Dorney Park and Wildwater Kingdom Discussion Thread

[ScreaminNewEngland]

Something like Renagade would be prime! I honestly wanna see this park get something more than all the other ones this upcoming season.

[Rollercoaster Rider]

Something like Renagade would be prime! I honestly wanna see this park get something more than all the other ones this upcoming season.

 

 

Isn't Renegade an Out & Back? They already have Thunder Hawk, Something like Thunderhead/Gold Striker would be amazing though.

[coasterchitchat]

A good GCI is what I would like.

 

What about Dorney adding a WindSeeker in 2015/2016?

[rcjp]

^Yeah a GCI would be nice. Thunderhawk might not be too bad but it's not anything special either (especially with that trim before the last hills). It was a fun ride, nonetheless.

[coasterbill]

I sincerely hope Dorney doesn't get a wood coaster, they let Thunderhawk go from really good to complete crap in just a few short years because they seem to have no interest in doing the maintenance that wood coasters require. Their answer is more brakes and minimal track work and it's resulted in a painful and slow ride. Why do we have any reason to think a GCI would be any different after a few years?

 

Plus, unless you've got some hard figures to back up your argument, you can't tell just from looking at the length of the lines whenever you happen to be there what kind of impact Hydra made on attendance. The water park is a bigger draw sure, but you can't say people who go to Dorney aren't interested in roller coasters because that is demonstrably false. The people who go to Dorney are the same people that go to every other park. I am 100% certain they will get a major new installation at some point, when I can't tell you, but I'm certain they will, as long as CF isn't planning on abandoning the property. Why do I think the strategy you propose is a bad one? Because no major park can hope to survive without occasionally adding new headlining attractions, that's simply a fact (especially in an area as competitive as this one). Also keep in mind that the economy, as well as many of the areas around Allentown, are on the upswing.

 

Dorney park doesn't release attendance figures so neither of us have hard figures to back anything up. If I can't base attendance on what I see when I go to the park that's fine, but then likewise you can't really claim that Hydra paid off because of that same logic.

 

There are 2 reasons why I don't think Dorney will spend much on a new coaster...

 

1) They haven't in almost 10 years which seems to be proof that they don't think it makes sense financially. If it did they would have done it already.

 

2) The major draw is the waterpark and the family rides. That's what sets them apart from the competition. Six Flags Great Adventure is murdering them in the coaster department and that's never going to change. Anyone who would argue that the 2 parks are even on the same planet in that department is insane. Hershey has better coasters and comparable flats but Dorney has a much larger and better waterpark. The only advantage they have over Hershey is the waterpark, and the advantage they have over Great Adventure is the family rides, family atmosphere and the waterpark that's included with admission.

 

Dorney needs some coasters so it can appeal to everyone but just from walking through the park you can see that the big draws are the non coaster rides and the waterpark. Non coaster rides always have lines, the coasters rarely even fill the trains on Saturdays in the summer or during Halloween. Sure you could argue that non coaster rides don't have the capacity which is why the lines are shorter, but they also shouldn't have the same appeal which should balance that out.

 

Dorney seems to be investing in non coaster rides and in the waterpark which makes sense because those are their biggest draws. Occasionally they'll mix in a cheap or relocated coaster to keep the coaster people happy (because 99.9999999% of people don't know or care that it's not a brand new ride so the park doesn't care either) but there is no reason for them to spend 15-25 million dollars on a big B&M coaster that will be a walk on on it's opening day and every day after that when they could get a better return by putting it anywhere else because of attendance, merchandise and increased Fastlane sales. Nobody buys Fastlane at Dorney and if they do they're either stupid or using it in the waterpark.

 

I'd love for Dorney to get a huge new coaster but it's not what their clientele wants and it makes no sense for them to spend the money on it. If it did they would have actually invested in an expensive new coaster but they haven't done that in almost 10 years.

