Kings Dominion (KD) Discussion Thread

[ParkTrips]

No, if there is "Blame" to be laid in the fact that I305 is not quite up to the promised specs anymore, it is definitley Intamin's. If the technology was not there to make a ride with the requested specs, they just should have said no to the client. They have "Over-promised" before.

Saying no to a client is tough, which is why I think they can say "sure, PKD, we'll give you what you want, but if that doesn't work, we have a backup for you"

 

I'm not blaming anyone, I just think its funny when people get all mad at Intamin, and don't want to think that maybe Intamin delivered exactly what the park asked for - with eyes bigger than their stomach, so to say.. devil's advocate and such

[Calicoasters]

^Very!

For example, every time someone wears the Tye-dyed Dueling Dragons Shirt someone goes sterile!

 

Amazing! Someone at Knott's today was wearing a Tye-Dyed Dueling Dragons shirt!

[Mechanic]

^ OMG! I think I just went sterile!

[ajm1240]

No, if there is "Blame" to be laid in the fact that I305 is not quite up to the promised specs anymore, it is definitley Intamin's. If the technology was not there to make a ride with the requested specs, they just should have said no to the client. They have "Over-promised" before.

Saying no to a client is tough, which is why I think they can say "sure, PKD, we'll give you what you want, but if that doesn't work, we have a backup for you"

 

I'm not blaming anyone, I just think its funny when people get all mad at Intamin, and don't want to think that maybe Intamin delivered exactly what the park asked for - with eyes bigger than their stomach, so to say.. devil's advocate and such

Clients ask for more than is possible all the time. They get told "No" all the time. In all forms of businness. Intamin should know it makes THEM look bad in the industry when stuff like this happens. They know what will work. They have all the numbers and science and experience. If what you say is the case, then they are even more at fault, because they had to KNOW the ride was not maintainable at specs.

 

They have hurt their own chances of getting the contract the next time a big park wants an extreme ride. Not that they are hurting for clients I suppose, so maybe they just don't care.

[Hercules]

^ Were you in any of the meetings between Kings Dominion and Intamin?

[Capitalize]

^Very!

For example, every time someone wears the Tye-dyed Dueling Dragons Shirt someone goes sterile!

 

Amazing! Someone at Knott's today was wearing a Tye-Dyed Dueling Dragons shirt!

Ugh, I remember buying that shirt and wearing it fairly regularly for a bit when I was in middle school... Suffice it to say I was not exactly the hippest kid in middle school...

[BeemerBoy]

Clients ask for more than is possible all the time. They get told "No" all the time. In all forms of businness. Intamin should know it makes THEM look bad in the industry when stuff like this happens. They know what will work. They have all the numbers and science and experience. If what you say is the case, then they are even more at fault, because they had to KNOW the ride was not maintainable at specs.

I'm not so sure I completely agree with that. In the name of reasonable arguments, here's my take on the whole situation. The company asked for the ride (mind you, the same company that already pretty much blamed Intamin for screwing up Maverick's heartline, but were still satisfied with the final product in the end). Intamin provides the plans, and both sides agree.

 

The coaster is built to specs. Now, regardless of hindsight speculation, the coaster was obviously tested and met all state, federal, whatever requirements for being functional within limits to the human body. At this point I'd be willing to bet at least someone knew they were pushing the limits. Either way, the ride opens to the usual fanfare of media day, and almost instantly, message boards and all kinds of social media light up with personal reports from very reputable riders of "greying out" for the first time in years.

 

To me, it seems there would be no way at least some park representative wouldn't take note of this. As a park owner, and even company president, I don't see how you couldn't. While it may seem like an extreme stance, I doubt any executive would want a "Mission:Space" scenario potentially playing out as the ride begins to open to larger groups of GP. I mean, again, we're talking about very reputable sources consistently using the word "intense" to describe the experience. If extremely experienced riders were reporting that, I know I'd be somewhat concerned.

 

So trims are added. While the park spins the usual "maintenance/wear and tear" issues reasoning (and yes, it certainly does figure into it), I'm still personally convinced that there is no substitute for actual live human feedback, and that it played a definitive role in scaling back the forces of the ride.

