Kings Dominion (KD) Discussion Thread

[Homeboy23]

^ Even if they know what they are doing people make mistakes every day, plain and simple. No one in the world is perfect and especially no companies are perfect. Atleast they are doing something with their mistakes and fixing them. Unlike some who will act like nothing is wrong.

[BRTeller]

^ Even if they know what they are doing people make mistakes every day, plain and simple. No one in the world is perfect and especially no companies are perfect. Atleast they are doing something with their mistakes and fixing them. Unlike some who will act like nothing is wrong.

 

I agree with you. I agree that Intamin is also one of the few designers pushing the limits. But I don't think that excuse is valid for every single mistake they've made. I also don't think it's ok for a company to make so many errors even when pushing the limits. Maybe they do need better engineers, I don't know.

 

I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But getting all worked up over an opinion of mine, just because you don't agree with me. Doesn't make me wrong, it doesn't make you or anyone else wrong either. It's just opinions, and very few people here, if any. Have the right, or expert opinion to talk about any of this. Weather it's against, or defending Intamin.

 

 

EDIT: I guess Robb just has it out for me for some reason. I'm dyslexic by the way Robb. So I spelled it weather on accident.

Edited May 24, 2010 by BRTeller

[robbalvey]

I said I saw these problems from an amateur point of view.

 

I also don't think it's ok for a company to make so many errors even when pushing the limits.

 

This is somewhat of a trend of Intamin

 

Maybe they do need better engineers, I don't know.

 

Weather it's against, or defending Intamin.

 

 

just because you don't agree with me. Doesn't make me wrong

No! Not at all! But OMFG, it's funny as hell!!!!

 

Oh man...I have seriously not laughed so much in the last couple of days!

 

Thank you BRTeller for that amazing entertainment!

Edited May 24, 2010 by robbalvey

[CPmaverick]

^That is the best post I have ever seen

[jsz1002]

^ Even if they know what they are doing people make mistakes every day, plain and simple. No one in the world is perfect and especially no companies are perfect. Atleast they are doing something with their mistakes and fixing them. Unlike some who will act like nothing is wrong.

They are fixing their mistakes because they have to! Their reputation is at stake if they don't. Also, there could be legal consequences if they don't!

[Koolkid]

^^^ ...

 

So now when people state an opinion you personally don't understand you laugh at them? Unbelieveable. People aren't always going to have the same opinion as you, and just because they don't doesn't mean they should be singled out for it.

 

I personally love Intamin and there my favourite manufacturer BUT they have made some pretty poor mistakes. Just look at Thirteen's 20 second coaster section to see what a mess that is. An extremely short, runaway train like section, and it's had to have trims added. Not even 100ft+ in height or 50mph+ in speed and a manufacturer like Intamin has got it so horribly wrong.

 

Honestly can't believe the ambassador for this site and someone who a lot of the parks themselves respect, has just taken the p*** out of someone because they didn't agree with there opinion. Sometimes it is hard to get things to come across as you mean them when on forums such as this. Typing is different to talking.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Koolkid

[ParkTrips]

^ I am glad that someone brought that up too. I never really understood the argument that slowing down the chain would cause that big of a difference based on that principle. Either people bring it up as an end all solution to not having to put in trims, or they get up in arms about a lift being slowed down. It isn't that big of a deal, and physics proves it.

I actually think there probably is a difference, albeit insignificant. Saying potential energy doesn't change since the height of the structure is constant is totally legit - in terms of the y axis. At a certain point, there is no more positive velocity in the y-direction (a=g), so no matter how fast it was when it got there, its going to start the fall down at a velocity of 0, and end at the same negative velocity along the y-axis. Problem is that this motion is in 2 or 3 dimensions (I haven't been on Intimidator, so I'm not sure if there is a movement along the z-axis on the drop we're talking about). A roller coaster train crests the lift with positive velocity in the x-direction. I would *think* a change in initial x-velocity would result in a different final velocity in the x-direction. Of course, the greater the speed, the greater the drag. Then you have friction. And a variable payload.

 

Bottom line, I think there is some truth to a variable relation between lift speed and max speed. I just doubt the "OMGZ" sort of crowd is deducting this from physics, rather, just hysteria. I also doubt the difference would be significant, as seen on El Toro

 

btw engineering types, feel free to correct me! I hated this stuff!