[rcjp]

Nobody buys Fastlane at Dorney and if they do they're either stupid or using it in the waterpark.

Actually when I went there I saw a couple of people with fastlane (using it on the coasters) and I remember thinking: "Why?" as they basically joined the queue in the place where it actually began.

This was a Saturday in August and the lines for the coasters never really exceeded 20 minutes except for when the waterpark closed, then we really had an idea of how many people were there compared to the rest of the park.

[coasterbill]

A good GCI is what I would like.

 

What about Dorney adding a WindSeeker in 2015/2016?

 

Dorney is/was absolutely supposed to get a Windseeker. It's not like I have insider information, they just never made any attempt to hide the fact that they were getting a Windseeker. When they took out their best coaster for that disaster of a ride that routinely stands riders and currently has no train on it they added a Windseeker pad and queue area complete with lights on the queue area.

 

 

 

Source: Myself (no not me, that's his name lol)

 

I wonder if they cancelled it though based on the problems they had. The good news is that because of it's location near Stinger they could just build the Fire Department a special gate right there so when they show up to help the stranded riders on Windseeker / Stinger multiple times a summer they would have an easy way to get in without the hassle of driving through the park.

[rcjp]

The good news is that because of it's location near Stinger they could just build the Fire Department a special gate right there so when they show up to help the stranded riders on Windseeker / Stinger multiple times a summer they would have an easy way to get in without the hassle of driving through the park.

[neil009]

I sincerely hope Dorney doesn't get a wood coaster, they let Thunderhawk go from really good to complete crap in just a few short years because they seem to have no interest in doing the maintenance that wood coasters require. Their answer is more brakes and minimal track work and it's resulted in a painful and slow ride. Why do we have any reason to think a GCI would be any different after a few years?

 

Because no matter how much money they pump into TH it'll never be a major draw for them, unlike a new GCI would be. They're not the only corporate park who's let their classic coaster become an overly braked shake-fest, no need to single them out for that.

 

1) They haven't in almost 10 years which seems to be proof that they don't think it makes sense financially. If it did they would have done it already.

 

Except, oh wait, Dorney has added new coasters in that time. Two of them, in fact, which means the rate at which they add coasters is actually pretty average. They may not have been new or expensive, but moving them there was still a sizable investment, and why would CF have bothered when they could have just gotten more flats which would've been cheaper? It's because Dorney's clientele do in fact love coasters, and they needed new ones to advertise and keep them afloat against their competition, even though CF was obviously concerned with putting its most expensive investments elsewhere. But where are you getting this idea that just because CF hasn't done something for awhile it means they never will again? SFGAdv hasn't gotten a new original coaster in eight years, probably soon to be nine, are you going to say they're doomed to clones and relocations forever and ever as well?

 

2) The major draw is the waterpark and the family rides. That's what sets them apart from the competition. Six Flags Great Adventure is murdering them in the coaster department and that's never going to change. Anyone who would argue that the 2 parks are even on the same planet in that department is insane. Hershey has better coasters and comparable flats but Dorney has a much larger and better waterpark. The only advantage they have over Hershey is the waterpark, and the advantage they have over Great Adventure is the family rides, family atmosphere and the waterpark that's included with admission.

 

By your logic, Great Adventure should never add a kiddie ride or family ride again, and Hershey should stop trying with their water park. Neither of those things are going to happen either, because the owners of all three parks know that to have a successful major park you need a mix of attractions that offers a little bit of everything against the competition. Nobody goes to Knoebels for big looping steel coasters, right? Look what they're building. Outside of Hershey, Dorney is still the biggest park for coasters in all of eastern PA, that's still a major draw for them.

 

Dorney needs some coasters so it can appeal to everyone but just from walking through the park you can see that the big draws are the non coaster rides and the waterpark. Non coaster rides always have lines, the coasters rarely even fill the trains on Saturdays in the summer or during Halloween. Sure you could argue that non coaster rides don't have the capacity which is why the lines are shorter, but they also shouldn't have the same appeal which should balance that out.

