Geauga Lake Discussion Thread

[RandallDuell]

Theres a lot more here than whats been posted, robb, it's just more of the secrecy we've had since day one of the whole thing

Sorry. I don't buy it. Not for a Minnesota second. It's all an immature pipedream by people who are clueless to the industry. Keeping something like that as a "secret" is unprofessional and stupid. We have "industry people" responding to this thread saying this whole thing screams of stupid.

 

I'm going to listen to them over a couple of "coaster enthusiasts" who so far have not mentioned ANY engineering, maintenance, construction, carpentry, electrical, or any other trade knowledge involving theme park ride consturction that would be required to pull off such a project.

 

And until reputable people are announced attached to this project I will continue to scrutinize, criticize and call this whole thing as just a couple of enthusiasts who have no idea what they are doing, but happened to have some cash laying around.

 

--Robb "I'm calling it as I see it...you want me to call it any other way, change my visuals." Alvey

 

Why does this make you so angry? I'm not asking to simply stir the pot, I'm curious? I have zero affiliation, or feelings, about the old GL park and/or the Big Dipper. I have found it to be a fascinating story, and am honestly a bit confused as to why you're so eager to bash people making an effort to save something that's "special" to those in the area? Perhaps the two people involved are truly "clueless and dumb", and have no clue what they're doing and will ultimately regret trying to save an old rollercoaster - but, who cares? If people are so caught up in the emotions of it being saved, and are willing to donate time/money to (especially at this point) a questionable cause, let them do it.

 

I certainly agree that claiming to have secret plans or "more going on that you know" is not a great way to build faith and trust, though. I have no idea what that little forum is, but am surprised that they haven't beaten their drum on a bigger stage (is this the biggest rollercoaster forum?)

 

Anyway, it will surely be interesting to look back, say in 12 months, and see what happened. I can only imagine the logistics in trying to dismantle, move and store something like that...let alone the costs (especially ongoing, indoor, storage). Here's to hoping that this latest attempt ends up working out a bit more smoothly than the first.

 

And, Robb, I mean no disrespect I just find your energy about this issue to be odd.

[robbalvey]

^ It does not make me "angry" at all. I'm not mad about anything. I just simply do not buy it, nor do I support this effort based on what I've seen so far. And until some REAL announcement is made that had any sort of sense of reality to it, anyone that does support this is just being taken for a roller coaster ride. If you sense any emotion coming from me, it's frustration, not anger. Frustration with the people who are buying into this having nothing real to go on other than a basic statement that says "My buddy and I bought the Dipper...we don't a plan in place...give us money."

 

I think I've said it plenty of times in my previous posts. None of this seems legit to me. Are people really giving this group money? Why would you do that? If they presented a solid plan that I could buy into, maybe I'd understand it. These people are wasting their money and getting people's hopes up.

 

We supported the Conneaut Lake Blue Streak effort because that had a real plan in place, industry professionals behind it who approached us personally with what they were going to do, and work that was moving forward which legitimized the project. We support the Zippin Pippin project for the same reasons. We even support Flying Turns with how long it's taking because that is a project that has a vision behind and several big name industry veterans backing it.

 

This Big Dipper story has none of that.

 

They claim they have been negotiating this sale for weeks, yet they are "working on an address" for people to send in their donations. How do you not have something so simple, so easy sorted out if you've known about this for weeks? On their list of volunteer needs their first bullet points are a website designer and wanting T-Shirts done and their very last bullet point is for help to disassemble the ride. I'm sorry, but if this is real, you would think the very first thing on their mind is how they are going to remove the ride and store it, not make T-Shirts.

 

This is just really bad management and poor organization. And people want to give them money? Sorry, I can't support this.

 

Some of you forget that my "professional background" has been in project management for over 20 years developing multi-million dollar interactive media projects for companies like Disney, Warner Bros, MGM, Universal, Marvel, Mattel, etc, some of which have crossed over into theme parks many times in my career. If this person was the project manager on The Apprentice, based on this effort so far, you'd hear the words "You're Fired!"

 

--Robb "Not angry...just disappointed and frustrated that people are supporting such a poorly presented story." Alvey

Edited October 3, 2010 by robbalvey

[Jew]

They are doing it right!!! Please give them a chance. They have done nothing but good!! They have only owned it for 3 days now, give them a chance!!

 

I would beg to differ. If they were doing it right, the public announcement would have had all the details. I understand not talking about a potential sale, but there is no reason they shouldn't have been able to tell us their plan for the proper removal/storage of the ride.

 

I would love to give these guys a chance, but I know nothing about them or their plan. If the announcement was something like "We've bought the coaster and (insert company name with wooden roller coaster experience like GCI, PTC, Gravity Group, etc.) has graciously decided to help us with the relocation..." they would have A LOT more support.