Edited May 24, 2010 by ParkTrips

[robbalvey]

^ Even if they know what they are doing people make mistakes every day, plain and simple. No one in the world is perfect and especially no companies are perfect. Atleast they are doing something with their mistakes and fixing them. Unlike some who will act like nothing is wrong.

They are fixing their mistakes because they have to! Their reputation is at stake if they don't. Also, there could be legal consequences if they don't!

Just throwing this out there as a possiblity...but did you ever consider that *maybe* the ride actually *IS* working as designed, but the park requested the trims because once they realized just how much maintenance is going to cost once the ride is open the park wanted to make some changes?

 

I am in no way saying this is the case...BUT...so many people seem to think this is a "mistake" when in reality that could not even be the case at all!

 

How many people have bought a car, which worked as designed, but then made their own modifications on it because they wanted it to perform differently?

 

Happens ALL THE TIME!

 

Moral of the story: If you don't actually have any real information about a situation, don't try to place blame on one side of the party without assuming there could be equal responsibility on the other.

[piers]

^ I am glad that someone brought that up too. I never really understood the argument that slowing down the chain would cause that big of a difference based on that principle. Either people bring it up as an end all solution to not having to put in trims, or they get up in arms about a lift being slowed down. It isn't that big of a deal, and physics proves it.

I actually think there probably is a difference, albeit insignificant. Saying potential energy doesn't change since the height of the structure is constant is totally legit - in terms of the y axis. At a certain point, there is no more positive velocity in the y-direction (a=g), so no matter how fast it was when it got there, its going to start the fall down at a velocity of 0, and end at the same negative velocity along the y-axis. Problem is that this motion is in 2 or 3 dimensions (I haven't been on Intimidator, so I'm not sure if there is a movement along the z-axis on the drop we're talking about). A roller coaster train crests the lift with positive velocity in the x-direction. I would *think* a change in initial x-velocity would result in a different final velocity in the x-direction. Of course, the greater the speed, the greater the drag. Then you have friction. And a variable payload.

 

I was gonna say the exact same thing.

[ParkTrips]

^ I hope you've been drinking!!

[TPDave]

What shouldn't be overlooked is that this is Intamin's second coaster in the States that required major* modifications after installation.

I also want to make sure it's not overlooked that this has happened a *LOT* with different manufacturers over the years...not just Intamin...

 

For example, all of the Arrow "big three" multiloopers (Viper, Shockwave, GASM) had to have their vertical loops completely re-designed and replaced. All of the early Premier LIM launchers (Mr. Freezes, Outer Limits, Chiller, Jinx, etc) all needed to have their trains re-modified, Zonga's inversions had to be completely re-designed, Rattler's drop had to be re-profiled, all the Deja Vu's...delayed about 6 months, Hypersonic was so bad that it didn't even last 10 years...do we even want to get into what happened to Son of Beast???

 

So in the grand scheme of roller coaster design f**k ups, all of a sudden Maverick's heartline and i305's trim don't look so bad now, does it?

 

--Robb "Just trying to put things back into perspective here..." Alvey

 

To be honest, I wouldn't even call adding the trims a f*uck up. I would assume (although have no knowledge if I'm right or not!) that Intamin knew *exactly* what this ride was going to do, the train design is well known and the layout has been perfected over many iterations of track design so I think it's conceivable that they planned to make the ride insane and then tone it down to something manageable (from a rider and maintenance perspective) rather than have a sub par experience. Whichever way you cut it, I can't wait to ride this thing in the summer!!

 

Regardless of how fast the ride is going on the lift, it still has the exact same potential energy, (because of the height of the drop) and will be converted at *almost* the same rate during that plummet.

 

I'm glad someone brought this up again as my days in Physics Class were over 25 years ago, but that was what I remember. This same argument came up when they slowed down the chain lift on El Toro and hundrerds of rides later I still feel no difference on the El Toro drop.

 

Columbia, it has the same potential energy, but not the same kinetic energy. If I can be bothered i'll do a couple of sums at some point but the speed of the lift will make a difference to the velocity of the train down the drop, although it will be a tiny and as Larry said, isn't noticeable when you ride.

