neil009 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 It seems as though when people begin critiquing the layout of a ride, particularly when it's new, this is often followed by comments that it doesn't matter what enthusiasts think, the "general public" will love it, and they comprise most of a park's income, so their opinion matters more. But is that necessarily true? My argument is this. If you spend your life attending maybe three parks if you live in the Northeast and possibly fewer if you live in the Midwest, then of course you're going to love any roller coaster you come across, because you haven't ridden enough of them to establish a taste for them. But that doesn't mean what you're riding is a good ride, or we should applaud parks for building any roller coaster at all, even if what they build is kind of lame. There's still such a thing as amazing rides and simply ok ones. A good analogy for me would be cars. In your entire life you might own a grand total of seven cars. That doesn't make you qualified to say what is or is not a good car. You may love your car because it's reliable and gets good mileage, but that doesn't mean you couldn't have gotten a better car for the same amount of money. People read car reviews because the people who write them drive lots and lots of cars, know a lot about them, and are qualified to discern which cars are great, and which are just ok. I've never heard anyone say "car manufacturers don't make a lot of money selling to car reviewers, therefor their opinions don't matter". Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Themonerd Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 As much as I want to yes, I have to say no. The GP will look at us oddly if we don't like a vekoma SLC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceBoarder Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 It seems as though when people begin critiquing the layout of a ride, particularly when it's new, this is often followed by comments that it doesn't matter what enthusiasts think, the "general public" will love it, and they comprise most of a park's income, so their opinion matters more. But is that necessarily true? My argument is this. If you spend your life attending maybe three parks if you live in the Northeast and possibly fewer if you live in the Midwest, then of course you're going to love any roller coaster you come across, because you haven't ridden enough of them to establish a taste for them. But that doesn't mean what you're riding is a good ride, or we should applaud parks for building any roller coaster at all, even if what they build is kind of lame. There's still such a thing as amazing rides and simply ok ones. A good analogy for me would be cars. In your entire life you might own a grand total of seven cars. That doesn't make you qualified to say what is or is not a good car. You may love your car because it's reliable and gets good mileage, but that doesn't mean you couldn't have gotten a better car for the same amount of money. People read car reviews because the people who write them drive lots and lots of cars, know a lot about them, and are qualified to discern which cars are great, and which are just ok. I've never heard anyone say "car manufacturers don't make a lot of money selling to car reviewers, therefor their opinions don't matter". Any thoughts? To use your car analogy: Say an owner of a Bentley calls a Ford Focus garbage? Sure the Focus doesn't have wood inlays and seats that massage your butt while you drive, but 98% of people don't care about that stuff in a car... Does that mean that Ford should just stop producing the Focus because the Bentley crowd doesn't like them? Same thing with enthusiasts and parks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbalvey Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 To further the original question.... Does ANYONE'S options matter? No. Personally, I could give two shits what someone else thinks about something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coasterbill Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Do enthusiast opinions matter? No. And thank god for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n1ch0las Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 (edited) I think you're missing a pretty big part of your question. To whom do enthusiast opinions matter? I bet an enthusiast opinion would matter to a member of GP who wants to know more about rides around the world. That's why shows on the Travel channel pop up each summer, people are interested to see what else is out there. Remember that most people still don't live 50 miles from their hometown. To a park? Heck no. They like Golden Tickets and all for marketing purposes, but they don't need our approval when they are opening up their huge new ride. We compare new rides against the 100s or 1000s that we've ridden in our lifetimes, when all a park needs to accomplish is debut something more exciting than anything else within 2-3 hours drive. The nuances that enthusiasts focus on are annoying and mean nothing to 99% of people riding a coaster. A perfect example of this is Voyage's trim brake fiasco last year. Adding those trims probably made the ride more enjoyable for the majority of riders, but the amount of backlash experienced at Holiwood Nights was ridiculous. The park puts on an awesome event, and all anyone can talk about is a trim brake. edit: fixed spelling so people could trust my very important opinions more Edited January 3, 2016 by n1ch0las Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfc Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 ^Ahem! That's "brake," not "break." I remember when movie critics used to be important; now, no one really cares what they think, mainly because there are so many online outlets for people to share their opinions. Enthusiast opinions matter to other enthusiasts, not to the vast majority of people who visit theme parks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbalvey Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 ^Ahem! That's "brake," not "break." I don't trust any enthusiasts opinions when they don't even know how to spell what they are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Themonerd Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 ^Ahem! That's "brake," not "break." I don't trust any enthusiasts opinions when they don't even know how to spell what they are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithPlus1 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Any news on that boat at CP? #boatlivesmatter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil009 Posted January 3, 2016 Author Share Posted January 3, 2016 During the creation of the Voyage, enthusiasts were consulted, and their opinions on what makes a ride great effected what the layout turned into. I know this isn't a common occurance, but we can be pretty sure the people designing roller coasters, people like Alan Schilke, have had their share of interactions with coaster fans of all varieties, and their designs have probably been influenced as a result. Especially in the case of RMC this seems apparent to me, but I bet this is true for other designers as well. Look at the negative reaction to Silver Bullet's first drop, and now ten years later look at Banshee's first drop, which is basically the polar opposite. Also, the corkscrew on Thunderbird versus any of the inversions on Gatekeeper. Who's to say the consensus in the coaster community wasn't a factor? Parks have no reason to care what enthusiasts think, particularly. But the people tasked with actually designing the rides, who want to deliver the very best product they can, certainly do. You have to admit it's at least a nice thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfc Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I think you're missing a pretty big part of your question. To whom do enthusiast opinions