CoasterLab

[GigaG]

Hi everyone!

 

Thank you for all the comments. I’m excited to hear all of your opinions about this. I hope I can take a few minutes of your time to explain this project and myself.

 

To assure you that everything has carefully been taken care of with this collaboration with Golden horse, let me start off by saying that Golden Horse (or Jin Ma rides) has done everything legally, signed every official document and dealt with my lawyers and German business partner. They have the right to display my two designs as stated in the contract.

 

I'm well aware of their reputation and I do not agree with Golden Horse’s way of working at all. I had to really think twice about whether I wanted to design those two rides for them or not and they know that.

They told me that they want to take their business to Europe and, instead of copying other rides, want to come up with original designs of their own (I obviously can’t confirm if they were telling the truth). However, they informed me that they don’t have creative designers who are able to produce new rides for them, which is why they hired Coaster-Lab. That’s exactly what coaster-lab is for and it’s why I started this company in the first place.

 

They wanted me to design a coaster with 16 inversions that would fit inside a 157ft x 341ft space, and have the track be no longer than 3280ft (which is shorter than the Smiler). It also needed to be faster and higher than the Smiler… Therefore I had no room and track left to make airtime hills or anything that was not an inversion.

The 16-inversion coaster will be calculated in Germany and constructed by Golden Horse.

 

The second coaster they wanted, had to fit inside a very tight space. It had to have an Impulse coaster-type footprint. I had already designed a ride that would fit inside that footprint back in 2011, so I showed it to them and they were very enthusiastic about it.

 

This project with Golden Horse wasn’t my first. I have worked with Gerstlauer, Maurer Söhne and the Fungroup, who’ve contacted me the same way Golden Horse did. I was never an employee at any of these companies because I worked as Coaster-Lab (or as a freelancer if you will).

 

For me it’s kind of unfortunate that the first thing most of you see and read about my company is about this project I did for Golden Horse. I can’t show the other work I have done with the other companies because they’re either confidential, or still in production. So this is the first project that I can publicly talk about.

 

A few days ago I came across something so shocking to me, that I almost fell off my chair. Before I will explain what it was, there is something you need to know about me, because I feel like I have to clear the air a little.

I’ve dreamed of becoming a rollercoaster designer ever since I can remember and have been working towards this goal all my life. It’s still my greatest passion and hobby! For the past 5 years I’ve been attending every IAAPA and EAS show to introduce myself to the industry and meet the people involved.

So a few days ago, when I was reading some of the comments about this project, I found out that one person saw coaster-lab as a big fraud and considered everything I do a crime. This motivated me to discuss my intentions with you.

 

So to assure you all about my intentions, I would never betray anyone or steal anyone’s work in this industry. I would honestly never think of, or do anything to jeopardize my entire career and future, especially since everyone at IAAPA has always been super kind and supportive of me. (They even featured my company in the FunWorld magazine and invited me to be a speaker on the next Young professionals reception in Amsterdam this September). My entire portfolio is online and can be viewed on my website or on Facebook. If anyone else feels like one of my concepts is an exact copy of an existing ride please do tell me. I’m not now, nor will I ever be, a knock-off company, especially since I know most people at S&S, Premier Rides, Vekoma, Intamin, B&M, Gerstlauer, Maurer Söhne etc.

 

Lastly, I would like to tell you that there are a few exciting projects I’m working on at the moment, including one with Alan Schilke. I can’t wait to tell you about this project if everything goes according to plan.

 

I want to thank you for taking the time to read this and I would be glad if you gave me a chance. I hope I didn’t bore you to death with my story

 

Hopefully one day we’ll be riding one of my own designs and we can all have a beer and some good ERT!

 

Cheers!

 

Camiel

 

Sounds cool. Hopefully Golden Horse will improve their manufacturing for your design - it looks quite awesome. I also hope that someday you get the opportunity to go freely with your designs. Maybe you could design an airtime machine. It's nice that you're willing to connect with coaster enthusiast communities like TPR.

[gerstlaueringvar]

Hi everyone!

 

Thank you for all the comments. I’m excited to hear all of your opinions about this. I hope I can take a few minutes of your time to explain this project and myself.

 

To assure you that everything has carefully been taken care of with this collaboration with Golden horse, let me start off by saying that Golden Horse (or Jin Ma rides) has done everything legally, signed every official document and dealt with my lawyers and German business partner. They have the right to display my two designs as stated in the contract.

 

I'm well aware of their reputation and I do not agree with Golden Horse’s way of working at all. I had to really think twice about whether I wanted to design those two rides for them or not and they know that.

They told me that they want to take their business to Europe and, instead of copying other rides, want to come up with original designs of their own (I obviously can’t confirm if they were telling the truth). However, they informed me that they don’t have creative designers who are able to produce new rides for them, which is why they hired Coaster-Lab. That’s exactly what coaster-lab is for and it’s why I started this company in the first place.