 

So you have a few coaster dorks pissed off about the ride not delivering to specs.....big deal. What you DO have is a quality ride that was tweaked without ever experiencing any down time. Does this hurt Intamin? I don't think so. They still delivered what they promised. But they also had a very reliable "Plan B" implemented into the design as well.

 

Stuff happens. I'm still very anxious to ride the coaster though.

[ajm1240]

Well, I have no way of knowing for certain, but I think that the constant wheel maintainance was the driving force behind the trims not the "Grey Out" situation. They could not keep 2 trains running on most days in April and May due to wheel warping and blistering. People are still "Greying Out," so I don't buy that as the main excuse. Which, to me, makes it again, a design flaw in my mind.

 

Point being, I am more disappointed in Intamin than KD or CF. It is still a great ride, but it is reversed now for me. Used to be the first half was outstanding and the second half was merely okay. Now the first half is merely okay, with everything after the second hill being outstanding. Again, just my opinion.

[FeelTheFORCE]

Intamin should know it makes THEM look bad in the industry when stuff like this happens. They know what will work. They have all the numbers and science and experience. If what you say is the case, then they are even more at fault, because they had to KNOW the ride was not maintainable at specs.

 

They have hurt their own chances of getting the contract the next time a big park wants an extreme ride. Not that they are hurting for clients I suppose, so maybe they just don't care.

 

Intamin has always been a company known to take risks, and I'm happy they do that. If they didn't, the industry would get boring and it would be cookie-cutter after cookie-cutter, year after year. With Intamin, parks have someone to contract to build something that will "put their park on the map," if you will, and give that park a "wow factor." Don't get me wrong, B&M, S&S, Premier, etc. all make great rides, but I don't see as many people scrambling to get down to Carowinds as they are for KD. Not to mention, it's lucky the Carowinds thread stays on the first page, this thread seems as if it's been at the top since Robb first rode I305.

[robbalvey]

Well, I have no way of knowing for certain, but I think that the constant wheel maintainance was the driving force behind the trims not the "Grey Out" situation. They could not keep 2 trains running on most days in April and May due to wheel warping and blistering. People are still "Greying Out," so I don't buy that as the main excuse. Which, to me, makes it again, a design flaw in my mind.

 

Point being, I am more disappointed in Intamin than KD or CF. It is still a great ride, but it is reversed now for me. Used to be the first half was outstanding and the second half was merely okay. Now the first half is merely okay, with everything after the second hill being outstanding. Again, just my opinion.

I've said it before in this thread, but I'll say it again. These kinds of things happen all the time. If you think that you can open a $25 million dollar ride which is one of the biggest, tallest, fastest, etc, in the world and expect it to work perfectly from day one and all the engineers walk away from it, then you don't know a single thing about theme park projects at all.

 

Every project that is built, even the 1000th Boomerang installation requires some "work in progress" for a couple months afterwards.

 

A project the size of I305 I expect them to work on it for a good few months.

 

I can't think of a single project that hasn't gone through similar tweaks. This one just has much more exposure than others.

 

--Robb

[larrygator]

Does anyone know who manufactured the wheels for Intimadator 305? Is it Intamin themeselves or are they outsourced?

[jsz1002]

Intamin should know it makes THEM look bad in the industry when stuff like this happens. They know what will work. They have all the numbers and science and experience. If what you say is the case, then they are even more at fault, because they had to KNOW the ride was not maintainable at specs.

 

They have hurt their own chances of getting the contract the next time a big park wants an extreme ride. Not that they are hurting for clients I suppose, so maybe they just don't care.

 

Intamin has always been a company known to take risks, and I'm happy they do that. If they didn't, the industry would get boring and it would be cookie-cutter after cookie-cutter, year after year. With Intamin, parks have someone to contract to build something that will "put their park on the map," if you will, and give that park a "wow factor." Don't get me wrong, B&M, S&S, Premier, etc. all make great rides, but I don't see as many people scrambling to get down to Carowinds as they are for KD. Not to mention, it's lucky the Carowinds thread stays on the first page, this thread seems as if it's been at the top since Robb first rode I305.

