justint87 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Concerning the liability thing with the guests helping. I don't see a problem with that because for all they know, the driver could have been seriously injured and needed help immediately. Its easy to say things now knowing that the driver was killed but at that moment in time, you act on instincts. If the driver wasn't killed on impact (assuming he did) and a video showed up showing cast members telling guests to get away who were trying to help the driver get out and the driver later died because he wasn't rescued on time, think about how bad that would look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pupkick Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Understood.. but given that there was someone kind enough to not help and take pictures... not that much of a stretch to see someone suing because his hand got maimed on broken fiberglass as he was floundering about in the way and joebob friend knocked him into it, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natatomic Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 ^^I think he was telling the guy with the camera to get away mostly. But also - if a guest got injured/killed while trying to help out in a situation like that, it'd only hurt the company even more because then people would ask, "Why did the employees let a guest anywhere near the accident?!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyV Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Concerning the liability thing with the guests helping. I don't see a problem with that because for all they know, the driver could have been seriously injured and needed help immediately. Its easy to say things now knowing that the driver was killed but at that moment in time, you act on instincts. And what do you think we'd be talking about if the damage to the monorails resulted in some of the 600 DC volts from the pick up rail somehow finding it's way to the parts of the cab those people were touching? Sometimes instinct can get you killed. Without knowing what the state of the environment is around the accident, you can't just rush in there and expect to be a hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebl Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Honestly, the best thing to do in a situation like this is to get people away as quickly as possible. Many people want to help, but not everyone knows CPR and/or other techniques to treat someone who's injured. Better to let the pros take care of that. As for the electricity, I'd guess that the system would be powered down ASAP, though I don't know how long it actually takes. And, of course, some electricity may be "stored" within the motors or vehicle before it can be discharged (the same way that you can pick up static electricity from walking on a carpet). As Kim Pedersen always says on his site, The Monorail Society (a great site, by the way), monorails are safe and efficient transportation. It is too bad that there aren't more of them in major U.S. cities. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justint87 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 And what do you think we'd be talking about if the damage to the monorails resulted in some of the 600 DC volts from the pick up rail somehow finding it's way to the parts of the cab those people were touching? Sometimes instinct can get you killed. Without knowing what the state of the environment is around the accident, you can't just rush in there and expect to be a hero. In no way am I saying there is no risk involved. You knowingly assume all risk when trying to help someone. However, same goes for a car accident. Knowing that a car hit another car and people witness it, people are going to check to make sure the occupants are alright. It was a similar situation here. You have to survey your surrounding and from the look of the video, the guests could tell (only from the exterior) that it was a train that hit another and there could be someone injured in there. They just wanted to help. Now I'm not saying that what they did was right or wrong. This is just from my observations of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagauloise Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Not sure what role this plays, or how much cast members may be aware, but, in a strange twist of the law, you can walk away from a dying person (example, drowning child), even though you could have (morally, should have) helped, and not be held liable. BUT IF you choose to help (i.e., guests in this situation) and you cause more harm to the person, or if you start to help and then leave, you can be held liable (for example, you pull the child out of the water, but don't give proper CPR). Basically, once you get involved in that kind of situation, there can be legal ramifications, whereas there are none if you don't get involved or help. I don't know if that plays any role here in what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbalvey Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 Honestly, the best thing to do in a situation like this is to get people away as quickly as possible. Many people want to help, but not everyone knows CPR and/or other techniques to treat someone who's injured. Better to let the pros take care of that. Agreed. And I just want to make sure I was clear with my comments that I wasn't suggesting that the guests should stick around and help out, but more than the cameraman of that video seemed to be only interested in his own personal gain and not a care about the danger that lives around him could be in. There is plenty that you could be doing to help that isn't directly assisting in the actual accident. For example, it saddens me that the Cast Member actually take his attention off of the accident and direct his attention to shoo the cameraman out of the area. I agree that guests should NOT be directly helping with actual site of the crash, but they could be helping EACH OTHER in a case like this. For example, would it have really hurt anyone for the adults to take the kids aside and comfort them? --Robb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyV Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 As for the electricity, I'd guess that the system would be powered down ASAP, though I don't know how long it actually takes. And, of course, some electricity may be "stored" within the motors or vehicle before it can be discharged (the same way that you can pick up static electricity from walking on a carpet). The video or one of the pictures (haven't looked since this morning) show the buttons by the door of monorail purple still lit after the accident, so there was still power to the train. That AC power for the lights and AC is picked up from the DC rail. A later picture showed the buttons were dark, but I don't know why that would be -- I'm just an observer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pupkick Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I don't know if that plays any role here in what happened. I would all but bet the farm that legal ramifications weren't why certain people chose not to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennyweird Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 There needs to be some kind of an investigation, sure, don't get me wrong, and hopefully there will be some sort of finding that can be fixed, of course, but I'm not sure I think that it could get any safer or if major changes are needed. I guess that's what I was trying to say. They just need to make sure that this type of accident isn't likely to happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyV Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 You have to survey your surrounding and from the look of the video, the guests could tell (only from the exterior) that it was a train that hit another and there could be someone injured in there. They just wanted to help. Don't disagree with you. Unfortunately, in the heat of the moment, most people wouldn't stop to think about what they are about to do even if they are trying to help. I give the people who at least showed the concern for the pilot a lot of credit and I'm thankful nobody else was injured either in the collision or afterward