 

They wanted me to design a coaster with 16 inversions that would fit inside a 157ft x 341ft space, and have the track be no longer than 3280ft (which is shorter than the Smiler). It also needed to be faster and higher than the Smiler… Therefore I had no room and track left to make airtime hills or anything that was not an inversion.

The 16-inversion coaster will be calculated in Germany and constructed by Golden Horse.

 

The second coaster they wanted, had to fit inside a very tight space. It had to have an Impulse coaster-type footprint. I had already designed a ride that would fit inside that footprint back in 2011, so I showed it to them and they were very enthusiastic about it.

 

This project with Golden Horse wasn’t my first. I have worked with Gerstlauer, Maurer Söhne and the Fungroup, who’ve contacted me the same way Golden Horse did. I was never an employee at any of these companies because I worked as Coaster-Lab (or as a freelancer if you will).

 

For me it’s kind of unfortunate that the first thing most of you see and read about my company is about this project I did for Golden Horse. I can’t show the other work I have done with the other companies because they’re either confidential, or still in production. So this is the first project that I can publicly talk about.

 

A few days ago I came across something so shocking to me, that I almost fell off my chair. Before I will explain what it was, there is something you need to know about me, because I feel like I have to clear the air a little.

I’ve dreamed of becoming a rollercoaster designer ever since I can remember and have been working towards this goal all my life. It’s still my greatest passion and hobby! For the past 5 years I’ve been attending every IAAPA and EAS show to introduce myself to the industry and meet the people involved.

So a few days ago, when I was reading some of the comments about this project, I found out that one person saw coaster-lab as a big fraud and considered everything I do a crime. This motivated me to discuss my intentions with you.

 

So to assure you all about my intentions, I would never betray anyone or steal anyone’s work in this industry. I would honestly never think of, or do anything to jeopardize my entire career and future, especially since everyone at IAAPA has always been super kind and supportive of me. (They even featured my company in the FunWorld magazine and invited me to be a speaker on the next Young professionals reception in Amsterdam this September). My entire portfolio is online and can be viewed on my website or on Facebook. If anyone else feels like one of my concepts is an exact copy of an existing ride please do tell me. I’m not now, nor will I ever be, a knock-off company, especially since I know most people at S&S, Premier Rides, Vekoma, Intamin, B&M, Gerstlauer, Maurer Söhne etc.

 

Lastly, I would like to tell you that there are a few exciting projects I’m working on at the moment, including one with Alan Schilke. I can’t wait to tell you about this project if everything goes according to plan.

 

I want to thank you for taking the time to read this and I would be glad if you gave me a chance. I hope I didn’t bore you to death with my story

 

Hopefully one day we’ll be riding one of my own designs and we can all have a beer and some good ERT!

 

Cheers!

 

Camiel

 

Hi, it's so nice that you can talk about this here, congratulations on your cooperation with all these companies!

 

Did Golden Horse come to you? Have you used those techniques that Gerstlauer, GCI, RMC use on the 16 Inversion coaster to add airtime to unexpected places? Is Golden Horse manufacturing the motor system, control system and the train? Most importantly, are you afraid that they will screw up your design? The layout is really awesome but Golden Horse's manufacturing skill is not even one of the best in China.

 

P.S. I apologize for the tone of my comments.

[rcjp]

It's nice that you're willing to connect with coaster enthusiast communities like TPR.

Yeah, that's true. The Alan Schilke project sounds interesting, whatever it might be.

[Joshuadrooney]

Hopefully one day we’ll be riding one of my own designs and we can all have a beer and some good ERT!

 

 

Count me firmly and unequivocally out.

[BDG]

I know most people at S&S, Premier Rides, Vekoma, Intamin, B&M, Gerstlauer, Maurer Söhne etc.

Not anymore.

[GigaG]

You honestly shouldn't mock this guy. As weird as these plans are, I think that the 16-looper looks very interesting, and the Skyloop-style design is good too (and simple enough that Golden Horse shouldn't mess it up if they can produce heartlined track.

[gerstlaueringvar]

Both the layouts looks amazing and nobody will complain about the 16 inversion coaster "cheating" because it doesn't have two lifts. Just seeing Golden Horse breaking Gerstlauer's record feels so... uncomfortable. I'm clearly biased but I am a Golden a Horse hater.

[GigaG]

Both the layouts looks amazing and nobody will complain about the 16 inversion coaster "cheating" because it doesn't have two lifts. Just seeing Golden Horse breaking Gerstlauer's record feels so... uncomfortable. I'm clearly biased but I am a Golden a Horse hater.

