The Knott's Berry Farm (KBF) Discussion Thread

[Jew]

I know to always take screamscape with a grain of salt, but he’s saying that the 2020 rumors are for a large coaster south of Ghostrider. Not sure where that would even be?? I just don’t see it. But we will see.....

 

They're making moves across the street for future park expansion. The Church of Reflections is moving to a Lutheran Church. That area and the picnic are next to it could be used to relocate the hotel, opening up a large area to the south of the park. Not by 2020, tho. They do have a considerable amount of space south of Ghostrider already where they house the haunt mazes. But, they've been pretty adamant about NOT destroying the aesthetic of Ghost Town. The abandoned a large coaster back there for that very reason a few years ago. I DO think the park will eventually expand southward. With Disney pricing, the HUGE tourism number OC gets (48 million a year!), Star Wars land coming all add up to Knott's having an unprecedented opportunity with the right investment to become one of the biggest players in the theme park industry...will Cedar Fair spend that money, tho?

 

They moved the church for more parking since they lost some with adding on to Soak City.

 

Don't see them spending massive amounts of money to demolish one hotel and build a new one.

 

They will never be one of the biggest players in the industry. The crowd taking vacations to Disneyland are likely not going to KBF. They are a locals park and will continue to grow that business.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Jew

[firebird81]

They lost zero parking form the Soak City expansion. I live two miles from the park. That expansion didn't move into the parking lot at all. The permit application for moving the Church of Reflections specifically stated the purpose was for future park expansion. What that means is anybody's guess. And as far as tourists not going to Knott's. That's not true, either. Magic Mountain, on the other hand, is very much a locals park. The point is moot anyway....we literally have 18 million locals in the LA metropolitan area. You don't think that means there's a lot of room for growth?

[Coastin' thru life]

Not a big player? Knotts was the only non Universal or Disney park in the top 10 most attended theme parks in 2017

[Coastin' thru life]

*North American theme parks

[clem2754]

I know to always take screamscape with a grain of salt, but he’s saying that the 2020 rumors are for a large coaster south of Ghostrider. Not sure where that would even be?? I just don’t see it. But we will see.....

 

They're making moves across the street for future park expansion. The Church of Reflections is moving to a Lutheran Church. That area and the picnic are next to it could be used to relocate the hotel, opening up a large area to the south of the park. Not by 2020, tho. They do have a considerable amount of space south of Ghostrider already where they house the haunt mazes. But, they've been pretty adamant about NOT destroying the aesthetic of Ghost Town. The abandoned a large coaster back there for that very reason a few years ago. I DO think the park will eventually expand southward. With Disney pricing, the HUGE tourism number OC gets (48 million a year!), Star Wars land coming all add up to Knott's having an unprecedented opportunity with the right investment to become one of the biggest players in the theme park industry...will Cedar Fair spend that money, tho?

 

They moved the church for more parking since they lost some with adding on to Soak City.

 

Don't see them spending massive amounts of money to demolish one hotel and build a new one.

 

They will never be one of the biggest players in the industry. The crowd taking vacations to Disneyland are likely not going to KBF. They are a locals park and will continue to grow that business.

 

Knott's is the top park in the Cedar Fair chain in terms of attendance. It beats Cedar Point, Kings Island, and Canada's Wonderland by a fair margin. It also beats all Six Flags parks and all parks not named Disney or universal. When Disney added Cars land a few years ago, Knott's attendance dipped. The California Adventure park and Knott's are in direction compotition for the same customer.

[thrillseeker4552]

They lost zero parking form the Soak City expansion. I live two miles from the park. That expansion didn't move into the parking lot at all.

 

It most certainly did.

[firebird81]

I stand corrected. His claim that the Church is being moved to replace those 30 or so spots, tho, is false. The permit specifically said for future park expansion, I'm guessing Soak City expansion, in all honesty, especially since Wild Rivers is coming back and will be twice as big as the old park.