Would this thread have stayed on the first page if the ride was running as originally opened? I doubt it. Also, I don't know how much of a "risk" Intamin takes. I'm sure they do plenty of R&D before even agreeing to install a "cutting edge" ride.

[Fallen Heretic]

I came into this thread last week and people were arguing whether Inty have made a mistake or are at fault. I come in today, and some of you are still at it. Clearly there are people here who dont have enough snuffy-lovin in their lives. Maybe get big-bird involved to, he must be after something the way he is always hanging around.

 

Im really not getting what the big deal is. Its not like people will ride it and say "Wow, this ride sucks, if only it went 10 or 15 mph faster, then it would own!" Im willing to put money on it being awesome with or without trims. Im really not seeing the problem here.

 

 

Actually I just though of something else. Did Inty actually design the layout as well? I thought there were often four (or five) companies involved in building a coaster. The ride system designer (inty, B&M, etc), sometimes the steel company that manufactures the parts, the park, the company that plugs it together, and often a third party designer who does the layout. If the 305 layout was designed by a third party or the park, then any arguments stating Inty are at fault for bad design are null and void. right?

 

Oh God, stop me, Im being drawn into the web of geeky sin! Now, wheres that snuffy soft toy...

[robbalvey]

Actually I just though of something else. Did Inty actually design the layout as well? I thought there were often four (or five) companies involved in building a coaster.

Yes, there were many, many companies involved. But no one seems to understand that. I'm glad someone does. And no one even seems to understand that the coaster is going to be tweaked and changed for probably months to come. Because that's just what you do on these types of projects.

 

--Robb "How many years did it take to get TDD right?" Alvey

[FeelTheFORCE]

Would this thread have stayed on the first page if the ride was running as originally opened? I doubt it. Also, I don't know how much of a "risk" Intamin takes. I'm sure they do plenty of R&D before even agreeing to install a "cutting edge" ride.

 

Hence why I said "since Robb first rode it," which was well before the trims were added (about 1.5 to 2 months).

 

Regarding the "risk" aspect, I think you took my comment too literal. Of course they do extensive testing and years of research before building, as lives could possibly be at stake if something fails. That doesn't disregard the fact that 9 of the top 13 fastest coasters are Intamin, and 7 of the top 10 tallest coasters are Intamin. How is that not taking some risks?

[ajm1240]

Well, I have no way of knowing for certain, but I think that the constant wheel maintainance was the driving force behind the trims not the "Grey Out" situation. They could not keep 2 trains running on most days in April and May due to wheel warping and blistering. People are still "Greying Out," so I don't buy that as the main excuse. Which, to me, makes it again, a design flaw in my mind.

 

Point being, I am more disappointed in Intamin than KD or CF. It is still a great ride, but it is reversed now for me. Used to be the first half was outstanding and the second half was merely okay. Now the first half is merely okay, with everything after the second hill being outstanding. Again, just my opinion.

I've said it before in this thread, but I'll say it again. These kinds of things happen all the time. If you think that you can open a $25 million dollar ride which is one of the biggest, tallest, fastest, etc, in the world and expect it to work perfectly from day one and all the engineers walk away from it, then you don't know a single thing about theme park projects at all.

 

Every project that is built, even the 1000th Boomerang installation requires some "work in progress" for a couple months afterwards.

 

A project the size of I305 I expect them to work on it for a good few months.

 

I can't think of a single project that hasn't gone through similar tweaks. This one just has much more exposure than others.

 

--Robb

 

Fair enough. Not to be a troll, but are there many coasters with trims most of the way down the first drop like this? I honestly just don't know. At first blush to me it seemed like a drastic tweak. But I must admit I really don't know that for a fact. It might be a common practice.

 

-Big _Al

[ginzo]

^The Beast has trims on the drops after both of its lift hills. On the second lift hill's drop, I believe there is more than one trim, but I'm not 100% on that. Yes, it is kind of obnoxious. Maybe KD will be to tweak the trims on i305 to achieve a more thrilling drop when they get more time. Right now they're quite busy with running the park and might just not have time to get i305 running as well as it can run. There are only so many hours in the day and keeping the park running/dollars flowing into the cash registers is always going to take priority over tweaking a ride, even if it is their star attraction.

