Indiana's Religious Freedom Act and Holiday World

[bert425]

The law has been amended and if I understand it correctly, explicitly protects the public from discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity.

 

it has not been yet. They are trying to agree on language, since Economic impact to IN is mounting.

 

as has been pointed out, TPR isn't a political website, and tho I DO think this discussion is important, as it affects businesses in Indiana, I guess we should try to keep it focused on the parks

 

but I really do hope they manage to put some fix in place, and quickly. As we'd love to visit Holiday World.

[Woodie Warrior]

Will seemed like an awesome guy. That post was surprisingly moving. He has left an amazing legacy, and anyone who's been to HW would agree.

[prozach626]

 

as has been pointed out, TPR isn't a political website, and tho I DO think this discussion is important, as it affects businesses in Indiana, I guess we should try to keep it focused on the parks

 

^This.

 

/endpoliticalargument

[HolidayWorldFTW]

Wow.... That recent Holiblog post and video left me speechless and in goose bumps. Will certainly did leave the legacy he wished and a whole lot more. He would be so incredibly proud of his girls for what they have done. I think we all knew they had incredibly large shoes to fill and boy oh boy are they filling them! I also completely see why he had groomed Matt for this. You could change his last name to Koch and you would never be the wiser. This park is in his blood as well.Wow... My eyes are still watery....I don't even know what else to say... Such a very special place run by very very special people. We need more of this I'm this world. So incredibly blessed to have grown up with this park right in my back yard ran by the most amazing people ever!

[JamesMC]

Yeah, hey everyone with the Indiana Bashing because of a mis-worded new law which is going to be re-written to sound much nicer and compatible with all the other states that have this law (we are number 19) .....we the people living here were not given a memo by the Gov to start discriminating effective immediately.....Really, C'mon, the same peeps you have dealt with here are still the same peeps you are gonna get when you see us again....it would be in no one's best interest to be otherwise. We have not gone wicked and weird since the last time you have been here....no one is wearing a "I can't W8 2 Discrimin8" shirt......our businesses are open as always and if you want to spend a dollar there, they are not going to shoo you away......don't confuse a stupidly misworded document with the peeps who live here. I got hugs for all people, however I do charge $1 for said hug. And that was WAY before our Gov. decided to grab the spotlight....go get mad about weird laws in Delaware like jaywalking and spitting or something...or your own community HOA which tells you which trees you can plant, which grass you can cut, and what the color of your shades need to be.

 

Nothing has changed here......(not saying that's a good thing)....but to have peeps post that they are NOT going to visit Holiday World.....you know, we have bigger issues out there in our country......my .02!

 

By the way, I did not vote for our current Governor, but the fact that he's in office doesn't make me want to exclude anyone........

 

Everything is cool in Indiana right now, if you don't like the PuppetHead in Indy, then "Dislike" him on your FaceBook page, but that has nothing to do with almost all of us who live here.....just saying.....we are all good and happy to have you here!

[Diamondbacker27]

I wouldn't let the bill stop you from visiting. I've yet to see a "Straights only" sign. I'd just avoid the bad places here.

[bert425]

I wouldn't let the bill stop you from visiting. I've yet to see a "Straights only" sign. I'd just avoid the bad places here.

 

the only way to get change is to make a stand.

 

if that means that the "good" folks in the State have to suffer economically so that change happens? I feel bad for them, but so be it.

 

I thought they had adjusted the law, but I've since been informed that discrimination can still happen in any city WITHOUT explicit LGBT anti-discrimination laws in place. So basically, he signed something that still doesn't fix the problem.

 

and so we won't be going to Indiana anytime soon.

[dippindotsguy8]

if that means that the "good" folks in the State have to suffer economically so that change happens? I feel bad for them, but so be it.

 

How far would you go with this? I don't mean to use a slippery slope argument, but really... I think it's a question we need to answer, as "bystanders don't matter" has been used to do horrible things in history. Believe me, I know that boycotting is powerful, but that's exactly why I think a more effective response would just be to mercilessly boycott any business that actually discriminates or publicly supports discrimination. It appears that most people in Indiana have a huge problem with this law, and it's probably safe to assume that it will get overturned as soon as people can be voted out, if not in the next few weeks/months.

 

I totally respect your choice to not go to Indiana, especially if you feel unsafe there, but I'm really not sure the situation requires that.

[HolidayWorldFTW]

if that means that the "good" folks in the State have to suffer economically so that change happens? I feel bad for them, but so be it.

 

 

I totally respect your choice to not go to Indiana, especially if you feel unsafe there, but I'm really not sure the situation requires that.