 

Dave "I just wanted to add that I saw all of this happening way off, the first time I saw a NL recreation I knew something wasn't right!" Wilson

[robbalvey]

So now when people state an opinion you personally don't understand you laugh at them? Unbelieveable. People aren't always going to have the same opinion as you, and just because they don't doesn't mean they should be singled out for it.

No, no, no...you're not getting it. It's not about if I agree with him or not. It's that his post was SO DAMN FUNNY!!!

 

Seriouly, it's hilarious!

 

He should be commended for the comic relief he's added to this thread.

 

 

--Robb "Anyone who is that hilarious DESERVES to be singled out!" Alvey

[jsz1002]

^ Even if they know what they are doing people make mistakes every day, plain and simple. No one in the world is perfect and especially no companies are perfect. Atleast they are doing something with their mistakes and fixing them. Unlike some who will act like nothing is wrong.

They are fixing their mistakes because they have to! Their reputation is at stake if they don't. Also, there could be legal consequences if they don't!

Just throwing this out there as a possiblity...but did you ever consider that *maybe* the ride actually *IS* working as designed, but the park requested the trims because once they realized just how much maintenance is going to cost once the ride is open the park wanted to make some changes?

 

I am in no way saying this is the case...BUT...so many people seem to think this is a "mistake" when in reality that could not even be the case at all!

 

How many people have bought a car, which worked as designed, but then made their own modifications on it because they wanted it to perform differently?

 

Happens ALL THE TIME!

 

Moral of the story: If you don't actually have any real information about a situation, don't try to place blame on one side of the party without assuming there could be equal responsibility on the other.

So you're saying it's designed to go through wheels daily? I'm sure the wheel manufactuer would love to believe that!!

[Meteornotes]

Once again, I had no idea that so many junior and senior high schools offered Engineering degrees...

 

dt

[B-RadG]

So you're saying it's designed to go through wheels daily? I'm sure the wheel manufactuer would love to believe that!!

Well I mean if I were I'd be quite pleased to be getting thousands daily from a park. Ya never know what's going through those crazy Swiss brains of theirs

[coasterkyle]

.

 

 

EDIT: I guess Robb just has it out for me for some reason. I'm dyslexic by the way Robb. So I spelled it weather on accident.

 

It's not that he has something against you, Its because you are a 17 year old kid that most likely has never taken any type of engineering class. so by basically stating that engineering is easy and just because they were in the field for 30 years should make them perfect, it doesn't. Just sit back and enjoy the ride, if you cant because of the trims , don't ride it makes the lines shorter.

[Koolkid]

^ Hmm see I thought one of the reasons why your a coaster enthusiast is to understand why/how parks do things so saying "just sit back and enjoy the ride" is such a pointless comment.

 

Also, you don't need engineering degrees to understand when a coaster has obvious flaws in terms of design.

 

And to be honest Robb I fail to see what was so extremely hilarious with what he said, if you look at videos of the speed at which that heartline roll on Maverick was taken, it's obvious it would cause problems.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Koolkid

[BRTeller]

It's not that he has something against you, Its because you are a 17 year old kid that most likely has never taken any type of engineering class. so by basically stating that engineering is easy and just because they were in the field for 30 years should make them perfect, it doesn't. Just sit back and enjoy the ride, if you cant because of the trims , don't ride it makes the lines shorter.

 

I'm not entirely against the trims. I think I'd rather have more on the drop, rather then ones on the last airtime hill. When I rode I305, the turn was quite intense, and the airtime hill at the end was lacking. So I'll enjoy the ride either way. I tried to make it clear that I wasn't experienced at all with engineering specifics, and certainly not as much as the Intamin engineers, and it was only my opinion. I don't know what else to say. My only point that I was trying to get across was that Intamin should be held responsible to a certain degree, just like any other company.

 

Also, I'm not speaking for I305 completely. Since Robb is right that we don't know the entire reason the trims were added.

Edited May 24, 2010 by BRTeller

[BeemerBoy]

Is the ride still operating without any downtime?

[robbalvey]

And to be honest Robb I fail to see what was so extremely hilarious with what he said, if you look at videos of the speed at which that heartline roll on Maverick was taken, it's obvious it would cause problems.

It saddens me that you are not able to understand such amazingly well crafted comedy.