 

I'm sorta cheering them on because I've never experienced a knockoff.

[jynx242]

I can understand skepticism regarding Golden Horse -but sheesh, when did we become so hateful?

 

Good luck to you Camiel and I hope you keep us updated with your progress.

 

David

[RCT3Bross]

This Whole thing just mixed feelings, The lay-outs look amazing (even I want to ride them so bad) but it's Golden Horse, the ones that ripped of a Vekoma SLC as their first coaster (according to RCDB record). Their name just spread world wide to be bad.

I never would imagine them coming to Europe, I rather have them stuck in Asia. If I hear the announcement I need to think really hard if I'm going.

[GigaG]

I can understand skepticism regarding Golden Horse -but sheesh, when did we become so hateful?

 

Good luck to you Camiel and I hope you keep us updated with your progress.

 

David

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Intamax92]

I really do not understand why people are hating on Camiel so much. How many times do you get a chance to actually design a coaster which will actually be built. I guess most people are just jealous

 

This is not only a chance for Camiel, but also for Golden Horse. It's obvious that this isn't some kind of Knock-off Project, I guess GH wants to expand their limits and build original rides. If they can keep up to that, they might be able to change their reputation.

 

I even think this could become a smooth ride compared to The Smiler. Maybe GH can positively surprise us

[RCF]

I really do not understand why people are hating on Camiel so much. How many times do you get a chance to actually design a coaster which will actually be built. I guess most people are just jealous

 

This is not only a chance for Camiel, but also for Golden Horse. It's obvious that this isn't some kind of Knock-off Project, I guess GH wants to expand their limits and build original rides. If they can keep up to that, they might be able to change their reputation.

 

I even think this could become a smooth ride compared to The Smiler. Maybe GH can positively surprise us

I like the idea of seeing what happens before I jump to any conclusions because we look at Vekoma now as creating world-class coasters that are smooth.

 

In regards to Camiel choosing to work with Golden Horse, he said himself he was obviously skeptical of working with them too. He obviously knows more about GH as a business than we do, and knew his reputation is on the line more than any other project he has worked on. If he is going through with the project, then we should give him the respect that he deserves.

 

On a different note, does anyone else believe he helped with Premier to create the Superman: Ultimate Flight model? With his current eyeloop design, they seem very similar.

[Joshuadrooney]

On a different note, does anyone else believe he helped with Premier to create the Superman: Ultimate Flight model? With his current eyeloop design, they seem very similar.

 

No, they seem very similar because he involved with Golden Horse. In the same way "his" trains for this 16 inversion mess are very, very similar to Gerstlauer trains. And another one of "his" creations on his youtube page bears more than a passing resemblance to a KMG Afterburner.

 

I do not trust this Camiel person, not even slightly.

[Coaster Cow]

I really do not understand why people are hating on Camiel so much. How many times do you get a chance to actually design a coaster which will actually be built. I guess most people are just jealous

 

I don't know about jealousy, to be honest my skepticism is the lack of any information regarding his credentials on his website. I can see he is a brilliant modeler and I don't claim to be able to do what he is doing, but the guy is like 20 years old. Call me old fashioned, but I think that the responsibilities he is taking on are better handled by people with experience in the industry and years spent working under the guide of other professionals.

[Projektion]

On a different note, does anyone else believe he helped with Premier to create the Superman: Ultimate Flight model? With his current eyeloop design, they seem very similar.

 

No, they seem very similar because he involved with Golden Horse. In the same way "his" trains for this 16 inversion mess are very, very similar to Gerstlauer trains. And another one of "his" creations on his youtube page bears more than a passing resemblance to a KMG Afterburner.

 

I do not trust this Camiel person, not even slightly.

 

1. Just because the ride has a similar seating layout to an afterburner means nothing, they both offer 2 separate ride experiences.

2. There is a very good reason why those trains look similar, because they are the exact same, those train designs you've likely seen online were made by camiel.

[Joshuadrooney]

On a different note, does anyone else believe he helped with Premier to create the Superman: Ultimate Flight model? With his current eyeloop design, they seem very similar.

 

No, they seem very similar because he involved with Golden Horse. In the same way "his" trains for this 16 inversion mess are very, very similar to Gerstlauer trains. And another one of "his" creations on his youtube page bears more than a passing resemblance to a KMG Afterburner.

 

I do not trust this Camiel person, not even slightly.

 

1. Just because the ride has a similar seating layout to an afterburner means nothing, they both offer 2 separate ride experiences.

2. There is a very good reason why those trains look similar, because they are the exact same, those train designs you've likely seen online were made by camiel.

 

So you are saying that he had authorisation from KMG to use the design, and Gerstlauer lets him design their trains?

 

Right.

[KingRCT3]

Camiel isn't an engineer guys, he is a designer, a guy that gives ideas (my dream job!).

