Six Flags Over Texas (SFOT) Discussion Thread

[xSmKxGamegod]

Dragon Khan: The MCBR is there for blocking the trains. Unless a ride operator hit the e-stop during the trains ride around the circuit, the brakes will not stop the train even if a restraint popped open, which I can to a certainty, assure you in this case, it did not. Restraints do not come undone. Especially hydraulic restraints which have numerous backup safety systems in place even when under extreme extreme pressure. In fact, I'd wager the steel of the restraint would snap before the hydraulic mechanism fails.

 

Nothing is certain of course, but I would imagine this is going to be human error (ie should not have let this person ride) instead of a ride malfunction.

 

 

I know at least on the NTAG that it would stop at a brake run if the harness had come free, I know too many people at the park lol. But I'm almost certain it'll be case of the harness couldn't secure the way it was designed cause of her size and that's how she slipped out, hence the reports of people saying the train returned with the harness down. The ride is nothing but designed negative hills, it couldn't come loose and then tighten back in place. It's unfortunate, but the story will be that the ride operated normally, that everything on the roller coaster is operating normally. It was a case of park employees probably not wanting a discrimination suit brought upon them. SFOT has been the victim the last year of guests filing lawsuits for discrimination for a number of things, so that may have been in their mind. It's either that, or they truly weren't paying attention.

[Silperez]

Just saw a report on the news about the incident. They are claiming that the restraint didnt close the entire way, and that when the victim told the ride attendant they said that it would be okay. My condolences to the family and friends of the victim.

[golfburner1]

They need to use the test seat and have it actually be set up correctly. If it doesn't click enough times they cant ride! If they are too wide they cant ride. It would have saved this persons life if she would have been denied the ability to ride.

[codywatkins]

I don't think there was a malfunction of any kind. I am willing to bed that the rider (Rosy) pulled the restraint down against her stomach, not her waist. I don't think she was ever safely secured. Then on that first turn, she slipped out. At SFOT, Batman The Ride used to have a test seat. I feel like that would make sense for every ride. Put a test seat near the entrance of every rollercoaster and have someone on staff in charge of making sure everyone is safe to ride before they get in line.

Edited July 20, 2013 by codywatkins

[Eaglefan9727]

My condolences to the family and friends of the victim.

[LouMerica]

Again, if the ride DOESN'T malfunction, which in this case it didn't, the rides not going to stop no matter what safety or braking systems you have on the ride.

 

The only way to stop a train anywhere on the track would be brakes on the train or along the entire track. Just not logical, and in this case would not saved the woman either because her restraint never moved.

 

Just an unfortunate incident and the park will have to implement being better at denying people to ride who cannot be safely restrained.

[lk2500]

From what we've discussed I would guess they won't find anybody really at fault. How is the attendant supposed to know if the lap restraint is on somebody's gut or exactly on the person's thighs without digging through clothing or putting their hand physically under the restraint to check? I wonder if they are taught to watch or check for this in particular. I can guarantee they will from now on or that an additional restraint will be added. Does anybody know if there are any signs posted with instructions to riders on how to make sure the restraint is properly positioned?

Edited July 20, 2013 by lk2500

[codywatkins]

Again, if the ride DOESN'T malfunction, which in this case it didn't, the rides not going to stop no matter what safety or braking systems you have on the ride.

 

True.

[OCJ48]

Also, the technology that stops the ride at the mid-course break if a sensor is triggered doesn't really make sense. Like on Titan (Which is not a hydraulic system. It "clicks"). What if a restraint came undone during the turnaround, and on the camel back hill someone got thrown off? On any rollercoaster, there are many opportunities before the mid-course break for riders to be thrown off in the event of a restraint malfunction, right? It seems like there should be a way for the train to stop at any time. So like as soon as a restraint comes loose, or as soon as something malfunctions, the ride would come screaming to a stop. I don't know if that would even work, or how that would be implemented. Like for instance, on a drop, obviously the train couldn't just stop...

 

But I'm just spitballing here. Thoughts anyone?

 

There are a couple of problems with adding a system that stops a roller coaster at any point. The biggest one is that it's effectively impossible to evac riders in the case of an emergency from any elevated position on the ride. MCBRs have stairs and platforms for that purpose, normal hills don't. Adding systems to stop trains add weight, complexity, and, potentially, friction, reducing the thrill of the ride. Also, you'd have to find a way to gradually stop the train, anything especially sudden would result in a higher possibility to eject in case of failure.

