BotanicalStig Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Can someone site some examples as to why the new style track is superior? Just because it is new doesn't necessarily make it better. Also curious. Plenty of rides with a similar track design run perfectly smooth and comfortable. Gemini, Tennessee Tornado, Magnum, etc. etc. Just because most arrow loopers are terrible doesn't mean that you can't make a good ride with that track style. I see what you mean about it being weird they aren't using their newer design, but I really doubt it will affect the ride quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piedude81 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I know this a little off the topic of your "track style superiority" debate, but what do you guys expect to see happening to T2? If Ed does end up keeping it, I can't imagine he won't purchase some of the new SLC trains (http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w293/tonygeardguinan/walibiworld180907049wi4Small.jpg) While I think a suspended coaster is a great fit to the park, I would disagree that T2 is the right coaster to fit that role. If anything, I wouldn't mind seeing a B&M inverted ride going up, but I doubt that. Considering the history of the park, we'll probably end up getting a refurb of T2 or something from someone that we've never seen before. Thoughts on what the new addition will bring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrillseeker4552 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 ^ It was confirmed quite a while ago that it will receive new trains and paint and will re-open in 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piedude81 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 ^ It was confirmed quite a while ago that it will receive new trains and paint and will re-open in 2015. Oh. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midgetman82 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Morgan developed the new track for Steel Dragon 2000 that is superior to the old design, and the original Chance Hyperlite was shown with that track, and then they are building this with the old track style. For a company that has not built a ride in so long you would think they would bring out some new technology given the chance. It dosen't really matter if they have improved their skills at shaping the track, the outside design is still superior when designing wheel bogies. --- Inside wheel steel track is outdated, and outside wheel track is far superior. You have all the right to argue that the new track system is "far superior" than the old, but hammering it multiple times in one post doesn't really get the point through as to "why" you say it is superior. Your mention of Vekoma was a start: Vekoma don't build the old track style anymore, unless someone buys an standard SLC, Boomerang or Mine Train, but I would suspect that they are also moving away from the old track style in their future Mine Train coasters. I do see your point considering Vekoma's latest mine trains, even though they have a very close partnership with Disney and they basically do exactly what they tell them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trj820 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Morgan developed the new track for Steel Dragon 2000 that is superior to the old design, and the original Chance Hyperlite was shown with that track, and then they are building this with the old track style. For a company that has not built a ride in so long you would think they would bring out some new technology given the chance. It dosen't really matter if they have improved their skills at shaping the track, the outside design is still superior when designing wheel bogies. --- Inside wheel steel track is outdated, and outside wheel track is far superior. You have all the right to argue that the new track system is "far superior" than the old, but hammering it multiple times in one post doesn't really get the point through as to "why" you say it is superior. Your mention of Vekoma was a start: Vekoma don't build the old track style anymore, unless someone buys an standard SLC, Boomerang or Mine Train, but I would suspect that they are also moving away from the old track style in their future Mine Train coasters. I do see your point considering Vekoma's latest mine trains, even though they have a very close partnership with Disney and they basically do exactly what they tell them to. But mounts their trains on the inside... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jew Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I didn't realize we had so many structural engineers on TPR! We won't be able to judge how the ride ages until it…you know, actually ages. So it's kind of a moot point at this time. I'm still just happy/surprised the park even made it to the point they are adding a new coaster in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerstlaueringvar Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Maybe by superior, he means the new track style saves more metal on the ties and you don't feel being hugged inside of the track. Train's position are higher on the new track style so the view is better. But for a ride as compact as Lightning Run, maybe lowering the train would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudvayneimn Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 You're gonna have a nice cuddle fest with all 2,500 feet of that outdated inside-wheel track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamondbacker27 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I can't see the pictures * Crys****** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfc Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I didn't realize we had so many structural engineers on TPR! We won't be able to judge how the ride ages until it…you know, actually ages. So it's kind of a moot point at this time. I'm still just happy/surprised the park even made it to the point they are adding a new coaster in the first place. Exactly. Let's wait a few years after the ride is actually built before judging whether or not it's "aged well." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPmillenia94 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 If anyone needs an example of how this will track look to phantoms revenge. As far as I know that tracks incredibly well. The track is wider and the trains sit lower than coasters with the wheels on the outside so expect it to feel VERY smooth and controlled, even more so than your typical steel track. Thinking back to every arrow and vekoma I've ridden I can hardly notice when it starts moving in the station because they track so smoothly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamondbacker27 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Let's hope it's nothing like Adventure Express. That things about gives you whip lash when it pulls out of the station... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_koppen Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Can someone site some examples as to why the new style track is superior? Just because it is new doesn't necessarily make it better. I'd love to explain, without trying to get to much detailed! It's not really the track that is superior, as much as the way you can design the wheel assembles around the two different tracks. Sure there are some small factors that play in with the track, for an example the inside wheel track is much harder to build and get 100% perfect, as opposed to track that use outside wheels. Also the track with inner wheels can in some unique cases move a few millimeters during the years of operations, because it have been under supported by the ties, but that is not something that should be any concern nowadays. When it comes down to the wheel assembles outside wheels is the "natural" way to build a wheel assembly, and have the bogies "grip" the train on the outside of the track. Wheel boogies on the inside can be view as the "unnatural" way of placing them, as the guide wheels don't have to grip the track, they have to "push" outward against it in order to make the train stay on the track, a way that is not as effective as the outward way, if you are looking to build a smooth ride. Schwarzkopf have to be seen as the pioneer in this,as he discovered it very early. That is the first (and most importantly) way of the two designs. Inside wheels also cause more friction as opposed to outside wheels, that is why you can always find space between the track and wheels on rides who uses this method. It is also the reason two why new trains from Vekoma on a new ride still dosen't grip the track completely, even though it's brad new with brad new wheels. The result from this is that a coaster with outside track design that is rough starts to rattle, while a inside track starts to get small, fast movements from side to side. If you watch a fixed camera POV of Phantom's Revenge, Balder or Outlaw Run you can see what I mean. It's usually only present in curves and transitions. Companies like Intamin and RMC have been very successful in making their wooden rides very smooth, thanks to complicated train bogies, but still you can never reach that "baby ass" smoothness that is achieved by companies like B&M and Mack. For steel coasters there just isn't any reason to use inside wheel track anymore, as it is much easier to design an outside bogie with smooth ride as a result. Tennessee Tornado and the Morgan hypers track amazingly and they use inside rails. I think more then just the style of track goes into how well a ride tracks from how well the pieces are welded together to how the layout is designed. Like you mentioned how well the arrows tracked. Well majority of those were designed by drawing on the shop floor a bent to the shape. Well before the use of computer aided systems designing the layouts. Track amazingly means baby ass smooth, or regular smooth? And just as you say, it's how well the track is welded together that makes for a smooth ride, and that is harder on track that uses and inside wheel design. Other then it being your own opinion where is the research on whether one is far more superior then the other design. To me this like trying to argue to why Intamin still uses the lattice track and over the new spine track they developed. I'm sure there's a reason why they chose this style over the other and unless your apart of the design team between KK and Chance we may never know. I never argue based on my opinions, I always argue from what I have learnt the last 10 years, from speaking to ride designers, parks technical workers as well as articles and interviews with manufacturers and people in the amusement industry. I love to discuss things with an opened mind though, so please keep posting your thoughts. Also the example of the Intamin track dosen't really fit in the discussion, as it have nothing to do with how the coaster actually rides. A few reasons I could think of to why they are not using the new track would be that it may have a longer delivery time or it may save them some money no to use it or anything really. Not knowing drives me nuts for some reason, and I will probably never know as well. I didn't realize we had so many structural engineers on TPR! Well I'm not there yet, but I'm on a good way We won't be able to judge how the ride ages until it…you know, actually ages. That's right, it will still deliver a very smoothish ride, I'm sure, but it's just that I doubt that it can ever reach that ultra smooth experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COASTER FREAK 11 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Ok, more then half of this seems like non-sense... If it were so difficult, bad, and 'unnatural' then why would a company make it? They wouldn't, but they still are....so I really doubt any of this is at