[Meteornotes]

This has all the validty of one of those internet petitions. And we all know how well those work out.

 

Seriously, this is not going to happen. I've worked around coasters, and I really don't think most people understand how complicated they are. They are not just a bunch of boards nailed together that you can show up with some hammers and mom's minivan and just knock it down and move it elsewhere. They're complex pieces of machinery that would require people skilled in surveying, carpentry, mechanical work and many, many other technical skills to even have a chance to pull this off. So far, it's two people and a website that my cat could have put together in an afternoon. Oh yes, I know, there are all sorts of "sekret plans" and people involved. I used to work at a major game company and write their press releases. Do you know what would happen to me (or anyone at a serious company) if I put out a press release about a new project with no actual details and said "we have many secret plans that will be revealed soon"? I'd be cleaning out my desk five minutes later.

 

Real business does not run on "dreams". Yeah, sure, you dream or imagine a product or whatever, but then there's a ton of hard work done by people with required skills. Everyone thinks that working at a park or video game company or whatever is all fun and games and requires no skill at all. These people are wrong. And these people never listen to someone like Robb or Elissa or Joey (or me, but hell, I know no one ever listens to me!) about this, people that have combined DECADES of experience with all sorts of major projects. I know I'm talking to a lot of people that have their fingers in their ears and don't want to deal with reality, but I'm going to say it again: With the information we have now, there is NO WAY this is going to be successful. None.

 

But then, since I have years and years of experience in the entertainment industry, I really have no idea what I'm talking about, right?!?

 

dt

[robbalvey]

I love that we have now had multiple people who have professional experience working at Disney, Universal, Cedar Point, Knott's Berry Farm, Carowinds, Six Flags, Hersheypark, Alabama Adventure, and other industry companies all post saying this story so far has no legitimacy to it...yet no one wants to listen to these people with actual real industry experience!

 

Guys, I know on the surface it sounds great and all that someone has stepped up to "save the Dipper", but until there is something REAL presented, this plan is just as good as a bulldozer demolishing it.

 

When there is a real plan, with real action items, and real companies who have real money backing it, then maybe we'll change our tune, but until then, I really do encourage you all to listen to the people who know what they are talking about and have done this business professionally.

 

--Robb

Edited October 2, 2010 by robbalvey

[the ghost]

Robb's right. The entire thing seems shady. Two people who don't own or appear to know anything about a coaster are not going to buy one.

 

Two people bought a coaster who likely do not have the financial means to re-locate or operate the ride or really do anything with it. In my opinion the roller coaster is likely to not operate again, and it is probably two people who reacted out of emotions before they knew what they were doing!

[Jay20016]

I'm curious what state the Dipper truly is in after 3 years of in operation and no maintenance. And what these two plan to do to rectify it.

[RandallDuell]

Robb, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I get the "frustration" feeling you have - obviously you have dedicated a lot of your life, both professional and in leisure time, to this industry. Your thoughts make more sense to me now, reading them as being "frustrated" more than "angry".

 

I agree about the complexity probably being a bit larger than both the original and current buyer may have been bargaining for. I clicked over to that other forum, and it really does just sound like an Ohio resident and her Internet friend from New Zealand pooling together some bucks to buy a big wooden structure from a dude who over-valued it when he bought it at auction a few years ago. Hopefully they have some amazing behind the scenes support and gameplan in place, otherwise it sounds like they're going to spend a decent amount of cash trying to get this thing dismantled and into some building somewhere.

 

Anyway, appreciate the response again Robb.

[Devious]

*Sigh*

 

Look, we'll have all the details most likely by the 10th (I'm assuming the owners will be at oktoberfest to meet the group who helped bring this much attention to it in the first place)

 

We know this:

 

1. The people involved DO have the money to store, refurb, and relocate the ride, and have places in mind to move it

 

2. We do have people involved with expirience

 

3. The ENTIRE RIDE was surveyed to be rebuilt already, it was done in case it did end up demolished, a park could build a copy of it, using the trains

 

4. it really isnt a small job, they know this, a large part of the ride WILL have to be redone to rebuild it at it's new home

 

No offense to our own TPR Experts here, but they DO know the risks, nothing was finallized until, LITERALLY, yesterday afternoon (when jeff personally called and told me that the check had cleared and it had new owners)

 

Give them time to get going, at least? the website was tossed together something like 10 minutes after the deal closed, theres a more permanent one being made, i'd bet on it. and judging them purely on it is crass, even for us and our jumping-to-conclusions

 

That said, if you really want to know everything firsthand, come to the historical society's oktoberfest this coming weekend, i'm sure people will be more than happy to answer questions (As i said, i'll keep a log of everything for anyone who misses it)

 

we've been skeptical before, and been wrong, it could happen again.

