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Why do Giga Coasters tend not to have other elements?


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Such as a loop, diving Loop, or even a Heartline Roll?

 

does it have something to do with the speed the trains are going that make the forces too dangerous to incorporate those aspects?

 

I've wondered this for a while, although I've only ridden one that would even qualify (?), Steel Force.

But I rarely see a giga that even has a 90degree track turn.

 

Watching Robb's "Fury" demo footage is what got me wondering again, since I thought a heartline would fit great in that track layout.

 

Anyone know why the Giga's just tend to go "up and down" and "bunny hops" with the occasional tunnel?

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Giga's tend to be close to the ground and not just hill after hill like most hypers. I think big forces would come into play due to the height and speed. As for Fury, a lot of people were disappointed that there were no big airtime hills, but people have to keep in mind a 300ft airtime hill is a lot of steel and a lot of money.

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I'm sure if a park asked for one of those elements in a giga coaster's design and could afford it, it could most definitely happen but typically parks don't look for inversions and such in giga coasters. Spacing the track elements out for big inversions would be more costly since everything is on a larger scale. I could see a heart line if anything being place on a giga coaster but I guess it's really up to the park buying the coaster whether or not they want one.

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My guess would be for appeal. Many people can ride the large airtime machines, but not the looping coaster sitting next to it. I've noticed over the years that the non-looping coasters tend to have longer lines than ones with inversions. Of course, we have seen the very large looping coasters out there, but few were successful.

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It's not a matter of possibility, but rather of style. I believe most manufactures, parks (and subconsciously the GP) as well, that a coaster focused on speed and airtime should not contains inversions. And vice versa, a coaster with many inversions should not feature (a lot of) airtime hills.

 

There are some exceptions to this. One that comes to my mind is Vortex at KI, where is some hyper-ish track style before the first set of inversions (but this could also be to shed speed because Arrow only built one-sized loops at that time). The other way around, Superman La Attraction de Acero in Parque Warner has a floater hill between the cobra roll and the corkscrews. I'm sure there are more examples.

 

Personally, I'd love to see a proper mega/hyper/giga coaster featuring one or two inversions. It shouldn't be too difficult for Intamin for example, as they are putting OTSR-style restrains on coasters that don't have inversions in the first place.

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It's not a matter of possibility, but rather of style. I believe most manufactures, parks (and subconsciously the GP) as well, that a coaster focused on speed and airtime should not contains inversions. And vice versa, a coaster with many inversions should not feature (a lot of) airtime hills.

 

There are some exceptions to this. One that comes to my mind is Vortex at KI, where is some hyper-ish track style before the first set of inversions (but this could also be to shed speed because Arrow only built one-sized loops at that time). The other way around, Superman La Attraction de Acero in Parque Warner has a floater hill between the cobra roll and the corkscrews. I'm sure there are more examples.

 

Personally, I'd love to see a proper mega/hyper/giga coaster featuring one or two inversions. It shouldn't be too difficult for Intamin for example, as they are putting OTSR-style restrains on coasters that don't have inversions in the first place.

Exactly my thoughts. Traditional hyper/mega coasters (non-launched, lap bars only) and Giga coasters are just generally seen as non-inverting coasters focused on speed and airtime. With the B&M Gigas, however, I would be very interested to see an inclined dive loop turnaround similar to GateKeeper. I think that would fit in very well and flow with the layouts we've seen. I wonder where the next B&M Giga will be though, assuming Fury 325 is a success, which I'm sure it will be.

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I don't know why it hasn't been done yet, but I would definitely like to see inversions on a hyper-sized coaster. In fact, I just designed a coaster in RCT3 that is a B&M Floorless and is 218 feet, featuring a 147-foot cobra roll, and 122-foot vertical loop, an 80-foot loop, and interlocking corkscrews, as well as many airtime hills.

 

One day my ideas will become a reality!

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I agree with an earlier poster that said the cost would come into play. In terms of physics, elements like vertical loops, half loops, cobra rolls etc; would require a lot of height on a 300ft coaster.

 

More height = more steel = more money

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I agree with an earlier poster that said the cost would come into play. In terms of physics, elements like vertical loops, half loops, cobra rolls etc; would require a lot of height on a 300ft coaster.

 

More height = more steel = more money

 

This implies that the loop will be one of the first elements. But you can place an inversion near the end of the ride, when the speed is much lower. And if you're still worried about costs, go for a barrel roll

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I agree with an earlier poster that said the cost would come into play. In terms of physics, elements like vertical loops, half loops, cobra rolls etc; would require a lot of height on a 300ft coaster.

 

More height = more steel = more money

 

This implies that the loop will be one of the first elements. But you can place an inversion near the end of the ride, when the speed is much lower. And if you're still worried about costs, go for a barrel roll

 

Not necessarily, take for instance a ride like Intimidator 305 which after 5,000 ft of track, still hits the brakes at a really high speed. It would take a significant amount of track in order to slow down enough to go through inversions that are low to the ground. Maybe you'd be able to add some low to the ground inversions towards the end of a ride the length of Millennium Force. But that ride is already 7,000 ft, how much more money would a park be willing to spend to add inversions to a ride that's already gigantic.

