Let's be honest here... Big Bad Wolf wasn't THAT amazing...

[RoCo]

^Maybe he meant the first really exciting and less 'meh' installation. X-LR8 was pretty much 'meh' both directions, so I've heard.

 

No, he meant what he said: first successful. As in it didn't tear itself apart.

 

That is indeed what I meant, good sir, and I very much appreciate the correction! I had totally forgotten about XLR-8 (an easy ride to forget, amirite?!). Must agree that BBW was a FAR more entertaining ride than XLR-8.

 

I'd also add that even if BBW was not the very first Arrow suspended to have a successful career, it is still historically semi-significant. So I'll still have warm feelings towards Wolfie for that reason.

[redfoot12]

So correct me if I'm wrong but it feels like the consenus is that BBW was a fun ride with some neat elements to it. Then you have a few on either side who swear by it (best ride in the park) and others who didn't think it was that big of a deal.

Most people seem to be excited about what's in store for the replacement.

 

--Rob "had some great rides on BBW but is excited for 2012" Jowaisas

[robbalvey]

Hmm, BBW was almost always the longest line in the park when I went, yet had excellent capacity. In fact, in 2005-2006 (time period my friend was the ride's supervisor) it was the most popular coaster in the park

I do not think this information is true. I believe your "friend" has either given you incorrect information or possibly exaggerated information for the purpose to try to prove or disprove a point.

 

--Robb "Not buying your stats..." Alvey

[snowboard83]

Hmm, BBW was almost always the longest line in the park when I went, yet had excellent capacity. In fact, in 2005-2006 (time period my friend was the ride's supervisor) it was the most popular coaster in the park

I do not think this information is true. I believe your "friend" has either given you incorrect information or possibly exaggerated information for the purpose to try to prove or disprove a point.

 

--Robb "Not buying your stats..." Alvey

 

Negative. This was information given to me 5 years ago while he worked there, and not exaggerated on my end. I will try to get ridership stats, but this is hard information to come by at a Seaworld/Busch park. Hell, they won't even release park attendance figures.

[SeaWhippet]

^ I rode both rides...and Big Bad Wolf was WAY better than the Bat!

 

I'm with you, Shane. I was fortunate to have ridden the Bat on several different occasions. It was extremely thrilling but even back then I knew there was something ... not quite right with it. The Arrow/HUSS guys HAD to be aware of the Alpen-Flug debacle a few ears earlier, but that's another thread ...

 

Despite its flaws, I loved the Big Bad Wolf and I morn its loss. Like Arrow's quirky launched Shuttle Loops, the Suspended Coaster is a dying breed. I'm sure the GP and most coaster enthusiasts will love the hi-tech thriller that will eventually replace it but I'll always wish for one more chance to 'travel at the speed of fright'.

 

I've mentioned this here before and thought I would share it again. During an interview with Werner Stengel (re: his involvement with Alpen-Flug) a few years ago I asked him if he thought the Suspended Coaster concept could be resurrected. His response: "Absolutely." He went on to say that his firm had successfully refined the calculations necessary to create a new line of Suspendeds that would be thrilling and safe. I would LOVE to see that happen. One can dream.

 

Here's a parting shot of that VERY special moment on the BBW.

 

-Scott

Here's what we're missing ...

[redfoot12]

Hmm, BBW was almost always the longest line in the park when I went, yet had excellent capacity. In fact, in 2005-2006 (time period my friend was the ride's supervisor) it was the most popular coaster in the park

I do not think this information is true. I believe your "friend" has either given you incorrect information or possibly exaggerated information for the purpose to try to prove or disprove a point.

 

--Robb "Not buying your stats..." Alvey

 

Negative. This was information given to me 5 years ago while he worked there, and not exaggerated on my end. I will try to get ridership stats, but this is hard information to come by at a Seaworld/Busch park. Hell, they won't even release park attendance figures.

 

I agree that the lines may have been long but I don't think it was because it was the most popular ride in the park. Most times I went with (non-enthusiast) friends in 2005-06 we were getting back in line for re-rides on Apollo and Alpengeist, not BBW. The capacity of those B&M's are pretty good. BBW's not so much. We'd often forego the essential night ride because the line was too long.