[robbalvey]

^ Who's "Jeff?" I love how all these random people keep coming out of the woodwork in hearsay. And I love how all this information is going to come out via word of mouth at some beer festival instead of just posting a legitimate news story on their website. And why do you keep saying "we" as though you're one of the new owners as well? If you are part of the "we" that owns the ride, why not just present what is actually going on so we can all get behind the project? Or are you just part of the scam? Just sounds so sketchy.

 

No offense to you not wanting to listen to people who know what they are talking about but....erm....maybe you should listen to people who know what they are talking about...instead of some guy who said on Negative G that this whole project came to be a reality due to "magic." Yeah...that was actually posted by one of the supposed new owners. "Magic."

 

I'm not buying it until I see it, sorry. I've been working in this business since before you were even alive. In fact, my avatar picture was probably taken when you were just a sperm. I've seen it all before. When there is a real plan in place, I might change my tune. But until then, sorry, this all sounds like a scam to me.

 

Oh, you should tell "Jeff" while they are at it, there is a park in Myrtle Beach that needs a new owner. I can whip them up a website to take donations if they need it.

Edited October 2, 2010 by robbalvey

[Devious]

^ Who's "Jeff?" I love how all these random people keep coming out of the woodwork in hearsay. And I love how all this information is going to come out via word of mouth at some beer festival instead of just posting a legitimate news story on their website. And why do you keep saying "we" as though you're one of the new owners as well? If you are part of the "we" that owns the ride, why not just present what is actually going on so we can all get behind the project? Or are you just part of the scam? Just sounds so sketchy.

 

No offense to you not wanting to listen to people who know what they are talking about but....erm....maybe you should listen to people who know what they are talking about...instead of some guy who said on Negative G that this whole project came to be a reality due to "magic." Yeah...that was actually posted by one of the supposed new owners. "Magic."

 

I'm not buying it until I see it, sorry. I've been working in this business since before you were even alive. In fact, my avatar picture was probably taken when you were just a sperm. I've seen it all before. When there is a real plan in place, I might change my tune. But until then, sorry, this all sounds like a scam to me.

 

Oh, you should tell "Jeff" while they are at it, there is a park in Myrtle Beach that needs a new owner. I can whip them up a website to take donations if they need it.

 

"Jeff" is Jeff shimko, or ffeje, he was part of the group who organized, arranged, and cleared the sale, did business directly with tom woosnam and the new owners.

 

"We" Refers to those of us of GLT (Or, geauga lake today) who are personally helping out at the oktoberfest being held at the historical society to raise money to rebuild the hay baler barn for use as an exhibit

 

Look, by my name and nature (Devious, or Zerethon {Which means despair}) i'm skeptical as all hell too, i personally volunteered to help *JUST* so i can meet some of these people casually and firsthand (Most of them i merely saw at the townhall meeting last ear)

 

Yes, i know you've worked in the field, and i'm a youngling, but i'm also willing to see something like this through, and get my hands dirty to help out

 

Even if it fails, i can sleep easier knowing i at least *TRIED* to make a difference, rather than speculating and heresay without ever lifting a finger either way (No offense to you or anyone, robb)

[Synshine]

Lord, where was this enthusiasm when New York demolished the Thunderbolt?

[ginzo]

Even if it fails, i can sleep easier knowing i at least *TRIED* to make a difference, rather than speculating and heresay without ever lifting a finger either way

 

If nothing else, you'll at least get some nice firewood. It gets cold up there in the winter!

[mightbeawannabe]

This statement is a grand summarization of what Robb has said as of yet, taken directly from their site:

 

- Transportation assistance

(Pickup trucks, semi trucks, moving trucks .. anything that will haul wood!)

 

Now, I'm no expert by any means, but I am 100% certain they have no idea what they're doing, even if I don't now that much about coasters either. They're big, complex, expensive, and need TLC.

[beatle11]

If they present a concrete plan, i'd be more likely to support it. I'm definitely interested to see what they have in mind.

[Yamez]

*Sigh*

 

Look, we'll have all the details most likely by the 10th (I'm assuming the owners will be at oktoberfest to meet the group who helped bring this much attention to it in the first place)

 

We know this:

 

1. The people involved DO have the money to store, refurb, and relocate the ride, and have places in mind to move it

 

2. We do have people involved with experience

 

<...>

 

4. it really isnt a small job, they know this, a large part of the ride WILL have to be redone to rebuild it at it's new home

 

No offense to our own TPR Experts here, but they DO know the risks, nothing was finallized until, LITERALLY, yesterday afternoon (when jeff personally called and told me that the check had cleared and it had new owners)

 

Give them time to get going, at least? the website was tossed together something like 10 minutes after the deal closed, theres a more permanent one being made, i'd bet on it. and judging them purely on it is crass, even for us and our jumping-to-conclusions

 

I'm not an expert, nor will I pretend to be. However I just want to point out the following:

 

Point 1: If they're looking for volunteers to help dismantle and transport the ride they do NOT in fact have the money to do so themselves.