trying to help out. As for the guy shooting the video, well, he's got his own demons to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allena.k.a.Alan Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 OMG! This is tragic news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justint87 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I agree with everyone here about the cameraman. I remember the first time I watched it, I was surprised at how after he was told no cameras were allowed, he kept filming. Then when he was told to leave because he continued to film, he just left very nonchalantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbalvey Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 I give the people who at least showed the concern for the pilot a lot of credit. "Showed concern" That's really it right there. I mean, I think it's totally reasonable to think that the cast member would try to clear the area of people trying to help because they are concerned about the well being of others. And as much as people may want to help, it's just not safe for people to do so. But when the cast member has to clear the area because some dude wants the scoop on TMZ, that's just really pathetic. The fact that the video actually exists in the first place is what frustrates me with human behavior. It would have been one thing had the video been of the actual crash by some random guest who just happened to be filming at that time and caught it on tape, but this video had a specific purpose behind it and it was created without a care in the world of any of the events surrounding the cameraman. That cameraman saw what just happened and *THEN* decided "I'm going to turn on my camera and get this on the news." That was his immediate reaction! It wasn't to try to help. It wasn't to show concern for those who could be injured. It was to feed his personal (and probably financial) gain by glamorizing the tragedy. IMO, that's just really lame. --Robb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GatorChris Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (Post removed by user) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astroworldfan1 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I wonder how fast (mph) the colliding monorail was traveling? I can't really look at those pictures...They're too sad to look at. My friend and I were just having a conversation about the WDW monorail last night. Who knew that would ever happen at the "Happiest Place on Earth"? -Tatum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbalvey Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 ^^ NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE OTHER PEOPLE ARE DOING!!! WE ARE DISCUSSING THE CAMERAMAN!!!! --Robb "Stop turning everything into an argument! We're all sick of it..." Alvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not For Sale Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I wonder how fast (mph) the colliding monorail was traveling? 15 MPH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Clinksalot Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I didn't see this posted here yet, if it was forgive me. YouTube video of a former Monorail Pilot explaining exactly what he believes happened. I'm guessing this is what actually happened, but until there is news from an official source, I don't want to fuel speculation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QBZ_S7iAHU There isn't any audio, for some reason the explanation just scrolls across the bottom of the screen, but you can still get the explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyV Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 That cameraman saw what just happened and *THEN* decided "I'm going to turn on my camera and get this on the news." That was his immediate reaction! It wasn't to try to help. It wasn't to show concern for those who could be injured. It was to feed his personal (and probably financial) gain by glamorizing the tragedy. I'm right there with you, Robb. Unfortunately, and we all know it, that same lack of concern for anyone else goes well beyond this tragedy. Makes you wonder what kind of world our kids will end up, but that's an entirely different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyV Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 The vid Sir Clinksalot posted is the most plausible explanation. For what I understand about monorail operations, it sounds like Central screwed up badly. It sonds like they gave the approval for pink to proceed backwards into an occupied concourse. Does anyone know if monorail communications are recorded and/or if there is data logging on the trains? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ethans_dad06 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 If you didn't notice there were NO reports whatsoever of the driver sending text messages when the crash happened. You know I think that is a pretty crappy assumption when you have not a clue what really happened. Have some respect for the cast member and the family of the cast member who lost his life in this horrible accident. I'm just pointing out the obvious: Humans suck at operating machines. Computers do it better! If you think I'm dancing on graves, you've figured me wrong. Bring on Skynet! First of all, humans do not suck at operating machines. I am a heavy equipment operator by trade and can tell you that computers can NEVER be as safe as humans because computers can't think for their own when an unexpected hazard occurs, but humans can. I can't remeber how many times I've been in a situation where I had to make life or death decisions running equipment because the unexpected happened and I assure you a computer cannot make those types of decisions the way a human can. And I never said you were dancing on graves, but when you start making assumptions about situations and people that you couldn't pretend to know, it just leads me to believe that you think the person operating the monorail is neglegent and careless, which obviously is not the case here. If I was related to or a friend of the young man who tragically died in this accident, I would be very offended by your remarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astroworldfan1 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Does anyone know if monorail communications are recorded and/or if there is data logging on the trains? Too bad each monorail isn't equipped with a black box like air planes. -Tatum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptorcrew2002 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I had a chat with some current and past op friends. Because yes the Mapo would have e-stopped... Only way we could see this happening Pink might have broken down and cleared into station, then pink would have gone into mapo over ride with limited visibility and if newer might not have been using the mirrors as your supposed to in reverse., etc. Subtract radios which they probably didn't have... Platform not looking for a train coming in backwards (Would also be why no one cut power, aka e-stop) Night time with highly limited visibility already... Maximum speed @ station is 15 mph. But 2 objects of movement would make sense for the volume of damage. Bad feeling this is going to fall on Monorail Central CM part of the issue as others are also thinking. I feel horrible for the family and those who had to see this and this guys friends and family. Poor guy he didn't have a chance, and it should not have happened. Simply speculation, rumor, please take with a grain of salt, but the scenario other then huge massive failures (I mean massive like driver passed out, mapo system failed, Central lost power, the works all at the same time...) leads to this type of direction. * For the needs more computers crowd.. Even more automation would still require bypasses. Human judgment calls and corrections save so many people every day. Human factor cannot be removed. As for the cameraman, you really cannot get much lower in life during a tragic event of any form. @ astroworldfan1 WDW Monorails do have data recorders on monorails. I'm sure DL does too, not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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