[thrillseeker4552]

I don't really see Knott's expanding Soak City again (at least anything major) for quite a few years. The water park was essentially untouched between 2006 and 2017. Not saying they will go another 11 years, but this new expansion is doing very well for them as far as I can tell and was SO desperately needed that it will hold them over for several years.

 

Also, I don't think Wild Rivers coming back (which I am honestly skeptical about in the first place) will have an effect on Soak City.

[Jew]

I know to always take screamscape with a grain of salt, but he’s saying that the 2020 rumors are for a large coaster south of Ghostrider. Not sure where that would even be?? I just don’t see it. But we will see.....

 

They're making moves across the street for future park expansion. The Church of Reflections is moving to a Lutheran Church. That area and the picnic are next to it could be used to relocate the hotel, opening up a large area to the south of the park. Not by 2020, tho. They do have a considerable amount of space south of Ghostrider already where they house the haunt mazes. But, they've been pretty adamant about NOT destroying the aesthetic of Ghost Town. The abandoned a large coaster back there for that very reason a few years ago. I DO think the park will eventually expand southward. With Disney pricing, the HUGE tourism number OC gets (48 million a year!), Star Wars land coming all add up to Knott's having an unprecedented opportunity with the right investment to become one of the biggest players in the theme park industry...will Cedar Fair spend that money, tho?

 

They moved the church for more parking since they lost some with adding on to Soak City.

 

Don't see them spending massive amounts of money to demolish one hotel and build a new one.

 

They will never be one of the biggest players in the industry. The crowd taking vacations to Disneyland are likely not going to KBF. They are a locals park and will continue to grow that business.

 

Knott's is the top park in the Cedar Fair chain in terms of attendance. It beats Cedar Point, Kings Island, and Canada's Wonderland by a fair margin. It also beats all Six Flags parks and all parks not named Disney or universal. When Disney added Cars land a few years ago, Knott's attendance dipped. The California Adventure park and Knott's are in direction compotition for the same customer.

 

Yes, and that customer is locals. Disney can survive without them. Knotts has grown their business around them. People bought Disney passes/one day tickets instead of Knott’s. I suppose everyone’s definition of “major player” is different. Knotts has great attendance for what it is, but it’s not a true destination park to the point they’d demolish a perfectly functional hotel and build a comparable one. That would probably go down as the largest capital project in cedar fairs history. Don’t think there are many people planning a vacation that says “let’s go to knotts and add on Disney.” It’s the other way around for visitors.

 

Just my opinion that major industry player means more than really good locals park.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Jew

[clem2754]

I know to always take screamscape with a grain of salt, but he’s saying that the 2020 rumors are for a large coaster south of Ghostrider. Not sure where that would even be?? I just don’t see it. But we will see.....

 

They're making moves across the street for future park expansion. The Church of Reflections is moving to a Lutheran Church. That area and the picnic are next to it could be used to relocate the hotel, opening up a large area to the south of the park. Not by 2020, tho. They do have a considerable amount of space south of Ghostrider already where they house the haunt mazes. But, they've been pretty adamant about NOT destroying the aesthetic of Ghost Town. The abandoned a large coaster back there for that very reason a few years ago. I DO think the park will eventually expand southward. With Disney pricing, the HUGE tourism number OC gets (48 million a year!), Star Wars land coming all add up to Knott's having an unprecedented opportunity with the right investment to become one of the biggest players in the theme park industry...will Cedar Fair spend that money, tho?

 

They moved the church for more parking since they lost some with adding on to Soak City.

 

Don't see them spending massive amounts of money to demolish one hotel and build a new one.

 

They will never be one of the biggest players in the industry. The crowd taking vacations to Disneyland are likely not going to KBF. They are a locals park and will continue to grow that business.