 

I don't know why you keep saying this, the coasters are most certainly not always walk-ons during the summer especially after the water park closes, and this has been corroborated by several other people in this thread. No the lines never get that bad, but walk-ons? No. And I don't know which Halloween event you were at but last time I went the coasters got pretty sizeable lines after dark. Regardless, have you ever considered that maybe what you're seeing is actually a sign of attendance flagging in general, that maybe that's what a park with a large water park looks like when they're getting smoked by their competition, and NOT a sign that for some reason people who go to Dorney just don't like coasters?

 

Dorney seems to be investing in non coaster rides and in the waterpark which makes sense because those are their biggest draws. Occasionally they'll mix in a cheap or relocated coaster to keep the coaster people happy (because 99.9999999% of people don't know or care that it's not a brand new ride so the park doesn't care either) but there is no reason for them to spend 15-25 million dollars on a big B&M coaster that will be a walk on on it's opening day and every day after that when they could get a better return by putting it anywhere else because of attendance, merchandise and increased Fastlane sales. Nobody buys Fastlane at Dorney and if they do they're either stupid or using it in the waterpark.

 

Ok so we agree that "coaster people" go to Dorney. Then I'm sure you must realize that larger, original coasters boost attendance more than cheap inverted boomerangs, or else nobody would ever build large original coasters. Also, again, I don't know where you're getting your info but even Stinger wasn't a walk-on its opening year, I distinctly remember waiting at least 30 minutes in line for it and this was well into the summer, in the middle of the day when the water park was still open.

 

I'd love for Dorney to get a huge new coaster but it's not what their clientele wants and it makes no sense for them to spend the money on it. If it did they would have actually invested in an expensive new coaster but they haven't done that in almost 10 years.

 

Your argument seems to boil down to "If they were going to add a big expensive coaster they would've done it by now", which doesn't make any sense, and "People at Dorney don't want a big expensive coaster", which is flat out wrong. We'll probably have to agree to disagree.

 

You seem to be saying Dorney will do fine just continuing to do what they've been doing, but they are clearly not doing fine, so that right there invalidates your argument. Eventually Dorney is either going to see some heavier investments or it'll be sold/closed, one or the other. No way they'll continue on the way they've been going. CF has reported increasing revenue the past couple years so I'm pretty sure it'll be the former.

[coasterbill]

Because no matter how much money they pump into TH it'll never be a major draw for them, unlike a new GCI would be. They're not the only corporate park who's let their classic coaster become an overly braked shake-fest, no need to single them out for that.

 

I didn't single them out. I would have the same feeling of any park that had a history of neglecting wood coasters (and there are a lot of corporate parks that do). I'm not talking about huge Dinn coasters or complete maintenance nightmares like Hercules was but if you can't take care of a little coaster like Thunderhawk that has the potential to be really good then you likely won't take care of a new coaster very well either after a few years go by and it's not new anymore. All I said was that because of this I'd rather see a steel coaster.

 

Except, oh wait, Dorney has added new coasters in that time. Two of them, in fact, which means the rate at which they add coasters is actually pretty average. They may not have been new or expensive, but moving them there was still a sizable investment, and why would CF have bothered when they could have just gotten more flats which would've been cheaper? It's because Dorney's clientele do in fact love coasters, and they needed new ones to advertise and keep them afloat against their competition, even though CF was obviously concerned with putting its most expensive investments elsewhere. But where are you getting this idea that just because CF hasn't done something for awhile it means they never will again? SFGAdv hasn't gotten a new original coaster in eight years, probably soon to be nine, are you going to say they're doomed to clones and relocations forever and ever as well?

 

Yes... they added 2 cheap coasters during that time which is exactly what I said they should do. Add relocated coasters or other cheap coasters because they need coasters but it's not the main draw so pumping a ton of money into them doesn't make sense. I feel like we're saying the same thing here.