 

You could however have a MCBR (ala Goliath at SFMM) that brings the train traveling at like 50-60 mph to a screeching halt mid-way through the ride, killing all momentum. Seems pointless though..

 

All this is just hypothesizing on my part though, only manufacturers and park management knows why there haven't been any gigas with inversions.

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I agree with an earlier poster that said the cost would come into play. In terms of physics, elements like vertical loops, half loops, cobra rolls etc; would require a lot of height on a 300ft coaster.

 

More height = more steel = more money

 

This implies that the loop will be one of the first elements. But you can place an inversion near the end of the ride, when the speed is much lower. And if you're still worried about costs, go for a barrel roll

 

 

yeah.. Heartline would fit in perfect, I would think.

 

that's why I was wondering if there is a danger "reason" why it hasn't been done.

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Here are a few of my guesses:

 

1. Forces and shape of the element: If a park is putting a 250ft tall gigantic loop, the high positive G will be there for quite some time and long hang time could also cause discomfort. Sure there are solutions that can make the force reasonable but the shape of that element would be hideous.

 

2. Ridership: Most GP think inversions make a coaster scarier. The height of a Giga coaster already scares a lot of people away, there won't be many people left if there are inversions.

 

3. Maybe the parks don't need more inversions. CP, Nagashima Spaland, KD, CW and Carowinds all have coasters with inversions and some of them have too much of them. They are buying coasters that focus on airtime and speed so there probably weren't any need of inversions.

 

4. Manufacturers: Especially for Morgan, they haven't done any inverting coaster before, going higher than 300ft and designing a gigantic earthquake-safe structure is already too much for them IMO. As for B&M, they aren't exactly famous for stepping out of their comfort zone.

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You could however have a MCBR (ala Goliath at SFMM) that brings the train traveling at like 50-60 mph to a screeching halt mid-way through the ride, killing all momentum. Seems pointless though..

 

Come to think of it, are there MCBRs on the gigas? Or do they have them but just don't use them (unless for emergency)? If they don't, I would assume they couldn't run multiple trains simultaneously on the track?

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When I think of a giga-coaster (and many hypercoasters too) and how they represent each of their respective parks, I see a group of coasters that have a very broad appeal to a large segment of guests. There are a couple things that I have boiled down to that scare people the most about roller coasters; height and inversions. From most guests whom I have spoken to about height, they will not ride a coaster if it's 300 or only 100 feet, as they simply do not like heights. So they won't be riding giga-coasters or most any average-sized coasters for that matter. As for inversions, many people are afraid of them, and many people do not enjoy inversions because of the effects on their bodies whether it makes them sick or just not well. In addition, I have noticed that coasters with high inversion counts are typically not as popular with older age groups of riders.

 

So where is this taking me in this debate? Giga-coasters and hyper-coasters that do not feature inversions have the greatest amount of appeal for a park making them the signature coasters for their respective parks. It is very difficult to make people who fear heights okay with any major coaster, but you can build a signature ride that is fast, thrilling, and full of airtime that will appeal to a very broad section of guests including the fans of no inversions. It doesn't take an expert to observe who is in line for different kinds of coasters. In line for Millennium Force I will see people of all ages, but I go across the midway to the former Mantis and I see it's mostly younger guests. You can even apply this to Maverick seeing fewer older guests in line compared to MF. Millennium Force, being without inversions, smooth, comfortable, and thrilling is arguably the most popular ride at Cedar Point because a huge segment of guests will find enjoyment in what it has to offer.

 

Now of course there are exceptions like Intimidator-305 that have non-inverting layouts but have elements about them that go against what I just said because their forces, transitions, and intensity. However, I would argue that I-305 from a GP perspective is not as appealing as Millennium Force or even other non-inverting hyper/giga-coasters. Personally I love I-305, but I can see how it's not as broadly appealing because it's intensity can scare off many non-enthusiasts or older folks who can't handle the forces as well. For example, my mother will ride MF all day if she could, but one ride on I-305 would probably put her out from riding anything else for for the day besides the train and Ferris wheel.

 

Simply put, by avoiding inversions and sticking to hilly and smooth layouts, giga-coasters provide a thrilling ride that is massively popular to a broad segment of guests which makes them huge in terms of ROI for their respective parks.

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For example, my mother will ride MF all day if she could, but one ride on I-305 would probably put her out from riding anything else for for the day besides the train and Ferris wheel...Simply put, by avoiding inversions and sticking to hilly and smooth layouts, giga-coasters provide a thrilling ride that is massively popular to a broad segment of guests which makes them huge in terms of ROI for their respective parks.

 

To support your points, my mom is in her mid-sixties and this is all that's on her menu these days: Millennium Force, Phantom's Revenge & Jack Rabbit (KW), Diamondback, Ride of Steel at DL, and RCT "transportation rides." Most woodies, anything that goes upside-down, all spinning/flat rides, and even old family-category coasters like Arrow mine trains are out of the question for her, but she has no problem paying full admission just to ride Millennium Force all day.

