared, why would she try to get OUT of her restraints? And how could she possibly succeed? Wouldn't it make more sense that she fell out either due to negative g-forces or the car turning 90 degrees sideways? Because she wasn't secured properly? I think people just want to blame the victim, but it's not happening, it wasn't anything she did wrong.

[OFFice357]

Signs around the ride state that a rider must have two real and non prosthetic legs in order to ride. Now, it would make sense that this policy is in place to make sure that the rider is secure in their seat. This is purely speculation, I have no way of knowing what actually occurred, but if I had to render a guess, I would think that the lap bar was only touching the rider's stomach and not her thighs. I can see the riding policy being appended to include the requirement that the lap bar be touching the thighs of the rider. If this is a case, this whole incident is a matter of park riding policy and not error on the ride attendant's part.

[Fender13]

Facts:

 

1) The Gerstlauer trains running on NTAG use hydraulic restraints. Hydraulic restraints do not fail in such a way that it could cause the restraints to release. This is because the restraints fail in the locked position. It is physically impossible for the restraint to have released during the ride. The only way to release the restraints after they have been locked is either in the station via high voltage contacts underneath the train, or via special portable power packs that apply the necessary voltage to unlock the restraints that a mechanic can take to an evacuation location in the event of emergency stop.

 

2) The ride is computer controlled, and there are sensors on each restraint that measure the angle of the lap bar. The lap bar must be pushed in far enough to exceed the minimum required angle for safe operation, at which point the green light turns on. The lap bar sensor is not able to gauge HOW the bar is sitting in relation to the rider's mass and body shape, only the closing angle. Thus there is no way for the restraint to indicate whether or not the bar was in contact with the rider's legs.

 

3) The train cannot be dispatched (even manually) unless all restraints are secure and all green lights are on. The train was successfully dispatched, so we can effectively rule out lap bar failure from the cause of death.

 

4) The victim is very large in stature and appears to be very top heavy, with a larger midsection compared to hips and thighs.

 

5) The Superman investigation revealed a body type that would not be properly secured by the ride restraints. The typical body type is large midsection and disproportionately small waist and legs.

 

6) NTAG is filled with ejector air time.

 

8) Hydraulic restraints are fairly difficult to push down and require effort.

 

 

Speculation:

 

1) It is common to see ride operators struggle to fit obese people into the restraints on various rides. I myself have seen occasions where 2-3 strong ride operators were nearly horizontal while throwing their entire combined body weight into the restraint in order to make the green light turn on. While there are no reports of this happening on NTAG, it is certainly possible and even plausible that at least one operator had to exert additional force in order to close the restraint and satisfy the sensor. Whether or not this is accepted park practice I don't know, but it is fairly common.

 

2) According to reports that have since proven unreliable, the woman expressed worry that she felt the restraint was not securing her properly.

 

3) I believe the lap bar was pressed into her bosom or stomach, leaving ample room between the lap bar and her legs. The first pop of ejector air could have forced her stomach/chest out and over the lap bar, leaving her essentially unsecured in the seat. The next pop of ejector air launched her from the ride.

 

4) The woman likely panicked after the first moment of ejector air and didn't have the time, energy, strength or thought to re-fasten her lap bar around her waist. She also wouldn't have enough upper body strength to hold on to the restraints in order to prevent ejection.

 

5) A lap seat belt could have prevented ejection from happening, but newer rides with hydraulic restraints are believed to not need seat belts due to the statistical impossibility of the restraints failing. It's also impossible for the manufacturer to test the restraints for every possible human body shape and size. This accident required the perfect storm of rider body type, operation conditions and G-forces to happen. Thus I don't believe the blame can be placed on the manufacturer of the trains in court, and certainly not RMC.

 

6) As a result of this death, several things could and might happen. One thing they could do is implement new lap bars with tighter shin bars that restrict leg movement, like Outlaw Run. Another possibility is seat belts, but the park will favor the shin bars because that won't affect ride capacity. They may also reprogram the ride controller to force the restraint closing angle to be even tighter. They will also likely revisit their policies of how to secure overweight guests. Other rides like Outlaw Run should not be affected, but knee jerk reactions are always a possibility in these types of tragedies.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Fender13

[IsThisTheRealLife]

I don't see why it's that complicated. If the ride system indicated she was safely restrained, and she wasn't, then the blame lies squarely on the company that designed the trains. And that seems to be the only logical explanation. When I say this could have been anyone's mom, obviously I mean if your mom was of that magical shape and size that Gerstlauer apparently didn't know people came in. But what about her proportions were so unusual? Sure the picture only shows her about from her shoulders up, but she looked like an ordinary person on the very large side. I'm gonna keep saying this, how could this have happened?

 

It was stated that the woman panicked. I wonder if, in her panic, she actually tried to free herself from the restraints.

 

That actually makes a good point. If she actually panicked, she may have tried to get out and slipped through the bars.