 

Knott's is the top park in the Cedar Fair chain in terms of attendance. It beats Cedar Point, Kings Island, and Canada's Wonderland by a fair margin. It also beats all Six Flags parks and all parks not named Disney or universal. When Disney added Cars land a few years ago, Knott's attendance dipped. The California Adventure park and Knott's are in direction compotition for the same customer.

 

Yes, and that customer is locals. Disney can survive without them. Knotts has grown their business around them. People bought Disney passes/one day tickets instead of Knott’s. I suppose everyone’s definition of “major player” is different. Knotts has great attendance for what it is, but it’s not a true destination park to the point they’d demolish a perfectly functional hotel and build a comparable one. That would probably go down as the largest capital project in cedar fairs history. Don’t think there are many people planning a vacation that says “let’s go to knotts and add on Disney.” It’s the other way around for visitors.

 

Just my opinion that major industry player means more than really good locals park.

Since theme parks are a business, Knott's from an attendence stand point is #1 for Cedar Fair's P&L. Based on the attendance it is more than a locals park. When you are getting over 4 million visitors per year. They just got a new coaster this year and the rumor is another new coaster for 2020, so Cedar Fair is putting money into this park for a reason.

[Jew]

To be clear, I was only responding to the comment about the park demolishing/moving the hotel to become a “major player.” I am not in any way disputing knotts is a successful park. I am not disputing people on vacation visit the park. But we’ll have to agree to disagree on that making the park a “major player.”

 

They are a very successful regional park. They benefit from being in a densely populated region and have carved out their niche in that market. I’d put money on the fact the majority of those 4 million guests are local/passholders. I am one of them. And visit for haunt too. There’s nothing wrong with that as a business model. They have done a phenomenal job growing their business with competitive pricing and seasonal events. Don’t think Disney and universal are in any way shape or form worried about them impacting business though, so that’s why I dont consider them a “major player.”

[edgeboy]

To be clear, I was only responding to the comment about the park demolishing/moving the hotel to become a “major player.” I am not in any way disputing knotts is a successful park. I am not disputing people on vacation visit the park. But we’ll have to agree to disagree on that making the park a “major player.”

 

They are a very successful regional park. They benefit from being in a densely populated region and have carved out their niche in that market. I’d put money on the fact the majority of those 4 million guests are local/passholders. I am one of them. And visit for haunt too. There’s nothing wrong with that as a business model. They have done a phenomenal job growing their business with competitive pricing and seasonal events. Don’t think Disney and universal are in any way shape or form worried about them impacting business though, so that’s why I dont consider them a “major player.”

 

I'm curious to know, under your definition, what parks--aside from anything Disney and Universal--that do qualify as a "major player". Not trying to be snarky, honestly curious.

[KnottsBerryMountain]

Wipeout is back open. I’m glad it returned since the park lost so many flats within the past five years.

[Rusty Nail]

Wipeout is back open. I’m glad it returned since the park lost so many flats within the past five years.

 

Aside from Riptide what other flat ride has been removed from the park?

[KnottsBerryMountain]

Wipeout is back open. I’m glad it returned since the park lost so many flats within the past five years.

 

Aside from Riptide what other flat ride has been removed from the park?

 

Screamin Swing, Windseeker

[Rusty Nail]

Wipeout is back open. I’m glad it returned since the park lost so many flats within the past five years.

 

Aside from Riptide what other flat ride has been removed from the park?

 

Screamin Swing, Windseeker

 

Oh yeah, I never rode both those rides so thats why I'd forgotten about them.

[coasterlvr]

Wipeout is back open. I’m glad it returned since the park lost so many flats within the past five years.

 

Aside from Riptide what other flat ride has been removed from the park?

 

Screamin Swing, Windseeker

 

sol spin and they added the flyers. not sure i'd say they "lost so many flats"

 

maybe more like in the past 20 years, they've swapped out so many rides. LOL

[Jew]

To be clear, I was only responding to the comment about the park demolishing/moving the hotel to become a “major player.” I am not in any way disputing knotts is a successful park. I am not disputing people on vacation visit the park. But we’ll have to agree to disagree on that making the park a “major player.”