 

It's not a terrible idea, and I'm sure it's possible from an engineering standpoint, but implementing it would add massive cost and complexity and reduce reliability. It's much easier to add redundancy to restraints.

 

As for this disaster, it's a tragedy, but hopefully one that will result in a fix to whatever caused this. Adding seatbelts seems like the most likely outcome to me, but I'm not an engineer, of course.

 

Also, I can see "click" becoming another forum filter.

[coasterlover420]

You're right Rob, first post by the way Been a fan for years, but I live here in Dallas and I go to SFOT almost every week and the Texas Giant is usually a minimum 3 rides a day for me, the restraint is damn hard to pull down and the employees I noticed this year on every ride have actually been taking their job of securing people in more seriously so I was shocked by this. The NTAG staff always ALWAYS before they send off the train don't just lightly tap the restraint and say ''check'', they shove the thing with both hands to make sure you're in. Yes I'm speculating, but given your comment and how, no offense to her because it's sad she died. This is a case where likely the restraint didn't get to her thighs which is where it's meant to go as we all know. And so she literally probably slipped out like a bar of soap, I doubt any seat belt attached to the harness would have saved her. I know a lot about the safety systems being a junkie of the ride and I know ride ops who have run it. The system WILL not let the train move if everything is not secured. The brake run halfway through would have stopped the train if the system detected something ''unsafe'' and they would have made the other passengers walk down the safety exits from the ride. So that's how I'm going to perceive it logically until the investigation report comes out because that is what now seems to make the most sense. Anyone agree?

THIS. When I rode NTAG, what I remember was that every different host that checked my seat stapled me. I was not upset at all because after riding the ride, I was thankful they did! But it wasn't just an 'oops I accidentally stapled that guy,' it was obviously intentional. They really leaned into it.

 

Also, I have NEVER heard of mid course brakes having sensors on them that detect lap bars. I'm only familiar with B&M coasters, however. Is there any actual proof that this is true of NTAG? It honestly sounds like some BS that someone made up in light of this event. What I know is that if there is a malfunction with restraints, it would be detectable RIGHT after it is locked by the ride. There are times when a restraint does malfunction and it's instantly detected by the ride host so the seat isn't loaded. I just can't really imagine a scenario where something DURING the ride would cause a restraint to malfunction. These are heavy duty cylinders! What usually happens is it doesn't lock after being released, not that it randomly releases itself. I only know the functions of Intamin restraints, but I imagine they are all the same design.

 

If anything changes on the ride, I would expect them to add seat belts. They hold riders in differently than lap bars, and restrict vertical movement much more...just my 2 cents.

[xSmKxGamegod]

Okay I wasn't trying to sound confusing with the ''ride will stop when there is a problem'' statement. What I was trying to say is, the ride will stop after it has started at the first opportunity IF something is wrong, in this case since the ride continued it did not sense something wrong, meaning her harness never moved from it's locked position.

 

As for who asked about Titan, for example if that were to happen the ride would proceed to it's mid brake run and stop if a restraint came loose, I personally feel really secure on the NTAG, but even more secure on Titan lol

[StLCPfan]

Okay, the posters speculating that the restraint was on her belly and not under just do not understand how the Gerstlauer lap bars work. As a bigger guy whose weight fluctuates I can tell you they would not have let the ride dispatch if the lap bar hadn't been down to the green light position. It happened to me on Pandemonium last year when I was about 20 pounds heavier than usual. The green light didn't go on and the ride ops had to push a little more, not uncomfortably more, than it was already onto my lap to get the clear to dispatch. These lap bars are not like a PTC wood coaster with no air that they let substantially larger than average people rest on the belly. The green light position is on the lap. While the speculation over the combination of her weight and the extreme forces on TG is plausible, the questioning whether the lap bar was down far enough to secure her into the seat is not. They just would not have sent the train onto the course if the lap bar had been resting on her belly instead of on her legs.

Edited July 20, 2013 by StLCPfan

[codywatkins]

Yeah that makes sense. It's not logical to add technology that would stop the ride at any time. One guy said a few posts ago that restraints cannot come undone. I hope that's the case. I haven't ever heard of restraints popping open during a ride. If certain technologies don't allow the restraints to come open, then there is no point to add brakes everywhere. It just comes down to making sure everyone fits in their seat properly.