 

I'd have to agree. Boycotting Holiday World is not going to help in changing this law. All it does it hurts Holiday World. I LIVE in Indiana about 30 min away from the park and I can assure you there is no danger in traveling here. I myself didn't agree with the first go around of the bill but the version we have now is live able. If your reason for boycotting is because the LGBT isn't a "protected class" well that's never been the case here in Indiana and it didn't stop you from visiting before. I also almost bet you'll end up traveling to another state and theme park were they are also not a protected class. I also agree that the original bill really didn't speak for the majority of Hoosiers. It's rare to find anyone that thought it was necessary or worded correctly. Honestly it takes big corporations to help influence change and that's EXACTLY what happened here in Indiana. It wasn't people from out of state declaring a boycott on Indiana, it was big corporations stopping plans of expansion and saying they might move out of state completely. Holiday World is NOT a big corporation nor is it a type of business that can just pick up and move on a whim or just not expand. Holiday World didn't cause this law, Holiday World isn't preventing the LGBT community from becoming a protected class. What they ARE doing is offering an amazing declaration of their values since day one, offering the most amazing theme park value, offering the most amazing park with friendly and kind employees run by one of the most amazing families you will find ANYWHERE. No, boycotting HW will do nothing but hurt HW.

[JamesMC]

That! ^

[bert425]

if that means that the "good" folks in the State have to suffer economically so that change happens? I feel bad for them, but so be it.

 

How far would you go with this? I don't mean to use a slippery slope argument, but really... I think it's a question we need to answer, as "bystanders don't matter" has been used to do horrible things in history. Believe me, I know that boycotting is powerful, but that's exactly why I think a more effective response would just be to mercilessly boycott any business that actually discriminates or publicly supports discrimination. It appears that most people in Indiana have a huge problem with this law, and it's probably safe to assume that it will get overturned as soon as people can be voted out, if not in the next few weeks/months.

 

I totally respect your choice to not go to Indiana, especially if you feel unsafe there, but I'm really not sure the situation requires that.

 

I don't feel "unsafe" there at all, but I won't give money to a State that gives an "ok" legally to discriminate against me.

 

I absolutely disagree with what you call "bystanders don't matter" as that's not at all what a boycott is.

 

think of it this way (a famous quote from Martin Niemoller, a Protestant pastor, and critic of Hitler who spent 7 years in a Concentration camp):

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Socialist.

 

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

 

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Jew.

 

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

 

and yes, I go to this as a Jew, it's the first thing that comes to mind -- in other words, there ARE no "innocent bystanders" -- discrimination affects all even if you think it doesn't.

 

When Texas passes a similar law -- which the morons are rushing thru now, I'll stop spending money here as well (only on essentials, but will be vacationing and traveling out of State, despite Fiesta, SeaWorld, Schitterbahn, SFoT and many other great parks here). When Texas pushes this thru? My disposable income will be spent elsewhere.

[dippindotsguy8]

if that means that the "good" folks in the State have to suffer economically so that change happens? I feel bad for them, but so be it.

 

How far would you go with this? I don't mean to use a slippery slope argument, but really... I think it's a question we need to answer, as "bystanders don't matter" has been used to do horrible things in history. Believe me, I know that boycotting is powerful, but that's exactly why I think a more effective response would just be to mercilessly boycott any business that actually discriminates or publicly supports discrimination. It appears that most people in Indiana have a huge problem with this law, and it's probably safe to assume that it will get overturned as soon as people can be voted out, if not in the next few weeks/months.

 

I totally respect your choice to not go to Indiana, especially if you feel unsafe there, but I'm really not sure the situation requires that.

 

I don't feel "unsafe" there at all, but I won't give money to a State that gives an "ok" legally to discriminate against me.

 

I absolutely disagree with what you call "bystanders don't matter" as that's not at all what a boycott is.

 

think of it this way (a famous quote from Martin Niemoller, a Protestant pastor, and critic of Hitler who spent 7 years in a Concentration camp):

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Socialist.

 

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

 

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Jew.

 

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

 

and yes, I go to this as a Jew, it's the first thing that comes to mind -- in other words, there ARE no "innocent bystanders" -- discrimination affects all even if you think it doesn't.

 

When Texas passes a similar law -- which the morons are rushing thru now, I'll stop spending money here as well (only on essentials, but will be vacationing and traveling out of State, despite Fiesta, SeaWorld, Schitterbahn, SFoT and many other great parks here). When Texas pushes this thru? My disposable income will be spent elsewhere.

 

Well yes, discrimination affects all, but legality of it alone does not unless people take advantage of that, which it appears has not been an issue in Indiana, despite LGBT having never been a protected class there.