[A.J.]

I never thought there was much to BBW. I will miss it, but if it has to go to make room for something else, so be it. What I don't like about this whole situation is the park's comments about the reason. It doesn't add up. If it was getting old and the supports were failing and would cost too much I could understand. But this whole Arrow told us 25 year service life and that's it is BS.

 

Well...

 

XLR-8 operated for 21 years.

Big Bad Wolf operated for 25 years.

 

Iron Dragon is on year 23.

Ninja is on year 22.

Vampire is on year 20.

Vortex is on year 19.

 

There is some credibility in the "25-year service life" after all. Arrow Dynamics is out of business, so there is no way to get standardized parts if a suspended coaster needs repaired, and recycling trains only works for so long unless the coaster is given the Vekoma treatment like Vampire was given.

 

I think...

 

Track stress is also a factor, because of the insane lateral force exerted on the track when the trains swing to either side. The passengers wouldn't necessarily feel the lateral force that the track does because the naturally-swinging car is trying to find the point where the lateral force is closest to zero for the passengers. The train frames and the track, however, would be under stress because the roll of the track doesn't match the "ideal" roll where the lateral force is zero. Big Bad Wolf had all sorts of back-to-back turns where the swinging trains sagged up to 15 degrees below the track's normal roll, and the famous river drop. Eagle Fortress had the same kinds of turns.

 

Iron Dragon doesn't have near as much stress on the track and train frames because most of the turns are banked at the ideal roll, and the trains don't swing as much.

 

I'm probably wrong, but I hope I'm at least on the right track.

Edited December 28, 2010 by A.J.

[RoCo]

...The Arrow/HUSS guys HAD to be aware of the Alpen-Flug debacle a few ears earlier, but that's another thread ...

 

Now that I'm thinking about it, I seem to recall that BBW actually used some of the footers that had been placed for the Schwarzkopf suspended? Is that accurate?

 

Also, EFFING MEGA-COOL that Stengel thought suspended coasters could still be made practical. Some day, maybe...

[Movieguy]

So correct me if I'm wrong but it feels like the consenus is that BBW was a fun ride with some neat elements to it. Then you have a few on either side who swear by it (best ride in the park) and others who didn't think it was that big of a deal.

Most people seem to be excited about what's in store for the replacement.

 

--Rob "had some great rides on BBW but is excited for 2012" Jowaisas

 

I'll only be excited for the replacement if it's a woodie. I think BGW should really consider contacting GCI on the subject, because I think the park has enough B&M rides.

[robbalvey]

Hmm, BBW was almost always the longest line in the park when I went, yet had excellent capacity. In fact, in 2005-2006 (time period my friend was the ride's supervisor) it was the most popular coaster in the park

I do not think this information is true. I believe your "friend" has either given you incorrect information or possibly exaggerated information for the purpose to try to prove or disprove a point.

 

--Robb "Not buying your stats..." Alvey

 

Negative. This was information given to me 5 years ago while he worked there, and not exaggerated on my end. I will try to get ridership stats, but this is hard information to come by at a Seaworld/Busch park. Hell, they won't even release park attendance figures.

Exactly. Which is why I don't buy it. Don't forget I used to work at a park. I know from my experience that not even a "ride supervisor" is privy to information like this.

 

I visited the park from 1995 to 2008... Never did I see BBW being a longer line than other coasters in the park.

 

Sorry, unless Busch released some official ridership stats, I don't buy your friends info.

[redfoot12]

^^Well, it's supposed to be a "multi-launch" coaster so that probably means no B&M.

Doubt we'll see a woodie anytime soon at a Busch park. People say that Busch wasn't too happy with Gwazi (a GCI). Who knows? I wouldn't mind an Intamin prefab though

[JJ728]

I do not think this information is true. I believe your "friend" has either given you incorrect information or possibly exaggerated information for the purpose to try to prove or disprove a point. --Robb "Not buying your stats..." Alvey

Well, 42.7% of statistics are made up on the spot...