 

I don't think this is the ride op's fault at all. Just a freak accident. Hopefully Texas Giant will open up again soon. I don't think there's anything wrong with the ride.

[xSmKxGamegod]

You're right Rob, first post by the way Been a fan for years, but I live here in Dallas and I go to SFOT almost every week and the Texas Giant is usually a minimum 3 rides a day for me, the restraint is damn hard to pull down and the employees I noticed this year on every ride have actually been taking their job of securing people in more seriously so I was shocked by this. The NTAG staff always ALWAYS before they send off the train don't just lightly tap the restraint and say ''check'', they shove the thing with both hands to make sure you're in. Yes I'm speculating, but given your comment and how, no offense to her because it's sad she died. This is a case where likely the restraint didn't get to her thighs which is where it's meant to go as we all know. And so she literally probably slipped out like a bar of soap, I doubt any seat belt attached to the harness would have saved her. I know a lot about the safety systems being a junkie of the ride and I know ride ops who have run it. The system WILL not let the train move if everything is not secured. The brake run halfway through would have stopped the train if the system detected something ''unsafe'' and they would have made the other passengers walk down the safety exits from the ride. So that's how I'm going to perceive it logically until the investigation report comes out because that is what now seems to make the most sense. Anyone agree?

THIS. When I rode NTAG, what I remember was that every different host that checked my seat stapled me. I was not upset at all because after riding the ride, I was thankful they did! But it wasn't just an 'oops I accidentally stapled that guy,' it was obviously intentional. They really leaned into it.

 

Also, I have NEVER heard of mid course brakes having sensors on them that detect lap bars. I'm only familiar with B&M coasters, however. Is there any actual proof that this is true of NTAG? It honestly sounds like some BS that someone made up in light of this event. What I know is that if there is a malfunction with restraints, it would be detectable RIGHT after it is locked by the ride. There are times when a restraint does malfunction and it's instantly detected by the ride host so the seat isn't loaded. I just can't really imagine a scenario where something DURING the ride would cause a restraint to malfunction. These are heavy duty cylinders! What usually happens is it doesn't lock after being released, not that it randomly releases itself. I only know the functions of Intamin restraints, but I imagine they are all the same design.

 

If anything changes on the ride, I would expect them to add seat belts. They hold riders in differently than lap bars, and restrict vertical movement much more...just my 2 cents.

 

 

I get what your saying, what I was saying has been misinterpreted. My proof is I've worked on the ride =P so I learned ALL about the safety systems and how they'll work etc. incase of an incident such as this. The whole point I was making was since the ride was able to leave, and it didn't stop at the brake run because she was out right after the first drop. Then nothing actually malfunctioned. That was my whole point.

[xSmKxGamegod]

"I don't think this is the ride op's fault at all. Just a freak accident. Hopefully Texas Giant will open up again soon. I don't think there's anything wrong with the ride."

 

Agreed Cody, I'll happily be first in line when it's open again. I love that ride.

[PalmTree55]

They need to use the test seat and have it actually be set up correctly. If it doesn't click enough times they cant ride! If they are too wide they cant ride. It would have saved this persons life if she would have been denied the ability to ride.

 

 

The restraints DON'T CLICK!

[LouMerica]

Living In America I'm getting used to it but it just amazes me that a ride can run near flawlessly for years on end, have thousands upon thousands of riders who have ridden safely, then you get ONE person that shouldn't have been on the ride in the firstplace be involved in an admittedly tragic accident and all of a sudden the restraints that have worked so well are no longer an adequate means of restraint?

 

Not saying thats what is going to happen, but if it does it all just seems so knee-jerk and unnecessary.

[Sammy*]

This situation sounds eerily similar to the Perilous Plunge incident at Knotts Berry Farm where the restraint did not fail, the dimensions of the rider allowed her to slip out of the restraint when the airtime forces occured.

 

This is what happens: lap restraints are designed to be rest against your waist. When you're sitting, your knees and waist allow your torso to create an angle where you're secure. When a person is overweight the lap restraint is not pressed against your waist, its pressed against your gut. When the forces of the ride occur your gut flails around and moves, allowing a tremendous gap between your waist and restraint where the gut once was. Hit a hill at the right time, the gut moves above the restraint, your body is no longer secure, and an airtime hill will throw you like you're not even wearing a restraint at all (because at that point you're really not).