 

I would like somebody to explain to me why this in any way makes sense. If she was scared, why would she try to get OUT of her restraints? And how could she possibly succeed? Wouldn't it make more sense that she fell out either due to negative g-forces or the car turning 90 degrees sideways? Because she wasn't secured properly? I think people just want to blame the victim, but it's not happening, it wasn't anything she did wrong.

 

 

Now that you said it, I realized that my earlier post really didn't make sense

[Dr. M]

5) A lap seat belt could have prevented ejection from happening, but newer rides with hydraulic restraints are believed to not need seat belts due to the statistical impossibility of the restraints failing. It's also impossible for the manufacturer to test the restraints for every possible human body shape and size. This accident required the perfect storm of rider body type, operation conditions and G-forces to happen. Thus I don't believe the blame can be placed on the manufacturer of the trains in court, and certainly not RMC.

 

This is where the entire issue lies, and I'm sorry but I don't buy it. If there are conditions where the lap bar can fail, and we KNOW this is true because it's happened on other rides in the past, then there should have been seat belts. If they didn't want to install them because they reduce capacity, then the designers and the park created an unsafe ride in the name of increased profit margins, no more, no less, and they should be held accountable.

 

As an aside, I've never ridden a ride with shin bars. Now that I see what they actually look like, I must say they don't look comfortable at all. Though I guess I'd prefer them to OTSR.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Dr. M

[Fender13]

5) A lap seat belt could have prevented ejection from happening, but newer rides with hydraulic restraints are believed to not need seat belts due to the statistical impossibility of the restraints failing. It's also impossible for the manufacturer to test the restraints for every possible human body shape and size. This accident required the perfect storm of rider body type, operation conditions and G-forces to happen. Thus I don't believe the blame can be placed on the manufacturer of the trains in court, and certainly not RMC.

 

This is where the entire issue lies, and I'm sorry but I don't buy it. If there are conditions where the lap bar can fail, and we KNOW this is true because it's happened on other rides in the past, then there should have been seat belts. If they didn't want to install them because they reduce capacity, then the designers and the park created an unsafe ride in the name of increased profit margins, no more, no less, and they should be held accountable.

 

As an aside, I've never ridden a ride with shin bars. Now that I see what they actually look like, I must say they don't look comfortable at all. Though I guess I'd prefer them to OTSR.

 

No, you're making a distinction here. The issue is not the lap bar failing, because it's statistically impossible. I also want to point out that you're putting words in my mouth about the seat belts. I never claimed the manufacturer intentionally left them out against safety protocol just for rider capacity gains. I don't have access to all the safety studies and mechanical testing they performed, but most if not all hydraulic restraints do not have seat belts. And that is across multiple manufacturers. The real issue here is that apparently there is not a one-size-fits-all restraint that can fit all body types at the programmed minimum restraint angle, and that's something I can't speculate about because I haven't seen the data.

[chadster]

I believe this will turn out to be operator error for letting her ride in the first place. (Similar to the ride of steel accident in 2011)

 

How is it operator error if there are no rules stating that she is too large too ride? I have not heard of there being a sign of this nature for NTAG. It's only operator error if the operator did not follow established protocol.

 

 

2011 ride sign.

Edited July 22, 2013 by chadster

[Dr. M]

5) A lap seat belt could have prevented ejection from happening, but newer rides with hydraulic restraints are believed to not need seat belts due to the statistical impossibility of the restraints failing. It's also impossible for the manufacturer to test the restraints for every possible human body shape and size. This accident required the perfect storm of rider body type, operation conditions and G-forces to happen. Thus I don't believe the blame can be placed on the manufacturer of the trains in court, and certainly not RMC.

 

This is where the entire issue lies, and I'm sorry but I don't buy it. If there are conditions where the lap bar can fail, and we KNOW this is true because it's happened on other rides in the past, then there should have been seat belts. If they didn't want to install them because they reduce capacity, then the designers and the park created an unsafe ride in the name of increased profit margins, no more, no less, and they should be held accountable.

 

As an aside, I've never ridden a ride with shin bars. Now that I see what they actually look like, I must say they don't look comfortable at all. Though I guess I'd prefer them to OTSR.

 

No, you're making a distinction here. The issue is not the lap bar failing, because it's statistically impossible. I also want to point out that you're putting words in my mouth about the seat belts. I never claimed the manufacturer intentionally left them out against safety protocol just for rider capacity gains. I don't have access to all the safety studies and mechanical testing they performed, but most if not all hydraulic restraints do not have seat belts. And that is across multiple manufacturers.

 

She fell out of the ride, OBVIOUSLY the lap bar failed. I'm not saying it sprang open, I'm saying it failed to keep her in the train. Not statistically impossible, because it happened. I'm not putting words into your mouth, I myself am saying the only reason they wouldn't put seat belts in is due to cost and ride capacity, and we see here that if they had been installed, this woman would still be alive, so obviously they were necessary. I can't speak for all hydraulic restraints but in this case, this was/is not a safe ride, for riders of a certain body type. Why should they not be held responsible?