 

By your logic, Great Adventure should never add a kiddie ride or family ride again, and Hershey should stop trying with their water park. Neither of those things are going to happen either, because the owners of all three parks know that to have a successful major park you need a mix of attractions that offers a little bit of everything against the competition. Nobody goes to Knoebels for big looping steel coasters, right? Look what they're building. Outside of Hershey, Dorney is still the biggest park for coasters in all of eastern PA, that's still a major draw for them.

 

No. Those parks should continue buying those things because they're really, really, really cheap when compared to coasters. Dorney needs coasters but they shouldn't blow their budget on them when it's not their big draw. That's why I said they should get cheap coasters like Euro Fighter's and smaller family style coasters (like spinning coasters for example) and relocated coasters.

 

I don't know why you keep saying this, the coasters are most certainly not always walk-ons during the summer especially after the water park closes, and this has been corroborated by several other people in this thread. No the lines never get that bad, but walk-ons? No. And I don't know which Halloween event you were at but last time I went the coasters got pretty sizeable lines after dark. Regardless, have you ever considered that maybe what you're seeing is actually a sign of attendance flagging in general, that maybe that's what a park with a large water park looks like when they're getting smoked by their competition, and NOT a sign that for some reason people who go to Dorney just don't like coasters?

 

I keep saying that because it's true. Dorney never has lines for their coasters. The last time I went to Dorney (on Memorial Day with perfect weather after the waterpark closed) we waited 10 minutes for Talon and it was by far the longest line I've ever waited in at Dorney for a coaster. I was shocked... most of the time the coasters are walk ons or 1 train waits unless you're waiting for the front, even on Saturdays and during Halloween. That being said the flats and family rides always have lines and the waterpark is usually a mob scene.

 

Ok so we agree that "coaster people" go to Dorney.

 

When I say that I'm referring to people than enjoy coasters not coaster enthusiasts on message boards. I'm talking about families that go to Dorney because it has something for everyone which isn't really true at Great Adventure (though that's slowly improving) who have a few people that want to ride the coasters. Most people don't care or know if a coaster is relocated. I love when enthusiasts say "it's been "X amount of years since we've had a brand new coaster so we're due for one". No you're not... the percentage of park guests that know or care is so tiny that there's no way parks pay any attention to that. A relocated coaster is just as good as a new coaster to them.

 

Your argument seems to boil down to "If they were going to add a big expensive coaster they would've done it by now", which doesn't make any sense, and "People at Dorney don't want a big expensive coaster", which is flat out wrong. We'll probably have to agree to disagree.

 

You seem to be saying Dorney will do fine just continuing to do what they've been doing, but they are clearly not doing fine, so that right there invalidates your argument. Eventually Dorney is either going to see some heavier investments or it'll be sold/closed, one or the other. No way they'll continue on the way they've been going. CF has reported increasing revenue the past couple years so I'm pretty sure it'll be the former.

 

Why do you assume that the park isn't doing fine? The chain has had increasing revenues and Dorney's attendance seems to be pretty consistent this year with every other year so that's a pretty bold claim to make. A lot of people go to Dorney but a lot of them aren't there for the coasters.

[neil009]

^I'll get right to the point. Dorney is a major thrill park. They market themselves as a major thrill park in the local media and they already have several world-class (in terms of size) coasters, along with all of the maintenance cost and expense that entails. They need attractions that will drive attendance long-term. No it doesn't particularly matter if it's relocated, but spinning wild mice, small-scale eurofighters, these do not drive attendance long-term, at least when you're already the size of Dorney. If they did, then no park would ever build large coasters and our country would look like a giant German fair circuit.