 

Will you be moving out of Texas? Or do you only expect that of everyone unfortunate enough to be living in Indiana right now?

[bert425]

Will you be moving out of Texas? Or do you only expect that of everyone unfortunate enough to be living in Indiana right now?

 

I've already provided an answer as to what I'll do when the Religious Conservatives push a similar law thru Texas.

 

and no where did I say anyone should move out of Indiana -- only that I won't be spending money there.

 

so please don't put (false) words in my mouth.

[ArgoZ]

It's interesting reading all this from an outsiders protective. You all live in the same country but are divided by States that have such extreme and different laws.

[dippindotsguy8]

Will you be moving out of Texas? Or do you only expect that of everyone unfortunate enough to be living in Indiana right now?

 

I've already provided an answer as to what I'll do when the Religious Conservatives push a similar law thru Texas.

 

and no where did I say anyone should move out of Indiana -- only that I won't be spending money there.

 

so please don't put (false) words in my mouth.

 

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to put words in my mouth, but what I'm saying is that you're willing to let all of these families in Indiana suffer economically that have nothing to do with passing this law (which appears to be 90% of hoosiers... not a small minority) Their only "crime", if you will, is living in the state of Indiana. Why is it fair for people to potentially slip into poverty because of something they didn't support is happening? In order to escape the fury of the rest of the country, people would be forced to move eventually. Are you willing to be in the same position when your state passes the law?

 

I'm not saying you asked people to move - I'm saying that it's a very possible implication of what you're calling for, and I want to know if you're willing to face the same consequences if it happens to you?

 

The only significant harm I see going on here (now that the law has largely been negated) is to the people in Indiana who have nothing to do with supporting this. But if your position is that they just have to deal with it, I guess I understand that, so long as you're willing to put up with the same scenario in Texas.

[Diamondbacker27]

Bert, you not spending your money here won't affect the state. If all LGBT members did? Yes, maybe. I've yet to see an anti-LGBT sign. One lady did put one out, Memories Pizza I believe. Look, she's in hiding and her business closed. So in some way, we are all protected. Or cared for.

[bert425]

Will you be moving out of Texas? Or do you only expect that of everyone unfortunate enough to be living in Indiana right now?

 

I've already provided an answer as to what I'll do when the Religious Conservatives push a similar law thru Texas.

 

and no where did I say anyone should move out of Indiana -- only that I won't be spending money there.

 

so please don't put (false) words in my mouth.

 

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to put words in my mouth, but what I'm saying is that you're willing to let all of these families in Indiana suffer economically that have nothing to do with passing this law (which appears to be 90% of hoosiers... not a small minority) Their only "crime", if you will, is living in the state of Indiana. Why is it fair for people to potentially slip into poverty because of something they didn't support is happening? In order to escape the fury of the rest of the country, people would be forced to move eventually. Are you willing to be in the same position when your state passes the law?

 

I'm not saying you asked people to move - I'm saying that it's a very possible implication of what you're calling for, and I want to know if you're willing to face the same consequences if it happens to you?

 

The only significant harm I see going on here (now that the law has largely been negated) is to the people in Indiana who have nothing to do with supporting this. But if your position is that they just have to deal with it, I guess I understand that, so long as you're willing to put up with the same scenario in Texas.

 

The people in Indiana voted for these Politicians who are pushing the agenda. They bear responsibility.

Those that DIDN'T vote, wasted a chance to counteract these politicians and bear responsibility.

 

(same is true of Texas, I didn't vote for any of these idiots in Congress here, but at least I voted. . it wasn't enough. However, I live here, and therefore must suffer the consequences of doing so until the State leaders catch up with human decency -- seriously, the Lt. Governor (arguably the MOST powerful person in Texas Government) is a super-religious zealot-nutbag, who looks to the Bible for guidance instead of the Constitution. And whom you'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE who isn't "afraid" of what he might do (his name is Dan Patrick). . .and yet? he won in the last election easily)

 

and it goes back to what you asked earlier.. you are attempting to tell me I'm a hypocrite without using those words.

(and yeah, it's a bit offensive, but whatever).

 

no, I'm not a hypocrite, I stand behind my words, and walk the talk. . if and when Texas passes similar, no disposable income will be spent in my Home State (no movies, Live Theatre, Theme Parks, etc.. are gonna be spent in Texas).

[bert425]

Bert, you not spending your money here won't affect the state. If all LGBT members did? Yes, maybe. I've yet to see an anti-LGBT sign. One lady did put one out, Memories Pizza I believe. Look, she's in hiding and her business closed. So in some way, we are all protected. Or cared for.