We were actually just discussing how similar this seems to the Perilous Plunge accident. If you remember, they had to re-design the restraints on that ride, and unfortunately, what the end resulted ended up being very uncomfortable and greatly impacted the capacity of the ride. Hopefully the same doesn't happen for Texas Giant.

 

Also, I have now heard conflicting reports of Iron Rattler being open. Can anyone confirm if the ride is open or closed?

 

I'm hearing that all Fiesta Texas rides are open. If Iron Rattler is indeed operating, that could mean no modification or uncomfortable restrains will be added. If the restraints are changed, (I hope not), hopefully they would op for the same traditional lap bars as Titans.

If the victims size or shape is determined to be a factor in the incident. As uncomfortable as it may make riders. I think some form of measuring body portions may be the only answer. Unfortuntely that could leave riders who are top heavy feeling descriminated against. Does anyone know if Outlaw is operating?

Edited July 21, 2013 by Sammy*

[TXman308]

^^Welcome to America: Home of Lawyers and people without common sense.

 

Thoughts and Prayers to the Family.

[alpengeist04]

I say just slap on some Millennium Force seatbelts and call it a day.

[Krandor]

Living In America I'm getting used to it but it just amazes me that a ride can run near flawlessly for years on end, have thousands upon thousands of riders who have ridden safely, then you get ONE person that shouldn't have been on the ride in the firstplace be involved in an admittedly tragic accident and all of a sudden the restraints that have worked so well are no longer an adequate means of restraint?

 

Not saying thats what is going to happen, but if it does it all just seems so knee-jerk and unnecessary.

 

I understand your point, but the bottom line is they HAVE to do one of these two things

 

1) Change restraints so that somebody with her body type can ride safely

2) Change procedures and/or sensors so somebody with her body type is not allowed to ride.

 

Which way they go we'll just have to wait and see. They could do like Cedar Point and make the restraints much less forgiving

[Mozart67]

i wish there was a little more rider prudence, as I am sure has been stated many times before on this thread. By way of explanation, i stopped riding for 4 years (with the exception of Boulder Dash two years ago..and only once) because my weight had become untenable and not fit for coastering. I won't say it's a typically American conceit for some riders to think it's okay to heist their bulk into a train and expect natural and engineered forces to instantly compensate for weights/forces they are not completely designed for, but I have rarely encountered that blanket assumption anyplace but here. As I said..am not trying to be hate-mongering, just passing on an observation.

 

Just a very tragic incident all around; am waiting patiently and avidly for new information and analyses. as is everyone.

 

(completely unrelated: it is great to be back on my favorite website after months and months of not being able to. absolutely love this site.)

 

That is all.

 

Scott

[LouMerica]

^^Welcome to America: Home of Lawyers and people without common sense.

 

Thoughts and Prayers to the Family.

 

About as much common sense as thinking your doing a favor to a family you dont know by saying "thoughts and prayers."

 

America isn't the only home of a lack of common sense, that's for sure.

[beatle11]

I say just slap on some Millennium Force seatbelts and call it a day.

 

I'd be shocked if seatbelts were not added at this point.

 

I don't really know how the ride operates, but from what I've read it sounds like there's no way the train would have been dispatched if the woman didn't have a green light. So the way I see it, whether the restraint popped open, or she just slipped out from under it, I wouldn't put the woman, or the operators at fault for this at all. It would be either a mechanical failure or just a flaw in the system. In comparison, the Ride of Steel accident a couple years ago is almost definitely a case of operator/rider error. Of course we'll have to wait and see what the investigation turns up as well. Unfortunately accident's happen, but hopefully everyone can learn from it and make things safer.

[StLCPfan]

^Exactly! The Tbar on Superman when the larger rider fell out was resting on his belly, not his lap. That is not a secure position for a LAP bar to be on a rider on a coaster with those kinds of changes in G forces. The Gerstlauer green light system prevents that from happening. Something else happened here.

 

Just as riders whose belt doesn't fasten on B&M rides, she would have NOT been allowed to ride if she had been too big for the restraint.