 

And that reminds me of the story of Alpina Blitz. Who designed this ride? Patrice Gélis, the owner of Nigloland (the design is heavily based on Piraten, YES, but because they liked it. It could have been 100% custom if they wanted). This guy grew up as a fairground entertainer, then build up his business with his park. But he never was an engineer, and all he has is imagination and talent. Like Camiel.

 

That said, Patrice Gélis designed the layout, but Stengel came after to calculate that layout. And from what I understand regarding Coaster-Lab (correct me if I'm wrong), Golden Horse was looking for fresh ideas and designs. Camiel replied and they had a deal. Camiel designs stuff (visual, concepts, feelings...), Golden Horse or/and their german partnerships calculate and build the rides.

[Intamax92]

Joshuadrooney, Please fix your quote. RCF said that stuff about Premier, not me.

 

And I am sure that camiel didn't work on the superman/sky scream layout from premier. They could both be based on those superloop rides which vekoma used to make. They are both creative and awesome and I am sure the ride experience will be very different.

 

The trains for the 16 inversion coaster are only similar to Gerstlauers infinity coaster (The Smiler) in one way: They have four rows of four seats.

[RCF]

On a different note, does anyone else believe he helped with Premier to create the Superman: Ultimate Flight model? With his current eyeloop design, they seem very similar.

 

No, they seem very similar because he involved with Golden Horse. In the same way "his" trains for this 16 inversion mess are very, very similar to Gerstlauer trains. And another one of "his" creations on his youtube page bears more than a passing resemblance to a KMG Afterburner.

 

I do not trust this Camiel person, not even slightly.

 

1. Just because the ride has a similar seating layout to an afterburner means nothing, they both offer 2 separate ride experiences.

2. There is a very good reason why those trains look similar, because they are the exact same, those train designs you've likely seen online were made by camiel.

 

So you are saying that he had authorisation from KMG to use the design, and Gerstlauer lets him design their trains?

 

Right.

He did have an internship at Gerstlauer, so during that time, his ideas could have been heard at Gerstaluer, hence the similarity, or they just look similar. You could even argue they look similar to S&S, Zierer, and even B&M.

His rides are unique to his own, and multiple manufacturers use similar designs all the time, so with the logic that Camiel is ripping off designs, is saying Mack is ripping off Intamin, and Zamperla should be sued by Gerstlauer. Their are only similarities not exact copies.

[Joshuadrooney]

I still don't buy any of it, and I still don't trust him as far as I could throw him. My gut tells me something, and it's not usually wrong.

[gerstlaueringvar]

That said, Patrice Gélis designed the layout, but Stengel came after to calculate that layout.

Mack did everything on their own for Alpina Blitz, Stengel didn't work with Mack on this project.

 

Coaster nowadays looks very similar, we can see things from different manufacturers that look similar, even the most original coaster shares something in common with other coasters. But Alpina Blitz is very disappointing. Mack should never do things like this even if the park asked them for it, this is the kind of thing that Golden Horse does.

[Superbatboy]

That said, Patrice Gélis designed the layout, but Stengel came after to calculate that layout.

But Alpina Blitz is very disappointing. Mack should never do things like this even if the park asked them for it, this is the kind of thing that Golden Horse does.

Why not though? Business is business, at the end of the day the manufacturers are there to sell product. Yes Alpina is an exact rip of the mega-lites but the park wanted it and saw a more economical way to build it.

 

And in the case of Golden Horse, they're no different than Premier, B&M, Mack, Chance, Zamperla, S&S, or any other manufacturer biting/stealing original ideas.

[gerstlaueringvar]

^So in this case, all the Chinese knock-off SLC's minus those Shenlin knock-offs are "business" because they did not copy Vekoma's design completely, and the Looping Toboggans are original as well.

 

Copy is copy, there's no excuse. I'm with Intamin on this. They put so much effort to pack a huge amount of fun into a tiny footprint and hire Stengel to calculate it but Mack just...took it.

[Superbatboy]

Copy is copy, there's no excuse. I'm with Intamin on this. They put so much effort to pack a huge amount of fun into a tiny footprint and hire Stengel to calculate it but Mack just...took it.

 

Well even Sandor Kernacs of Intamin said it's all about what the parks want. So if the parks want a clone of a ride that was designed by another manufacturer, why should the manufacturer the park is working with fore go building it and lose out on a multi-million dollar project?? And in the case of Intamin, you could even say they copied Anton Schwarzkopf if you really pay attention to modern intamin coasters there are a lot of similarities there. I don't think any of the modern day manufacturers of steel coasters are THAT original (save a few of Intamin's designs and B&M's inverted), you gotta go back to Arrow and Anton of the 70's for the true originality.