all accurate. Sorry, I just don't buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coasterbill Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Track amazingly means baby A$$ smooth, or regular smooth? In the case of Tennessee Tornado, baby A$$ smooth. I refuse to believe arrow built that ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lareson Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 And that'll be why I try to not get into the technical stuff anymore, but will anyways. I can give you examples too on the train's design and not the track design that can cause a ride to be "rough." I'll give you one that I know really well. A Vekoma SLC. They all have a bad reputations for being a rough ride, head banging and such. It has nothing to do with the gapping in between the wheels and track, as much as people think it is, as the train mainly stays on the road wheels and hardly ever goes on the unstop wheels, at least in the terms of the SLC. Vekoma in the standard SLC train design, the seats are supported by a single steel support with 2 dampening pistons attached to the support and chassis. That would be where the fault is in the old train design. If you've ever seen an SLC train run without people in it, you'd see that they have a tendency to shake quite a bit. Depending on the age, wear and pressure of those pistons, they can cause the seats to shake quite a bit, which causes the head banging and the general rough ride. Some of the later SLC trains of the old design had gone through several revisions and adjustments and have actually resulted in SLCs becoming quite a different ride. I'll give you Thunderhawk at Michigan's Adventure. Relocated from Geauga Lake, from people that rode the coaster when it was there, said it was the average SLC, head banging and not smooth. When it was relocated to Michigan's Adventure, the track stayed the same, but the trains were sent to Vekoma for refurbishing. The people that have rode it when it was at Geauga Lake and then rode it later at Michigan's Adventure has shown a completely different ride. I even heard people say that it was the smoothest SLC that they've ever rode. What had happened when Vekoma refurbished the trains, they put a bit more stiffer dampening pistons, resulting in the seats shaking less and resulting in a much smoother ride, even after 5 years from being built. Now I participated in Coasting for Kids on Thunderhawk last year for nearly 40+ rides and the only issue I had was getting dizzy for spinning around upside down over 200 times. I never in any way thought it was rough or had any head banging. Now there can also be an example of where the track is at fault, but that's because of the old manufacturing techniques, not because of the design. Now that everything is now calculated so precisely and the track is made in a factory in pieces versus being built on site with the track being bent on the structure, track design really doesn't matter that much anymore. I have a friend who is an engineer and has wrote a book all about the engineering that goes into a roller coaster, so most of what I stated is from him. In a majority of cases, the train is the reason why a steel coaster is rough, not the track. Iron Wolf/Apocalypse and Vortex, B&M's first coasters, these are known to be the roughest B&M coasters ever built, mainly the train design is at fault with those, since they used the old Giovanola stand-up train design with a bit of modification, but after those, they started designing their own trains and soon enough, B&M is now synonym for smooth. Alright, that's over now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrygator Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Can someone site some examples as to why the new style track is superior? Just because it is new doesn't necessarily make it better. I'd love to explain, without trying to get to much detailed! It's not really the track that is superior. EXACTLY the point gisco was pointing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdogg68 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Everyone needs to stop bitching about the Track Style, you haven't been there and Done that yet! Who Really Cares About The Track Style, no One But YOU! In The End, it will matter how the Coaster Rides and what People think about it. Stop Complaining about single spine, double spine or whatever it may be. Just sit back and enjoy your ride on it, that's what matters in the end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_koppen Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 And that'll be why I try to not get into the technical stuff anymore, but will anyways. I can give you examples too on the train's design and not the track design that can cause a ride to be "rough." I'll give you one that I know really well. A Vekoma SLC. They all have a bad reputations for being a rough ride, head banging and such. It has nothing to do with the gapping in between the wheels and track, as much as people think it is, as the train mainly stays on the road wheels and hardly ever goes on the unstop wheels, at least in the terms of the SLC. Vekoma in the standard SLC train design, the seats are supported by a single steel support with 2 dampening pistons attached to the support and chassis. That would be where the fault is in the old train design. If you've ever seen an SLC train run without people in it, you'd see that they have a tendency to shake quite a bit. Depending on the age, wear and pressure of those pistons, they can cause the seats to shake quite a bit, which causes the head banging and the general rough ride. Some of the later SLC trains of the old design had gone through several revisions and adjustments and have actually resulted in SLCs becoming quite a different ride. I'll give you Thunderhawk at Michigan's Adventure. Relocated from Geauga Lake, from people that rode the coaster when it was there, said it was the average SLC, head