 

Point 2: I've yet to hear about any names anywhere that have any sort of experience.

 

Point 4: I'm not so sure they realize HOW big this really is. Its hard to look at any roller coaster and not see a large job, but I think they're going far beyond their means.

 

As for giving them time to get it going the point has been said over and over again. There shouldn't be any 'ramp up' time on something as big as this. They need to have a plan, and they need to know EXACTLY what they're doing and HOW they're doing it. If there was a more permanent website in the works why would they be asking for volunteers to help them out with that? It just doesn't make any sense. You're asking me and everyone else not to judge them yet, but they've already completed actions and asked for help. When you bring a project to a public front you should expect to be criticized, judged, and otherwise viewed in a negative or positive light.

 

No one is jumping to conclusions saying it WON'T happen. But the majority of us seem to think it has an extremely high chance of not happening. We're giving them benefit of the doubt, but not enough to give them money towards it until they prove us wrong.

[ernierocker]

I understand why the people that support this project are frustrated with the responses on this website. If you could get the support of a large site like TPR, then it would help build momentum for your project. The problem is everything about this just screams amateur. With the state of economy like is, you HAVE to present a reason for people to want to support your cause, because people just simply don't have the money to throw on every half-ass effort to preserve something.

 

With all the facts that we have, there is no reason for anyone on this site to not be skeptical. Especially those you have experience in the industry and has seen this happen countless times in the past. For those who are behind this project, just be patient. If information is released that shows that this project has an actually chance to carry forward, then I am sure you will see more support from this site. But, simply coming on here and saying I know this guy who knows a guy, just isn't going to help your cause.

[robbalvey]

Even if it fails, i can sleep easier knowing i at least *TRIED* to make a difference, rather than speculating and heresay without ever lifting a finger either way

Your backhanded insults will get you nowhere on this website. We absolutely supported the preservation efforts that actually had merit, a solid plan, and financial backers. If you'll sleep better at night because you've given money to something you believe in, great. But this attitude where you think you're better than someone else because you "lifted a finger" is exactly the WRONG attitude to have if you want your project to get support from other people.

 

Insults aren't going to get your project any donations.

 

--Robb

 

ps. Great post ernierocker, couldn't have said it better myself.

Edited October 3, 2010 by robbalvey

[Jay20016]

But, simply coming on here and saying I know this guy who knows a guy, just isn't going to help your cause.

 

You mean the Dip n Dots guy is not a good source of info?!

[robbalvey]

But, simply coming on here and saying I know this guy who knows a guy, just isn't going to help your cause.

 

You mean the Dip n Dots guy is not a good source of info?!

Only if he has a pickup truck!

[Skycoastin Steve]

If they want to pay me to show up with a hammer and help pull nails out, I'll gladly sign up!

[ernierocker]

 

You mean the Dip n Dots guy is not a good source of info?!

 

Hey, the Dip n Dots guy is the new WDW bus driver.

[Skramp]

How about everyone bring a gas can, we can throw a match and sing "Kumbaya" while having "Hands around the Big Dipper." I with everyone else, this seems like something thrown together with no plan in place. I will give them to the 10th, but with NE Ohio winters, it doesn't give them much time. And to say "anyone with a pickup truck....." sounds SO unprofessional.

 

It screams of amateurism at it's best. I wish them the best and would love to see it saved. But am I willing to donate time or money, no. Maybe next they can buy Son of Beast and move that also. My brother has a pick up truck and lives close, he could help with that one.

 

And for everyone getting angry, remember you are fighting with people with years and years of experience of knowledge in this industry, your comebacks are only making the effort look worse and worse.

[Wes]

Ahaahah Robb pointed me to this amazing thread...can't believe I didn't see this earlier. Wowwwwwww.

 

My favorite part of that beautiful website:

Harold Garmonsway: the founder of the project. Although not directly involved for legal and geographical reasons, Harold has a fair idea of what's going on and provides advice and suggestions as and when his spare time permits.

 

Legal reasons? Fair idea? Spare time permits? Ahahahahha.

[BarryH]

I have to ask: is the Big Dipper really worth saving? I rode it about 7 years ago and the only thing I remember about it was there were bees in the queue. I don't remember it as being spectacular or awesome. I don't remember a single thing about my ride other than I know I rode it! I'm not saying a roller coaster has to be 400 feet tall or have 10 inversions to be memorable or awesome. I'm sure people have fond memories of the Big Dipper. I just don't have feelings that this roller coaster should be saved.