[OKSIRYDOC]

^I am assuming you just made that up haha

[Movieguy]

^^Well, it's supposed to be a "multi-launch" coaster so that probably means no B&M.

Doubt we'll see a woodie anytime soon at a Busch park. People say that Busch wasn't too happy with Gwazi (a GCI). Who knows? I wouldn't mind an Intamin prefab though

 

Maybe, but Gwazi was, I think, a glaring exception to GCI's track record, which has done nothing but improve since Gwazi came along.

 

But, I see BGW has made their decision, so we'll be seeing yet ANOTHER launch coaster in the future. Seriously, I don't get the wide appeal of launch coasters these days (Storm Runner's the only one I've ridden, though). The ride lasts like 10 seconds, and it doesn't provide the sense of adventure that a good woodie, invert, or other non-launched coaster gives you, IMO.

 

But, if BGW wants to remain an all-steel park, that's their prerogative. I just don't see myself going down there again anytime soon.

[PayneTrain]

I do not think this information is true. I believe your "friend" has either given you incorrect information or possibly exaggerated information for the purpose to try to prove or disprove a point. --Robb "Not buying your stats..." Alvey

Well, 42.7% of statistics are made up on the spot...

 

I head it was 86%...

 

There is little question that the suspended could be revived if a major manufacturer wanted to. Intimidator's track style, with what I call the super-rail, is designed to support more weight on the track between supports, so why couldn't you transfer a gravitational force resistance to a lateral force resistance? I don't know if I would be too eager to ride an Intamin suspended roller coaster on thefirst run, because that's a kind of ride where the barriers probably need to be slowly deconstructed instead of obliterated.

 

Mack and Vekoma definitely have the ability to start these kind of projects as well, and I see the wing riders as a progression of the suspended coaster.

[snowboard83]

I do not think this information is true. I believe your "friend" has either given you incorrect information or possibly exaggerated information for the purpose to try to prove or disprove a point.

 

--Robb "Not buying your stats..." Alvey

 

Negative. This was information given to me 5 years ago while he worked there, and not exaggerated on my end. I will try to get ridership stats, but this is hard information to come by at a Seaworld/Busch park. Hell, they won't even release park attendance figures.

 

I agree that the lines may have been long but I don't think it was because it was the most popular ride in the park. Most times I went with (non-enthusiast) friends in 2005-06 we were getting back in line for re-rides on Apollo and Alpengeist, not BBW. The capacity of those B&M's are pretty good. BBW's not so much. We'd often forego the essential night ride because the line was too long.

 

28 riders per train. 3 trains on the Arrows. 30 riders per train, 3 trains on Griffon. 32 Riders per train, 3 trains Alpengeist. 36 riders per train, 3 trains Apollo. Clearly, BBW and LNM have some of the lower capacities in the park. HOWEVER, one thing I almost could always guarantee was that BBW would be operating all 3 trains. This is more than could be said about Alpengeist and LNM, as those two almost always have 2 trains instead of 3, yet more often than not had shorter lines. Apollo and Griffon are rarely anything but 3 train operations. So based on my experience (visiting the park 20+ times a year) is it really that out of the realm of possibility that BBW was the most popular in 05 and 06? Apollo is the only other that I see being BBW's challenger for attendance then. 07 on, you can probably give to Griffon.

 

BBW anyone could ride. Let's not forget the family focus of BGW. Families are probably the most common group at the park. Whole families with children over 42 inches would ride. Then re ride. Then ride some more. It was one ride that nearly everyone who rode rides at the park would ride from 5 to 99 years old. Next closest was the 48" LNM. Then ALL B&Ms are 52"+.

 

So clearly without any official data that will never come out of BGW, this being true will never be proven or dis-proven, and me and Robb would never get along again. So I propose the dropping of this argument. LOL. I just respectfully disagree...very much.