 

Lack of new signature attractions is, I assume, one of the main reasons Dorney is failing, and it is obviously failing to some extent. The fact that you could walk around the park and see no lines for any of the major attractions and somehow take this to mean the park is doing fine, is strange to say the least. The recession came, parks like Dorney were hit hard, but things are generally on the upswing, they just got a huge water park expansion and there's no reason we shouldn't expect to see the dry side get a major expansion as well in the next couple years.

 

As to the line length discrepancy, tell you what, I will take some pictures of the lines next time I go and put together a nice little queue length TR, just for you, and in the event that I can't find a single ten minute + line, I will concede that what you're saying is even possible. Keep in mind I go every year and I have never seen a day that you describe, where every coaster is literally a walk-on all day.

[coasterbill]

This is a fun debate...

 

Lack of new signature attractions is, I assume, one of the main reasons Dorney is failing, and it is obviously failing to some extent. The fact that you could walk around the park and see no lines for any of the major attractions and somehow take this to mean the park is doing fine, is strange to say the least.

 

That's because Dorney has been like this for at least 20 years. The park brings in a ton of people... and they're all in the waterpark. It's not like the coasters at Dorney having short to non existent lines is a new phenomenon but Dorney still brings in a ton of people. Why? Because of the waterpark which was my original point.

 

They need attractions that will drive attendance long-term. No it doesn't particularly matter if it's relocated, but spinning wild mice, small-scale eurofighters, these do not drive attendance long-term, at least when you're already the size of Dorney. If they did, then no park would ever build large coasters and our country would look like a giant German fair circuit.

 

Every park and every market is different. Grouping them in like that doesn't make much sense. If you were talking about Cedar Point you'd be exactly right, but we're not. My point is that no coaster will drive attendance long term here in a measurable, significant way so making a huge investment on one is stupid. They need to have coasters and switch them up or bring new ones in to keep them fresh but the waterpark should be their focus. I was there on Hydra's opening day... it was a walk on and they couldn't even fill the trains. That really hasn't changed since. This ride will at most have a 5 minute wait on most days. Talon was/is a similar situation (even though Talon is a much better coaster than Hydra).

[Koasterking48]

^ If the lines are what you say they are, I can't imagine the park selling any Fast Lane passes and making any sort of revenue from that.

[coasterbill]

They really don't and the prices are proof of that. They're much lower than the other Cedar Fair parks and in the past nobody bought them. Link

 

Dorney got smart though and realized that they could make the Platinum Fastlane include waterpark attractions and now they sell a ton of them but they're useless in the dry park as even if the rides have short station waits the line is rarely before the merge point. Besides the mouse the only benefits on the dry park side are actually the water rides. Thunder Canyon and to a lesser extent White Water Landing depending on the day and Thunder Creek Mountain (which isn't listed but I'm pretty sure it's on the system). Free rides on Screamin Swing is a nice benefit too I guess.

[neil009]

Talon and SF both pulled huge crowds when they were new, I remember waiting an hour or more for both of them. By the time Hydra came the decline had already started, but it still wasn't like it is now. No point in arguing that since we're both just going off of memories of whatever random days we happened to show up. Although if what you're saying is true then I doubt CF would've made three massive attempts at making the park into a major coaster destination, in fact they could've abandoned the dry side completely if they'd wanted.

 

But the biggest point is that the dry side is at least twice as big as WWK. It doesn't take as much for WWK to look like a mad house because it's on a smaller plot of land and water slides have terrible capacity. If the dry side is spending the majority of the season virtually abandoned, it means the park is not doing well. I feel like I'm stating the obvious here. It's not like Holiday World where the sides are more even and the dry side is relatively small, they have a lot of huge rides running all day long soaking up money and if people aren't riding them then they're just bleeding revenue.

 

As for "the flat rides always have lines", A) again, most of the flat rides are clustered around a relatively small area of the park and it doesn't take as many people for them to have a line, possibly giving the impression that's where most of the people are at, and B) you're telling me that for some reason, a higher percentage of DP's clientele go to the park to do nothing but ride flat rides. I am telling you, that defies common sense. It's not Knoebels or the local state fair. Dorney does not market its flat rides, it markets the coasters and the water park. That's what most people are there for, same as any other park.