 

I personally love the occasional "Whoa, Nelly!" experiences that you find on something like Skyrush, but if I'm a park GM and tasked with sinking $30 mil into a new coaster, I probably won't be looking to over-serve hardcore fans with a looping giga while alienating a much larger percentage of guests.

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The answer is simple.

 

Intamin

Giga Coaster

The ultimate thrill

 

Featured in the Guinness-Book of Records, Intamin’s Giga Coasters belong to the family of ultra-high coasters with a first drop of over 90 m resulting in train speeds of up to 150 km/h. The layouts are characterized by steep hills and drops, high speed horizontal turns at or close to ground level, over-banked curves, a twisting winding ’up and down’ section, air-borne S-curves and hilly camel backs. As a result of the extremely impressive height and speed, the Giga Coasters do not need any overhead or upside down figure to create thrilling effects. Coaster technology applied has to be at its most advanced for the track fabrication procedures, train design, lift transportation or evacuation system as well as for the braking system. The lift drive is executed as a unique cable pulled system at a climbing angle of 45 degrees. The braking is done by a failsafe eddy-current braking system. Both systems represent proven technologies as they are in use in a multitude of other Intamin rides.

Link

 

 

B&M

Hyper Coaster

 

High speed, no inversion coasters specially designed to create air time.

A comfortable patented lapbar procures an incomparable feeling of freedom

Link

 

 

If a client would want a looping coaster, then they would go for a "looping coaster" model, not a giga coaster. However, if one would want inversions, I'm sure the supplying company be more than willing to at least look into it. But then that defeats the entire purpose of a giga-coaster, since it would be completely out of the characteristics that make it a giga-coaster.

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I'm sorry, but I've been reading the first page of this thread laughing.

 

Anyone bring up Steel Phantom at Kennywood?? Yeah, the Morgan Hyper wasn't always so good. In fact, pre-2001, people disliked the ride.

 

When your going 80+ mph, the G Forces can already be extreme. Imagine rising from the largest drop into a loop at 225 ft in the air. That's what Steel Phantom did, and it was painful.

 

Imagine Millenium Force with a loop after it's first overbank at roughly 87 MPH. That would be way too forceful and way to painful for the average rider.

 

Now, I know Arrow Dynamics made rough coasters, but even companies like B&m and Intamin would have issues with roughness if these went upside down too. The G-Forces and Speed make it intolerable.

 

Video:

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Imagine Millenium Force with a loop after it's first overbank at roughly 87 MPH. That would be way too forceful and way to painful for the average rider.

Not necessarily. If the loop was shaped properly, it would feel like a normal one only longer. Sure, it would have to be huge but I'm fairly certain the Gs aren't the reason manufacturers don't do looping gigas. I imagine that other reasons that have been mentioned here (like the range of people the coasters appeals to) are the important ones.

 

If a client would want a looping coaster, then they would go for a "looping coaster" model, not a giga coaster. However, if one would want inversions, I'm sure the supplying company be more than willing to at least look into it. But then that defeats the entire purpose of a giga-coaster, since it would be completely out of the characteristics that make it a giga-coaster.

According to those descriptions, yes. But what if a park said: "We want an inverted coaster which is 95 meters tall."? As far as I know, the definition of giga coaster is " a coaster which is more than 300 ft tall and less than 400". Just because, so far, no gigas have had inversions it doesn't mean that a giga can't go upside down otherwise it isn't one. For example, until now all (that I know of) standups have inversions but what's to stop someone from building a non-looping standup?

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Now, I know Arrow Dynamics made rough coasters, but even companies like B&m and Intamin would have issues with roughness if these went upside down too. The G-Forces and Speed make it intolerable.

 

Forces and speed would only be intolerable if they were designed to be intolerable, and I'd trust just about every major designer in 2014 to be able to work out any issues with forces. Steel Phantom suffered from wonky 1991 Arrow design, not from it happening to go both upside-down and 80+ mph at different parts of the ride.

 

^Does your mom realize that Phantom's Revenge has some of the most intense moments on any coaster in the US? lol

 

She rides in the front rows of the cars and props her legs up a bit, but she doesn't have to fight the ride at all. In the second rows of the cars, she knows that there's that hollow floor area so you can't support your back against the strong airtime, but the front rows deliver a very comfortable ride. A bit of well-designed airtime not only doesn't bother her, it's what she loves...it's any ride that nauseates her, beats her up, or coaxes her into fighting it in order to have fun isn't her cup of tea...and that stuff is unfortunately the bulk of the undercard at a lot of major parks.

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glad I started a thread that is generating discussion, although it's interesting that folks are focusing on the loop and dive loop aspect, and not heartline.

 

as a heartline roll (as i mentioned is what inspired me to start the thread) I still think would fit PERFECTLY in Fury.

 

so the only really good reason I've heard is that Customers sometimes don't like going upside-down.

 

but I think a good heartline, taken at high speed, would be awesome.

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