 

They are a very successful regional park. They benefit from being in a densely populated region and have carved out their niche in that market. I’d put money on the fact the majority of those 4 million guests are local/passholders. I am one of them. And visit for haunt too. There’s nothing wrong with that as a business model. They have done a phenomenal job growing their business with competitive pricing and seasonal events. Don’t think Disney and universal are in any way shape or form worried about them impacting business though, so that’s why I dont consider them a “major player.”

 

I'm curious to know, under your definition, what parks--aside from anything Disney and Universal--that do qualify as a "major player". Not trying to be snarky, honestly curious.

 

Disney and universal are THE major players that have brand recognition throughout the world and drive the industry. Knott's falls into what I consider the tier below that---strong regional force, where the attendance is largely made up of locals and neighboring areas (within 6 hour drive).

 

But back to the KBF conversation...Does screamin swing even count as a flat ride if it's an upcharge? The Flyers is a capacity gain compared to that....

[clem2754]

To be clear, I was only responding to the comment about the park demolishing/moving the hotel to become a “major player.” I am not in any way disputing knotts is a successful park. I am not disputing people on vacation visit the park. But we’ll have to agree to disagree on that making the park a “major player.”

 

They are a very successful regional park. They benefit from being in a densely populated region and have carved out their niche in that market. I’d put money on the fact the majority of those 4 million guests are local/passholders. I am one of them. And visit for haunt too. There’s nothing wrong with that as a business model. They have done a phenomenal job growing their business with competitive pricing and seasonal events. Don’t think Disney and universal are in any way shape or form worried about them impacting business though, so that’s why I dont consider them a “major player.”

 

I'm curious to know, under your definition, what parks--aside from anything Disney and Universal--that do qualify as a "major player". Not trying to be snarky, honestly curious.

 

Disney and universal are THE major players that have brand recognition throughout the world and drive the industry. Knott's falls into what I consider the tier below that---strong regional force, where the attendance is largely made up of locals and neighboring areas (within 6 hour drive).

 

But back to the KBF conversation...Does screamin swing even count as a flat ride if it's an upcharge? The Flyers is a capacity gain compared to that....

so is Cedar Point and Canada's Wonderland considered Regional Parks? Both have less people visiting these parks than Knott's but I am willing to bet they have quite a bit of traffic from around their respective countries. In Cedar Point's case possibly outside the country.

 

My take is this. Disney and Universal are different than Cedar Fair and Six Flags. Disney and Universal are more geared towards the family and flat rides. Cedar Fair and Six Flags are geared towards roller coasters and thrill seekers. Some parks like Busch Gardens and Dollywood toe the line in between. I think Knott's does that as well, but you can tell that Cedar Fair is putting money into this park with Hangtime and another 2020 coaster. These additions are there to make the consumer decide between Disney's California Adventure which is a different type of park than Disneyland. Disneyland is more family and California Great Adventure is more towards the middle. Knott's is a cheaper option, so some people will go to Disneyland and then the second or third day they will do Knott's possibly instead of California Great Adventure.

 

At the end of the day, Knott's is one of the key parks for Cedar Fair and it is nice to see them put these rides into this park.

[Jew]

Yes. They are the knotts of their regions. They are destinations for people who live within that region, but it’s safe to say only a very small percentage of their guests visit from outside their region. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. It’s a fantastic business if it works and a collosal failure if it doesn’t (looking at you six flags worlds of adventure).

 

Again, I am not in any way shape or form saying knotts is not a very successful park.

 

But let me repeat myself...my original comment was only in response to the person who posted suggesting they’d undertake a massive expansion to become a “major player.” There is no need for that. The rate at which they are growing now, building events like ghost town alive and the boysenberry festival into legitimate draws while still adding new rides and improving haunt is PERFECT for them. Undertaking a massive expansion including demolishing and rebuilding a hotel and expanding the park into the cleared space would easily be the largest capital outlay in cedar fairs history.