[alpengeist04]

28 riders per train. 3 trains on the Arrows. 30 riders per train, 3 trains on Griffon. 32 Riders per train, 3 trains Alpengeist. 36 riders per train, 3 trains Apollo. Clearly, BBW and LNM have some of the lower capacities in the park. HOWEVER, one thing I almost could always guarantee was that BBW would be operating all 3 trains. This is more than could be said about Alpengeist and LNM, as those two almost always have 2 trains instead of 3, yet more often than not had shorter lines. Apollo and Griffon are rarely anything but 3 train operations. So based on my experience (visiting the park 20+ times a year) is it really that out of the realm of possibility that BBW was the most popular in 05 and 06? Apollo is the only other that I see being BBW's challenger for attendance then. 07 on, you can probably give to Griffon.

 

I'm kind of surprised to hear this. I had a season pass from 2005-2007, probably visited 4-5 times each of those years, and not once did I see BBW operating 3 trains. Granted most of my visits were either in May, June, or September, but still I would think at least once out of about 15 or so visits I would see 3 trains. As for queue lines, BBW usually had the longest line, but also had the slowest dispatch when compared to the B&Ms.

[snowboard83]

28 riders per train. 3 trains on the Arrows. 30 riders per train, 3 trains on Griffon. 32 Riders per train, 3 trains Alpengeist. 36 riders per train, 3 trains Apollo. Clearly, BBW and LNM have some of the lower capacities in the park. HOWEVER, one thing I almost could always guarantee was that BBW would be operating all 3 trains. This is more than could be said about Alpengeist and LNM, as those two almost always have 2 trains instead of 3, yet more often than not had shorter lines. Apollo and Griffon are rarely anything but 3 train operations. So based on my experience (visiting the park 20+ times a year) is it really that out of the realm of possibility that BBW was the most popular in 05 and 06? Apollo is the only other that I see being BBW's challenger for attendance then. 07 on, you can probably give to Griffon.

 

I'm kind of surprised to hear this. I had a season pass from 2005-2007, probably visited 4-5 times each of those years, and not once did I see BBW operating 3 trains. Granted most of my visits were either in May, June, or September, but still I would think at least once out of about 15 or so visits I would see 3 trains. As for queue lines, BBW usually had the longest line, but also had the slowest dispatch when compared to the B&Ms.

 

One thing I will say is I personally almost always experienced 3 trains on wolf. I almost always saw wolf with a train on each lift and a train in the station, meaning it was dispatching quickly. Apollo and Griffon are quick dispatches, but I don't get Alpengeist. Alpengeist is SLOW and stacks.

[A.J.]

I'm kind of surprised to hear this. I had a season pass from 2005-2007, probably visited 4-5 times each of those years, and not once did I see BBW operating 3 trains. Granted most of my visits were either in May, June, or September, but still I would think at least once out of about 15 or so visits I would see 3 trains. As for queue lines, BBW usually had the longest line, but also had the slowest dispatch when compared to the B&Ms.

I'm going to go ahead and give this a +1. The most prominent reason I never got to ride Big Bad Wolf was because the line was so long and trains were dispatched so slowly. I've only ever gone to BGW four times in my life though.

[King]

I have an attachment to BBW as a child and adult. I rode it for the first time in 1988 when visiting family that lived in the area. While in college I worked at BGW for the ’00 and ’01 seasons as a ride op at BBW. Most of the maintenance issues were caused from age and the multiple moving parts on the trains. The trims on the second drop also had to be released to run empty trains or they would not make it back to the station. This made it a pain during low capacity days, but allowed us to get in a lot of rides. BGW wouldn’t get a return by spending the money to modify the trains and/or the layout.

 

Overall it was a great ride with unique elements, especially for the time, and still fun by today’s standards. BBW was slow in some places but that helped with the eerie feeling that a wolf was really back there lol. I’ve missed swinging through the village at night and diving over the Rhine since it’s been gone, but BGW is a great park and makes really good decisions about which rides stay and go. Hopefully, they’ll keep the wolf theme, terrain layout, and dive towards the Rhine in the replacement. I’m assuming it’ll be an Intamin steel, but I wouldn’t mind seeing a prefab woodie or an S&S like Powder Keg. I doubt they’ll let us down.