banging and not smooth. When it was relocated to Michigan's Adventure, the track stayed the same, but the trains were sent to Vekoma for refurbishing. The people that have rode it when it was at Geauga Lake and then rode it later at Michigan's Adventure has shown a completely different ride. I even heard people say that it was the smoothest SLC that they've ever rode. What had happened when Vekoma refurbished the trains, they put a bit more stiffer dampening pistons, resulting in the seats shaking less and resulting in a much smoother ride, even after 5 years from being built. Now I participated in Coasting for Kids on Thunderhawk last year for nearly 40+ rides and the only issue I had was getting dizzy for spinning around upside down over 200 times. I never in any way thought it was rough or had any head banging. Now there can also be an example of where the track is at fault, but that's because of the old manufacturing techniques, not because of the design. Now that everything is now calculated so precisely and the track is made in a factory in pieces versus being built on site with the track being bent on the structure, track design really doesn't matter that much anymore. I have a friend who is an engineer and has wrote a book all about the engineering that goes into a roller coaster, so most of what I stated is from him. In a majority of cases, the train is the reason why a steel coaster is rough, not the track. Iron Wolf/Apocalypse and Vortex, B&M's first coasters, these are known to be the roughest B&M coasters ever built, mainly the train design is at fault with those, since they used the old Giovanola stand-up train design with a bit of modification, but after those, they started designing their own trains and soon enough, B&M is now synonym for smooth. Alright, that's over now. Thank you for a very informative and interesting read, loved it! I felt like I should stay at the wheel bogies in my post, as going on and speak of the trains as well would probably have been to much. Everyone needs to stop bitching about the Track Style, you haven't been there and Done that yet! Who Really Cares About The Track Style, no One But YOU! In The End, it will matter how the Coaster Rides and what People think about it. Stop Complaining about single spine, double spine or whatever it may be. Just sit back and enjoy your ride on it, that's what matters in the end! Well if you don't wan't to discuss it, nobody is forcing you, but this is a forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarheel1231 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Can we stop complaining and arguing over which track is better? Please, just stop. Anyways, here is an update on the construction going on at Kentucky Kingdom: Read Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palmerleeberry Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 While everyone was complaining about the tracks, nobody even had a chance to answer my little quiz when I was singing about how T2 doesn't look like it's isolated anymore "Take this space between use and fill it up someway . . ." That line is a from the song "Oh My God" from the Police. And since nobody answered it, I guess I'll keep the prize for myself - a free ride on the Roller Skater!!! ROLLER SKATER - TAKE A RIDE AROUND OUR RINK!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatdan Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 If you've ever seen an SLC train run without people in it, you'd see that they have a tendency to shake quite a bit. This is true of just about anything running empty. I know of at least a couple B&Ms that if you were to ride with no people on them, you'd be surprised just how jittery they become. In order for the train to track properly, you need the weight from the riders also on the ride. Now there can also be an example of where the track is at fault, but that's because of the old manufacturing techniques, not because of the design. Now that everything is now calculated so precisely and the track is made in a factory in pieces versus being built on site with the track being bent on the structure, track design really doesn't matter that much anymore. To be totally fair, the old design is at fault in ways too. I mentioned this recently somewhere else - most Arrow rides that go into corkscrews enter in the 'wrong' way to keep forces downward and not side-to-side. Since the rides put forces in the wrong spot, they cause a sort of forced shuffling at those spots in the track. I know of at least one Arrow ride that was greatly smoothed out by changing the angles that the train traveled through a few sections of the track. Track was removed, redesigned, and replaced in a way to lessen the side-to-side forces, and it resulted in "fixing" those spots considerably. Unfortunately, the cost to redo an entire ride is cost prohibitive, but inside wheel designs can definitely be done in a smart, smooth way if they want to do so. This thing I expect to track and ride absolutely fine, as the issues that the old track has had are pretty much gone. I think the change is mostly due to the fact that I believe (although am not sure)that an inside design saves steel costs, and therefore fabrication costs too, but I have no doubt that LR is going to be epic for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midgetman82 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 ^^^The first few photos look like they were either taken with a really old camera, or things just aren't cleaned up enough yet on a cloudy day (... yup, the latter). Anyways, nice to see things other than the major happenings. And props to the photographer for getting a UPS jet flying over in one photo (something I've been trying myself ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamondbacker27 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Updates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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