 

and the go-fund me page raised almost 1 Million Dollars in less than a week.

 

don't be fooled, there are TONS of bigots out there (many of whom can't afford $10 or $20 to throw away, and still gave to this pizza place in the name of 'religion').

 

I feel terrible to pull out the "age" card, so apologies, but really, you're young and idealistic (and that's wonderful).

 

but yes, my not spending money in IN will affect the State. Elections have Consequences, and so do Bills/Laws. . .what do you think got them to dial back on the IN law? Pressure of losing tourism dollars (many of whom have now said the fix was not enough).

 

the power of the pocketbook works as a way of Social disobedience.

[SharkTums]

I appreciate all of you being as civil as you can on this hot topic.

 

With our TPR Group I think you'll find overwhelming support that Indiana politics are a mess right now but we are "coaster people" and Holiday World has come out supporting the LGBT community. My suggestion would be if you're going to Holiday World this season to go ahead and go, but consider not spending the night or renting your car in Indiana. Hurt the state in other ways but support the businesses that aren't doing anything wrong.

[dippindotsguy8]

 

and it goes back to what you asked earlier.. you are attempting to tell me I'm a hypocrite without using those words.

(and yeah, it's a bit offensive, but whatever).

 

no, I'm not a hypocrite, I stand behind my words, and walk the talk. . if and when Texas passes similar, no disposable income will be spent in my Home State (no movies, Live Theatre, Theme Parks, etc.. are gonna be spent in Texas).

 

Again, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to call you a hypocrite -- I was just trying to make sure you aren't. Because I've never met you, I really have no idea what kind of person you are haha. Since I've seen large amounts of hypocrites on both sides of this issue lately, I wanted to make sure you'd stand behind what you say, which you will.

 

I may disagree with how you approach this, but I don't think you're a hypocrite.

 

I appreciate all of you being as civil as you can on this hot topic.

 

With our TPR Group I think you'll find overwhelming support that Indiana politics are a mess right now but we are "coaster people" and Holiday World has come out supporting the LGBT community. My suggestion would be if you're going to Holiday World this season to go ahead and go, but consider not spending the night or renting your car in Indiana. Hurt the state in other ways but support the businesses that aren't doing anything wrong.

 

This seems like a very reasonable, balanced view to me. I also get why some would want to take a less compromising stance, but this is kinda where I land on the issue.

[bert425]

I appreciate all of you being as civil as you can on this hot topic.

 

With our TPR Group I think you'll find overwhelming support that Indiana politics are a mess right now but we are "coaster people" and Holiday World has come out supporting the LGBT community. My suggestion would be if you're going to Holiday World this season to go ahead and go, but consider not spending the night or renting your car in Indiana. Hurt the state in other ways but support the businesses that aren't doing anything wrong.

 

that's a good suggestion, and a reasonable compromise

[bert425]

Again, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to call you a hypocrite -- I was just trying to make sure you aren't. Because I've never met you, I really have no idea what kind of person you are haha. Since I've seen large amounts of hypocrites on both sides of this issue lately, I wanted to make sure you'd stand behind what you say, which you will.

 

I may disagree with how you approach this, but I don't think you're a hypocrite.

 

no worries.

 

yeah, I'm pretty much who I am online, in real life.

 

I know that's somewhat of a rarity online . .but it's true. (and I do have some opinions that don't agree with the Liberal/Democratic slant.. i just happen to agree with most of it).

[Philrad71]

It's interesting reading all this from an outsiders protective. You all live in the same country but are divided by States that have such extreme and different laws.

 

 

I found it interesting being in Toronto last week (when this was all bubbling over) that one of the Ontario politicians said in a TV interview to just have Indiana-based companies that were outraged to bring all of their business to Ontario because they were very accepting of the LGBT community and would welcome any new business with open arms!

 

On another note, I found it cool that when I went back to work today, I found that my companies CEO was one of nine in Indiana that signed a petition to rewrite the RFRA and voiced their opinion on how it conflicted with their companies morale and diverse workplace interests. Apparently, he and some of the other CEO's had rallied against this before it even passed...it's nice to see when some of the big guns have our back!

[Diamondbacker27]

I was on a school trip yesterday, we passed a massage shop.

This massage shop had a heart on the door. The heart was rainbow colored and said "We serve everyone."

I'm not sure what the name of it was, but it was near the IU Bloomington campus. Not far from their Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender support house.

[Dar]

Does Indiana have a sales tax? If it does, every time you go somewhere in the state and pay money, you're indirectly supporting the government and their decision.

 

As much as it will suck for legitimate businesses, the only way to get through to governments is to make the cash go away.