Edited June 27, 2014 by neil009

[A.J.]

If it's any consolation, when I went in August of last year every single coaster was at least a four-load wait with Talon as the exception which was about twenty-five minutes.

[neil009]

^No no, you must have been imagining things, every ride is a walk-on all day every day. Which is fine because everybody's just there for the water park. They just need to add a couple more boomerangs, they'll be fine. *eye twitches*

[jzoole]

I think it's also worth at least a mention that Dorney has some pretty high capacity coasters for a park of it's size/attendance level, which may at least contribute somewhat to the short wait times for its big coasters.

[coasterbill]

If the dry side is spending the majority of the season virtually abandoned, it means the park is not doing well.

 

I said the coasters don't have lines, I didn't say that the dry side was abandoned... but the park is clearly doing fine because all that matters is how many people they bring in, not what they do once they get in the park.

 

I agree that the coasters have great capacity (well the popular coasters do) but the same coasters with the same capacity in parks that are more focused on coasters and bring in more people can see some really long lines.

 

This debate is really at a stand still. Let's just wait and see if the park adds an expensive coaster soon. As my original argument states if the park thought it was a good investment they would have added one at some point but they haven't since 2005.

 

I really hope you're right... I just don't see it. The only way I see them adding a large coaster is if they decide they want to bring the park up to a level that can compete with Six Flags and Hershey and attract new markets. I don't think it's going to work because I think they tried that with the big B&M investments just a few years apart from eachother but with a new CEO maybe they'll try again... I doubt it though. They seem happy with the market they have and they can maintain that by doing what they've been doing for almost a decade.

[neil009]

^I'm just not sure what's giving you the impression they're bringing in the number of people a park of its size should be bringing in to remain successful. Are you counting the cars in the parking lot? Most people accept queue length as a good indicator of crowd size.

[coasterbill]

^I'm just not sure what's giving you the impression they're bringing in the number of people a park of its size should be bringing in to remain successful. Are you counting the cars in the parking lot? Most people accept queue length as a good indicator of crowd size.

 

Because I don't notice any difference between this year or any other year in the last 20 years. I am basing that on one visit but when we visited on Memorial Day this year they were even using the overflow parking lot which I've never seen but the coasters were all just 5 -10 minute waits which is the longest I've ever seen them (though the waterpark was closing for the day by the time we pulled in). We visited 4 or 5 times last year and the crowds were pretty standard. It's not like there's an obvious decline in attendance.

[IronWolfman]

I think even 5-10 minutes are good signs for parks when it comes to major coasters, because that means that the trains are at least sending out full trains and are running at full capacity.

[A.J.]

I think even 5-10 minutes are good signs for parks when it comes to major coasters, because that means that the trains are at least sending out full trains and are running at full capacity.

I agree with this - if Dorney would be sending empty trains all the time or waiting ungodly amounts of time for more people before dispatching a train, I would say that they're in trouble. But every train I saw during my visit was filled to at least almost full capacity, which means that the coasters were getting plenty of riders regardless of the apparent length of the queue.

[ScreaminNewEngland]

Any update on stinger?

[thrillseeker4552]

I think even 5-10 minutes are good signs for parks when it comes to major coasters, because that means that the trains are at least sending out full trains and are running at full capacity.

I agree with this - if Dorney would be sending empty trains all the time or waiting ungodly amounts of time for more people before dispatching a train, I would say that they're in trouble. But every train I saw during my visit was filled to at least almost full capacity, which means that the coasters were getting plenty of riders regardless of the apparent length of the queue.

 

That's how I feel about the Calico Mine Ride at Knott's. It's one of the most popular rides in the park, but it almost never has a line because it's a capacity beast.