[Vigil]

I can understand where the rest of you are coming from i.e. that rides need to be tweaked, etc. But the need to reduce the speed by 15 mph from the original speed is a rather large percent error. Yes...we don't know enough to make a final judgment. But still...could their projections have been that much off? And the answer could be "yes". We don't know.

 

To me its not that the trims are there...I could care less; its still gonna be a kicka$$ ride. Its more why they needed them in the first place.

[robbalvey]

are there many coasters with trims most of the way down the first drop like this?

I think you also need to ask...

 

"How many coasters out there do what i305 does?"

 

And then the follow up question would be...

 

"How many more changes will we see over this season?"

 

I think many of the people questioning or complaining are being very premature with their statements.

 

This ride has only been open for 8 weeks and how many different configurations with the trims have we seen? Remember this ride did open WITH trims, so it's not as though trims were not in the initial plan, they have just been moved around to different areas and tweaked.

 

I would put money on it that things will continue to change.

 

Aren't new restraints on the way? I'll bet things will change again once they see how those affect the ride.

 

Keep in mind that there is only one other ride of this type in the world, and that ride was built 10 years ago, and probably being designed more than 12 years ago. A lot has changed in the word of technology in a decade.

 

But the need to reduce the speed by 15 mph from the original speed is a rather large percent error.

 

Has anyone, other than RCDB, actually confirmed this?

 

--Robb

Edited June 3, 2010 by robbalvey

[Hercules]

^ I don't believe that anyone has. In fact, I was a little shocked the change was made on RCDB considering, at least from my experience, Duane seems to wait for absolute confirmation on things before making an addition or change to the site.

[cgodsey]

Here's an analogy that might get through to people:

 

You have a sports car with Z rated tires (very soft). You regularly drive 90+ miles an hour in a hot climate causing you to have to shell out $1,500 every 3 months because you are wearing them out. What do you do? Do you continue to burn money or do you drive a little slower and figure out which tires last the longest for your driving habits?

 

Keep in mind that these wheels could be THOUSANDS per set so in essence they could be blowing 20-40K every time they replace the wheels on one train. Wouldn't you trim the ride too until you could figure out the best wheel compounds needed for the Virginia climate and the ride's 90+ speed?

[bgwfreak777]

Good point Robb, and does anyone remember all the trouble they had with Volcano?

 

It took what, 3 years to finally get it running reliably and I don't recall ever riding it with 3 trains, just 2.

 

A friend of mine did get to ride it opening year, but it took 3 hours.

[robbalvey]

^ I don't believe that anyone has. In fact, I was a little shocked the change was made on RCDB considering, at least from my experience, Duane seems to wait for absolute confirmation on things before making an addition or change to the site.

See, and this is why I raise the question. I have a dialogue going on right now with both Intamin and the park and neither one have confirmed nor denied that the information on RCDB is correct. I'm not sure where Duane got that information, but I would certainly question it's legitimacy.

 

--Robb

[Hercules]

Here's an analogy that might get through to people:

 

You have a sports car with Z rated tires (very soft). You regularly drive 90+ miles an hour in a hot climate causing you to have to shell out $1,500 every 3 months because you are wearing them out. What do you do? Do you continue to burn money or do you drive a little slower and figure out which tires last the longest for your driving habits?

 

Keep in mind that these wheels could be THOUSANDS per set so in essence they could be blowing 20-40K every time they replace the wheels on one train. Wouldn't you trim the ride too until you could figure out the best wheel compounds needed for the Virginia climate and the ride's 90+ speed?

 

Ah, but you see, Intamin should have taken that into account before designing the ride this way, causing King's Dominion to have a faulty product and falsely advertise it to the public

[ajm1240]

^Would a radar gun work from the public road behind the coaster? There must be some "poe-leese-man" coaster nerd who could zip by and get a measurement.

 

I'll say this after having ridden it last week. It feels like it COULD be as low as 79mph,(Still a fast coaster) but honestly how the heck would I really know? Just a guess. The rumor was that it was actually running quite a bit faster than 94mph to start with, so who knows? I'd estimate in the Low 80's but nothing to really back that up other then comparing it to what the speed felt like before.

 

-Big_Al