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The Knott's Berry Farm (KBF) Discussion Thread


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Knotts is not going to get closed down for this but honestly, I am glad this Video got out as otherwise they would have tried to cover it up, which certainly would not have helped at all

 

This way a detailed investigation will be launched so something like this will hopefully not happen again

 

I mean, the seat tilted at the end to the side, cables/debris flying all around. On this one the park really got lucky as a lot and I mean A LOT worse could have happend

 

A detailed investigation would have happened no matter what the outcome of this accident was or whether or not video was released. Do you think the park or manufacturer would really just shrug their shoulders and continue business as usual and hope it doesn't happen again?

 

We wouldn't see the results of the investigation if it didn't make the news. Now media outlets will do all the hard work for us and/or KBF/DOSH will come out with a statement when the investigation is complete. Usually if you wanted to see DOSH ride reports, I believe you would have to go to a DOSH office, pay a fee, fill out an application to get the report, then wait for them to get back to you. Has ANYONE actually bothered to do that unless the accident made the news?

 

That's true, we wouldn't have had a good idea of what happens with the investigation without the media and this video. But I'm mostly thinking those steps would have still taken place, we just wouldn't have known about it as much, if at all. Basically I'm not sure this video or the coverage it has received would have drastically changed Knott's/Intamin/California's reaction in doing an investigation and fixing the problem. I do agree though that thanks to this video and the news we will have a better of what happens following the incident.

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Here's some random night shots from Taste of Merry Farm.   Camp Snoopy looked the best at night, imo.  I guess I like the lights up the trees thing the best.      The Bear-Y Tales

The rumor was they also wanted the county to be in the "yellow category"  OC is still far away. Source for below: https://covid19.ca.gov/safer-economy/

Rumor is there are some high up California government peeps out in Florida, checking out the parks, and putting something together for your terrible governor who hates parks!

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I am actually really surprised we haven't seen of a ton of on the scene camera phone videos and pictures all over the net.

 

But they really need a better setup for the launch system. It never made the most sense to me. Nothing wrong with being extreme, new, or different but sometimes it seems like safety & logic does take a back seat with progress.

 

Cables will always snap and be 100% unpredictable, everyone knows that. This was a bad design were safety should have been thought about better.

 

Cable should be under the track surface in a square channel or something with a lifter arm to the cart.

 

Absolute min they should have a windshield on these trains. What caused it or not does not change what is preventable injury and or damage.

 

Just my thought.. I will still ride TTD.

Just not in the front.

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But we don't deserve to know anything, really. If there was no video, no news report, there STILL would have been an investigation and then what... all goes on as normal. While I will say I feel bad for the boy and his father and hope they will be o.k., I will also say that it would not surprise me in the least if they filed a suit.

 

Why don't we deserve to know anything? That's the attitude that leads to careless maintenance practices, and the reason California now as AB850 on the books. I'm glad there is now a lot more accountability, rather than simply trusting that the park took care of it.

 

Remember when Disney cleaned up the scene of the death on the Columbia before allowing investigators to come in? Stuff like that was commonplace before laws were actually on the books. Parks obviously weren't doing anything intentionally unsafe, but I think it is fair to say that before there was regulation...a lot more liberties were taken with operations and maintenance.

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I don't understand why everyone thinks these people deserve monetary compensation from a lawsuit. They weren't actually injured were they? If they were injured, then sure.

 

But compensating the "victims" for getting a nice scare on a roller coaster? Isn't that the purpose of the ride in the first place?

 

It's called punitive damages. This accident could've been much much worse if debris had hit their eyes or the cable took a slightly different path. By punishing the park and manufacturer monetarily, you provide a financial incentive for them to make sure accidents like this don't happen again.

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^That's a horrible precedent to set. Now the sleazy lawyers get paid even when bad things DON'T happen.

 

If the legal environment gets bad enough in the US to where ride vendors have to pay out even when nobody is hurt, you might see Intamin do a few things:

 

1) Only sell over-restrained coasters with minimal forces. Notice how the only Intamin hyper to have been built in the US for nearly 10 years features OTSRs?

 

2) Pack up and leave the country.

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I still don't think anything happened to the seat because it looks like the train runs over something on that side which causes the kid to be jolted in his seat which makes it APPEAR the entire seat moves. Yes the headrest moves a little, I would expect that, but not the whole seat. If the train runs over something stuff is gonna move and make it look worse than it is. Can't believe no one has said this, it really looks like it runs over something. What else would make it jump?

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^^Hmm...If Intamin is anything like the actual theme park industry ethics wise, I could see them being fine with selling out a few bucks to keep these issues off the radar, much like places such as amusement parks and department stores (*cough*Knott's*cough) (*ah-choo*Wal-Mart*ah-choo*) have no problem whatsoever paying THOUSANDS of dollars in fines and penalties for screwing over there employees to save MILLIONS in operating expenses.

 

^I've said that the train ran over something at least twice. And if you look at about 11 seconds into the video you can clearly see that the seat moves forward and stays in its new position, rather than just lunging forward and snapping back. As I've said at least twice, the cable wasn't the only thing damaged on the ride...

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I stand corrected and have to say that is really eerie. It looks like it was just the kids seat but why? Why would only his seat move and not the others? If you watch just that part of the video over and over you can just barely see the whole train jolt the moment his seat gets moved. Wow, that is scary.

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And you are assuming that the wheels were the point of contact... the train chassis could have dragged the cable and/or catch car into the brake fins, causing any number of things to happen... like a broken brake fin acting like a prybar underneath the vehicle.

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Yes, I freeze framed the video at two key moments to clear up that this kids seat in fact shifted...