[snowboard83]

I'm kind of surprised to hear this. I had a season pass from 2005-2007, probably visited 4-5 times each of those years, and not once did I see BBW operating 3 trains. Granted most of my visits were either in May, June, or September, but still I would think at least once out of about 15 or so visits I would see 3 trains. As for queue lines, BBW usually had the longest line, but also had the slowest dispatch when compared to the B&Ms.

I'm going to go ahead and give this a +1. The most prominent reason I never got to ride Big Bad Wolf was because the line was so long and trains were dispatched so slowly. I've only ever gone to BGW four times in my life though.

 

Question is...did you wait in line to see the dispatch times, or assume. Lets not forget the line "pulsed" due to the station's layout. Fire marshal only let so many in at a time due to blocking of exits from crowds. It could be dispatching like crazy and the line wouldn't move because they cut the line off so that the exits were not blocked. Then they would let a bunch of people in. Then cut off the line.

[A.J.]

Question is...did you wait in line to see the dispatch times, or assume. Lets not forget the line "pulsed" due to the station's layout. Fire marshal only let so many in at a time due to blocking of exits from crowds. It could be dispatching like crazy and the line wouldn't move because they cut the line off so that the exits were not blocked. Then they would let a bunch of people in. Then cut off the line.

 

The last time I was there was in 2008. I saw the lengthy line so I went over to Festhaus to grab a quick snack, and went back out to BBW's line to see if anything had changed, and it had just got longer. So, I decided against riding it unaware of its fate the next year. I then walked back over to the garden in front of Festhaus and turned toward its lift to take a photo. A train had just gone over, so I held my camera up to catch the next one. My arms got tired holding it up. I don't remember exactly how long it was...

[downunder]

I didn't think it was amazing but it was certainly fun, Vortex at Canada's Wonderland at night is amazing (at least during ERT on the 2008 TPR BehEMOth tour).

 

So what did I like? Flying over the village was fun, though not intense. The drop down to the river was great and the brief period after that was the only time it really cranked up to Vortex like intensity. That second part of the ride uses the terrain brilliantly too.

 

Hopefully, the new coaster will use the terrain as well (or better than) as BBW did.

[snowboard83]

I didn't think it was amazing but it was certainly fun, Vortex at Canada's Wonderland at night is amazing (at least during ERT on the 2008 TPR BehEMOth tour).

 

So what did I like? Flying over the village was fun, though not intense. The drop down to the river was great and the brief period after that was the only time it really cranked up to Vortex like intensity. That second part of the ride uses the terrain brilliantly too.

 

Hopefully, the new coaster will use the terrain as well (or better than) as BBW did.

 

I liked vortex. To date, it is my 3rd favorite suspended after BBW and Ninja. But Vortex never gave a OMFG out of control feeling swing like BBW did. Even the village made you feel like you were in a story, not just on a ride. I think that Vortex and Flight Deck are fine, but so short with very controlled feeling swinging action. You think Vortex was good at night? You should've ridden BBW at night .

 

In other news, BGW has heard the uproar from BBW fans, and realize they need to build another suspended. They have canceled the multi launch coaster and hired S&S to build a clone of Iron Dragon.

[downunder]

^I did ride BBW at night, after park close, at least 20 times in a TPR ERT session in 2008.

 

That's I mentioned the time I did Vortex and that it was with TPR because that night it was amazing, the cars were swinging wildly once the train stopped at the end because it had been going so fast. I mentioned it was TPR ERT session because maybe they did something special that night, trust me, it was like someone had pressed the fast forward button. I rode BBW about a week later on the same TPR tour, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but my BBW rides didn't come close to my Vortex experience. The funny thing is I rode Vortex during the day and it was tame, if Behemoth wasn't late for ERT I wouldn't have bothered with Vortex ERT but what a pleasant surprise.

 

I can only base my opinions on my personal experiences. I've wondered if the way Vortex ran that night during ERT was an aberration. Maybe someone who was on that ERT session and has ridden Vortex at night during general public hours might be able to enlighten us - ***cough Jason cough***.