[DILinator]

Knott's is the top park in the Cedar Fair chain in terms of attendance. It beats Cedar Point, Kings Island, and Canada's Wonderland by a fair margin.

 

Not really a valid comparison though, as CP, KI, and CW are all no open year-round like Knott's. If CP and CW had the ability (ie. climate) to be open year-round, they would easily be the top two parks in the chain in terms of attendance.

 

 

Yes. They are the knotts of their regions. They are destinations for people who live within that region, but it’s safe to say only a very small percentage of their guests visit from outside their region.

 

This is true of CW, certainly, but CP draws attendance from all over the country, and even internationally. And they advertise as such as well. Most non-enthusiasts in the Midwest and East, probably are not aware of Knott's, while Cedar Point is known pretty much anywhere you go.

 

None of that is to discount anything being said about Knott's, just thought it was a point of clarification to be made...

[firebird81]

Couple of things here....Universal wasn't that big of a player, at east in SoCal, until just a few years ago. Their attendance numbers nearly doubled with the Harry Potter land opening. Halloween Horror Nights, like all halloween fests at parks, was influenced by the original haunt....Knott's Scary Farm. Disney is a long time behemoth in the theme park industry, yet most of the visitors to Disneyland are Californians...by far. They literally have 1 million annual passholders, and those folks use their passes. Jew, you are missing the point entirely. The point isn't Knott's current numbers. The point is the size of the market, nearly 20 million in the LA basin alone, 40 million in California, you 6 hour region ( which I would say is accurate) includes another 10 million in the Phoenix area, another million in Vegas, neither of which have theme parks. It's the potential for growth with the right investments that makes Knott's the most valuable park in the chain. If Cedar Fair commits to annually investing in Knott's and even CGA for the next 5 years.....they could literally grow their company by leaps and bounds, giving themselves plenty of cash to invest in the other parks. Any CEO that doesn't see Knott's Berry Farm as the most obvious cash cow for Cedar Fair, probably shouldn't be running Cedar Fair.

[edgeboy]

I think part of the issue is using the term "major player" to be equivalent to "destination resort"--as in, a park that people from all over the country and world would make a point to visit, and stay for a number of days (and not just coaster geek people--the general public). And if that is your definition, there's really only three "major players" in the country: WDW, Universal Orlando, and Disneyland. Therefore, by that definition, every other park in the country is a regional park.

 

To a degree, that is not really untrue. However, it doesn't mean that some regional parks are still very influential, successful, and can be extremely profitable. Also by that definition, there would have to be "major players" within the regional park circuit. And in that sense, Knott's is a major player. I'd also argue SFMM, CP, USH, and to a bit lesser extent, Sea World parks fall into the same category of being very influential, popular and (mostly) profitable--without necessarily being destination resorts.

[coasterlvr]

Universal and Disneyland in so cal has always pulled a huge amount of tourists, international, and north america. i've never noticed this at knott's or sfmm.

 

i agree, knott's is a very successful regional park, as is CP.

[CoasterInk]

If Cedar Fair commits to annually investing in Knott's and even CGA for the next 5 years.....they could literally grow their company by leaps and bounds, giving themselves plenty of cash to invest in the other parks. Any CEO that doesn't see Knott's Berry Farm as the most obvious cash cow for Cedar Fair, probably shouldn't be running Cedar Fair.

Curious what you mean by this... Cedar Fair already invests in Knott's yearly.

 

Also I'm pretty sure Knott's isn't the biggest cash cow. I would leave that to Kings Island, Carowinds, Cedar Point, or Canada's Wonderland (as someone pointed out above) considering they receive "More love" from Cedar Fair (ie, Big Rides, large area updates, both more frequent than Knott's). May be wrong though.