matter? I bet an enthusiast opinion would matter to a member of GP who wants to know more about rides around the world. That's why shows on the Travel channel pop up each summer, people are interested to see what else is out there. Remember that most people still don't live 50 miles from their hometown. To a park? Heck no. They like Golden Tickets and all for marketing purposes, but they don't need our approval when they are opening up their huge new ride. We compare new rides against the 100s or 1000s that we've ridden in our lifetimes, when all a park needs to accomplish is debut something more exciting than anything else within 2-3 hours drive. The nuances that enthusiasts focus on are annoying and mean nothing to 99% of people riding a coaster. A perfect example of this is Voyage's trim brake fiasco last year. Adding those trims probably made the ride more enjoyable for the majority of riders, but the amount of backlash experienced at Holiwood Nights was ridiculous. The park puts on an awesome event, and all anyone can talk about is a trim brake. edit: fixed spelling so people could trust my very important opinions more You're learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genx24 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I'm with Robb. The only enthusiast's opinion that matters to me is my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XII Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 If we're talking about to parks, no. The only opinion that matters to them is whichever opinion will bring in the revenue. As far as to other enthusiasts, it matters to some as they care what others think. Some like to hear other people's opinions so they can compare them to their own, and others simply don't care and only care about their own opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n1ch0las Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 ^It's easy to see on a lot of boards/groups that there are plenty of people who absolutely need their opinion vindicated by other enthusiasts agreeing with them. It's kind of like people vying for the title of "King of the Dorks" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithPlus1 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 (edited) ^It's easy to see on a lot of boards/groups that there are plenty of people who absolutely need their opinion vindicated by other enthusiasts agreeing with them. It's kind of like people vying for the title of "King of the Dorks" Best post of the week! You could also include those that constantly need to remind us that they are in the engineering industry, as if their opinion matters more! Who cares what your job is? Edited January 4, 2016 by FaithPlus1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoinItForTheFame Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Do enthusiast opinions matter? If enthusiasts opinions matter "that" much, B&M Would be out of business because according to 98% of enthusiast "All new B&M Coasters are boring, and forceless." And enthusiast would be pi$$ed if every park wasn't adding at 29,000 ft tall, 1,500 mph, 987 inversion, Intamin aquatrax. If anything I think the General Public is more accepting when a park adds any new attraction where as enthusiast tend to nit-pick every addition to every park. The GP is just happy to have a new ride to ride where as enthusiast get all bent out of shape thinking "I can't see why the park would waste money on that B&M coaster. It's clearly going to be forceless. I have no desire to ride that. They should have went with Intamin." Where as the GP thinks "OH YAY! A new coaster!! I can't wait to ride it!" Granted this isn't true for all of the GP or all enthusiast, but for the most part it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalJasonland Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I am guessing that their opinions matter but like rabid sports fans; they are not always impartial or non-biased. I am also guessing that like my former boss at work that they don't like it when the employees or enthusiasts bag on a project that they believe in or have already built or implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J. Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Yes, they do, but only a very small amount. Parks have to consider every demographic when thinking about what to put in next. Whether or not the park targets the "coaster junkie" demographic specifically when they actually develop an attraction is a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro1118 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 To parks, yes, they do. Enthusiasts buy the season passes, get dining plans, post on park FB pages as well as other forms of media, give parks free promotion through word of mouth, attend various special events hosted by the park, etc... Do our opinion's dictate whether our homepark will add an Intamin PnP wooden coaster over a B&M wing coaster? Absolutely not. But I do feel we are valued in the industry, and our fanboyism can be the difference in dictating smaller changes. And I do feel the difference in our opinion's versus the GP is greatly exaggerated. Generally speaking, I feel our favorites generally line up with what the "adult" GP feel as well. I do feel they have a greater tendency to gravitate to more comfortable, high capacity attractions (like most B&M's) compared to us enthusiasts, who may be more willing to bite the bullet for the biggest thrill, but I don't think the gap is that vast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarmor Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I personally feel yes, their opinions matter . . . as well as anyone who is going to the park. There is a reason lots of parks put our surveys and ask for feed back after you visit a park. To what degree it matters is debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comeagain? Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Enthusiasts opinion matters as a customer of the park, however a self-proclaimed title of enthusiast doesn't mean your opinion is more important to the park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithPlus1 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 ^Reminds me of Yelp Reviewers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericthewanderer Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Even though most of the revenue comes from the GPs paying full-price for every thing,I think enthusiast opinions do matter since they're the ones who buy season passes and make multiple visits to 2 or more parks every year.It's like a casino-they have to consider both the free-wheeling high roller and the cheap low rollers and try to appeal to everyone in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midgetman82 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Some parks take into account enthusiasts' input more than others. Holiday World has shown multiple examples of that in multiple ways. Does it mean their opinions matter? Not really, but it never hurts to acknowledge when someone points out reasonable issues that the park(s) may have overlooked and could address. Having said that, though, I would never ever recommend ANY park to rely solely on the enthusiast community's opinions to further their park. While they might prove to be a strong supporting leg for the park(s), they make up just a small fraction of the people that actually attend the park. The example earlier in this thread involving the Voyage trim brakes fiasco is a VERY good example, in my opinion. A perfect example of this is Voyage's trim brake fiasco last year. Adding those trims probably made the ride more enjoyable for the majority of riders, but the amount of backlash experienced at Holiwood Nights was ridiculous. The park puts on an awesome event, and all anyone can talk about is a trim brake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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