 

So you're saying it's designed to go through wheels daily? I'm sure the wheel manufactuer would love to believe that!!

Do you know what the projected maintenance budget for the ride was? Do you know how many wheels normal operation is supposed to go through? DO YOU???

 

No, of course you don't. And neither do I.

 

But all I'm saying is that somewhere out there exists a budget for this in a parks financial plan.

 

And somewhere out there exists a projected or suggested amount of maintanence from the manufacturer.

 

I have personally seen, and experienced projects where, even though these numbers DO match up, and the project IS on budget for what was projected, the buyer then raises the question AFTER development is complete "Can anything be done to reduce this cost?" And then the developer (in this case would be Intamin) makes their recommendations. It is then up to the park to act on that recommendation.

 

Let me put it in simpler terms.

 

Let's say you buy a car that, by the manufactuer's recommendation, suggests you put 92 Octane fuel in your car. After running your car for a month, you realize "well, even though I fully knew about this cost when I bought the car, can anything be done to lessen the cost?" And you ask the manufacturer "Can the car run on cheaper fuel?" And they respond "Yes, of course it can...but it might not run quite as fast or quite as efficient. It will save you money on gas, but it might not perform as we originally intended. But that's totally up to you, the ower of the car, if you want to save a bit of money and don't mind a slightly slower car from what was originally projected."

 

In this obscure example (only because YOU brought up the subject of the wheels specifically, and no one actually really knows for sure that is specific reason why the trims were put on the ride in the first place), the car would be I305, and the "fuel" would be the wheels.

 

And just to make sure I'm clear about this, I am speaking from *actual* experience having dealt with *real* developers in these types of situations. I'm not just speculating or making this stuff up. I have REAL PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE dealing with these same kinds of issues. I'm not saying that this is what is happening with I305, I'm just putting it out there that it is a *REAL POSSIBILITY.*

 

--Robb "Hopefully some of you appreciate that I speak from actual professional experience, and not just making up crap for the sake of pointless drama." Alvey

 

ps...

 

Once again, I had no idea that so many junior and senior high schools offered Engineering degrees...

QFT!

Edited May 24, 2010 by robbalvey

[hobbit]

The new test seat is awesome !!,, Hope that they build this into the trains.. !

Test Seat

[coasterkyle]

^ Hmm see I thought one of the reasons why your a coaster enthusiast is to understand why/how parks do things so saying "just sit back and enjoy the ride" is such a pointless comment.

Yes, but not to criticize the park/ manufacture for every little change they do to a ride. People make it sound like 2012 came early.

 

If i were to go by a few of your guys statements ... i would consider every B&M that has a trim a bad design, because if they were to design the ride correctly (according to some of you ) they wouldn't need trims. With making hypers for 11 years you would think they would be able to design it w/o trims.

[Gerstlauer1]

In a way I think it is good with trims on I305, because of the chances to get a grey or black-out in the first turn.

There most be something with these "Drop and turn fast" layouts, because when i rode Piraten the Intamin Mega Lite in Djurs Sommerland, i actually greyed out.

 

That scares me Like in that sense of "This might actually be a little too much for me" (like Robb said)

[Hercules]

I love how people automatically assume things about other people. Personally, I just enjoy sitting back and enjoying a ride. Or just taking a nice stroll and taking in the park. Does that make me less of an "enthusiast"?! I mean, I enjoy the business and operations aspect of the industry, but just because I don't break it down to the point of nausia and essentially make it life does that mean I have to turn in my "enthusiast" card? I know my boundaries of expertise. I have tried to learn the engineering aspects of rides and such, but it just isn't my thing. Let them do what they have to do to the coaster. It isn't the end of the world.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Hercules

[mhuffva]

I wonder if installing larger diameter wheels and/or vented wheels on the trains would limit or eliminate the rapid wheel deterioration that I305 is experiencing now?

 

Larger diameter wheels would have fewer rotations and there would be less heat generated. Vented wheels could possibly dissipate the heat faster keeping the wheel rim material from melting or breaking up. Maybe a combination of the two? Course, there might be a limit on how much bigger the wheels can be based on the existing train design (train shell and undercarriage). If Intamin/KD took this route, it might mean the ride would have to be shut down for a week to make the switch and test. Or go to a one train operation during the week days so the other train could be refurbished and tested.