Xcel2.jpg.d228ab202a26c06ba9235976529b8ff5.jpg

0:30 into the video, when the train slammed to a stop, notice the seats are no longer paralell

xcel1.jpg.da77008bbdedb95ec9ef4131891b01f9.jpg

0:02 in to the video, right before the train launches, notice the seats are paralell to each other...

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It has been reported that the cable entered the vehicle, so it is possible that the cable got caught on part of the seat, and--similar to the SFKK incident--ripped whatever it was holding loose when the cable tightened up on the way down.

 

While it is very possible the train ran over the cable or something else on the way down, it is also possible that the cable may have stopped the train if it had become attached to the train somehow.

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^I hadn't thought of that and it would explain a lot, the seat moving, the train suddenly stopping. Wow if that is the case, if the cable did enter the car, then those people are VERY LUCKY that what did happen was all that happened. That cable could have very easily removed a limb!

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^That's a horrible precedent to set. Now the sleazy lawyers get paid even when bad things DON'T happen.

 

If the legal environment gets bad enough in the US to where ride vendors have to pay out even when nobody is hurt, you might see Intamin do a few things:

 

1) Only sell over-restrained coasters with minimal forces. Notice how the only Intamin hyper to have been built in the US for nearly 10 years features OTSRs?

 

2) Pack up and leave the country.

 

First off lets not call an entire profession sleazy. Are there bad lawyers? Yes. Are all lawyers bad? No.

 

Now as far as punitive damages, I don't think that this is a situation where punitive damages would really come up. Unless it is discovered that Knott's has a large book of records showing that they knew that the cable had problems and was at the breaking point for the last few months, punitive damages are not likely to be awarded.

 

What Cedar Fair is likely to do here is pay a small amount (medical fees plus maybe a little bit more) of money, My guess is that it's going to be between $10,000-$20,000 total. Keep in mind that the plaintiffs don't have to agree to anything if they want they can try and push this all the way to trial.

 

Also we don't know that these people are going to sue! Maybe they're just so happy that they are safe and maybe they're not looking to make a quick buck. I think if I was hurt I would sue to recover medical fees (assuming that I was hurt enough to incur medical fees) but from the video I just don't think there is much of a case here. They did not appear to be that badly hurt. And besides not everybody likes to sue over every little thing, it's expensive to sue and for a lot of people much more stress then they want. If they do sue it'll be some nominal settlement simply because it's expensive and time consuming to go to court.

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On the other hand, the train does not suddenly stop at that point... it's hard to gauge velocity from this video, but the ride definitely gets rough at that point. that seems to support the "running over shit on the way back" theory.

 

we don't really have enough information to know for sure. If the broken end of the cable is caught up in the train and the other end is attached to the catchcar somewhere, then the roughness could be caused from whatever the train is dragging the catchcar through/over.

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^True, in either mine or your photo the train didn't stop at that moment, but if you freeze RIGHT when it stops, that wouldn't be an accurate measure of what happened, as the force could have jolted the seat forward but snapped back into place, whereas a stationary picture would show the seat SHIFTED. And I think that's what you and I did. (of course we're not experts, but obsevers) And it was those observations that seem like this seat somehow came undone.

 

Now with this in mind, the cable cutting this kids leg, the cable possibly dragging under/entering the train, all supports my original hypothesis that this train (red I believe it was) is screwed and will either need SEVERE work or maybe even replaced.

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I don't think it looks that bad at all. Sure it is a very serious matter, but as long as the park attended to the guests then there really isn't much more that could have been done. Things just happen.

 

It's just my luck that this happens one week before I go to Knotts. Too sound extremely selfish.

 

Just out of curiosity .. does anyone know if any of the ops were hurt? Cause the cable runs to the back of the station. Funny how only the guests are important.

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First off lets not call an entire profession sleazy. Are there bad lawyers? Yes. Are all lawyers bad? No.

 

That's not actually what I said. I think I implied that lawyers who take sleazy cases are sleazy. You know like the ones where nobody got hurt and you're just looking for a quick buck.

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Did anyone ever notice that the point at which the cable breaks is almost at the very end of the launch. The cable snaps and then they start to go up the top hat.

 

The train is only accelerated for 3/4 of the launch correct? So that way the catch car can slow down. So its interesting that the cable would snap at the point where acceleration is ceased or has already been cut off.

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With the cable entering the car it could have very easily got caught or wrapped around the kid's seat causing the seat to move. We already know he had injuries on his legs from the cable so it's quite possible the cable damaged the seat too.

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^ Watch the people behind them. They seem very calm. Even when the guy freaks out and starts yelling at the station. I think the man and his son were just scared and the adrenaline was making them over react a little.

 

And if the cable wrapped around the chair then it would have caught the guy behind him. It seems like it would be a structural change to the train. The guys chair behind him seems to move as well.

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The catch car doesn't really "hold" the train. It just pushes it. Like placing your hands on someones back when they are on a swing. There is an indent in the catch car and there is a rod on the train that slides into the indent. When the train reaches proper speed and the catch car slows down the train just goes on its merry way and the rod slides out. That is why the train slides backwards just a little before launch. That is the rod going into the slot.

 

The train either ran over the cable, hit the catch car. Or went threw some fins that may have been bent. All of which could have caused structural stress.

 

And to respond to my previous post the cable would have had to snap prior to proper velocity because the train never cleared the top hat. Unless the cable snapping killed some of the momentum.

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That makes more sense. As far as the cable breaking, I think it's possible the cable may have broken off the catch car which would have left the cable or debris possibly on the track along with the catch car. Would like to see pics of what is going on now as well as this bent brake fin that was mentioned. It is reasonable to assume the bent brake fin, if it was at the end toward the station, could have been what finally brought the train to a sudden stop.

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