Six Flags Great America (SFGAm) Discussion Thread

[Goooose]

My final contribution to this discussion tonight is to address the structural changes. To those of you upset that the structure is not traditional wood, and that it'll somehow lose some novelty, consider this: No wooden coaster on earth has a structure like this. Only two steel coasters I can think of have a relatable lift structure, Skyrush and Intimidator, Millenium force maybe, but even those are missing some qualities that make this totally unique. The lift is going to look like an old iron railroad bridge, and the supporting arch in the middle is a zero G STALL... that will leave you upside down for 3 seconds. You'll essentially be riding the inside of a floater hill. That's never happened before either.

 

FINALLY, nobody seems to have brought this up so I will. Refer back to the renderings to see for yourself: That giant, boxy steel structure supporting the zero g stall is NOT directly above the track. Between the two main lift towers, there is only 5 or 6 pieces of steel from which the wooden track will be connected. The track will literally be hanging off the side of the support structure. Take a look at the aerial views and the picture of the first drop from behind the overbank/twist and shout. The supporting archway will be directly under the lift, and the track is running alongside it. This is unprecedented. You can say, okay, there is B&M track that runs a hundred feet before passing another support, but steel track is all one piece. Wood track, even when prefab, is made of hundreds of separate pieces. It will be safe and structurally sound, but the illusion of danger is far greater in this case than if this were to be steel. Because of that added fear tactic, yes, my opinion is that the new structural renderings really DO improve the ride.

[Dr. M]

If anybody has ever disputed whether or not Goliath is wooden, it's due to the construction of the track and the wheels. I don't believe we've ever had a topper track coaster with polyurethane wheels before. That's the difference between this and Outlaw Run.

 

All of the Intamin coasters have polyurethane wheels. So does a GCI coaster over in Germany. So there isn't really a wheel argument to be made IMO. Outlaw Run will probably be a bit more out of control feeling, but I think this coaster is going to move through the track so fast that you'll never notice the difference.

 

I know I don't need to point this out, but prefabs have traditional track save for how it's manufactured, that's why their status isn't contested despite the wheels. On an RMC it's one less thing it has in common with normal wooden coasters, so for some that might be the line in the sand.

 

Are the wheels even going to be touching wood, at any point? Or is it seriously polyurethane wheels running on a thick cement-filled steel beam that happens to be mounted on several layers of wood? If that's the case, then you'd have to be crazy not to admit there's an argument to be made. I'm not even making it, I'm just saying it's there.

 

No wheels on any wooden roller coaster ever touch the wood. All traditional wooden tracked coasters run on a thin steel rail attached to a wooden running board, but the wheels never come into contact with the wood.

 

The upstop wheels run along wood, don't they? If you think about the rails themselves, what's between the upstop wheels and the, er, wheels on top, then on traditional coasters it's wood, with a thin layer of steel. On RMCs, it's 100% steel. Am I wrong about any of this?

[coasterfreak101]

^It's normally seven layers of wood, but RMC's approach is five layers of wood topped by a piece of steel instead of those last two, then the normal running strip is laid above that.

[Dr. M]

^I don't think you quite get what I'm saying.

 

 

Look at what the wheels are running along. All of those layers of wood do not go between the up-stop wheels and the running wheels. In fact, the only thing any of the wheels are touching, is that red steel beam.

 

 

See? Harder to tell because the steel in this case is brown instead of red.

 

Now look at normal wooden coaster track:

 

 

The rails are wooden, the up-stop wheels are running along wood the entire time. Even if there's another thin strip of metal under the rails that we can't see, those are wooden beams between the sets of wheels, that's what the track is made out of, that's what the train is running along.

 

Get the difference? You can call topper track wooden, but the rails, what the train is actually running on, are completely steel. Now am I missing something here? Isn't what the rails are made out of more important than what's sitting beneath the rails? That's the only thing the train actually touches. Regardless, the track is literally just as much steel as it is wood. That's why they're able to do inversions with it. As it's been said before, there is no governing body determining what coaster is wood and what is steel. If somebody looks at Goliath and says, "Well, polyurethane wheels running along steel rails... with a dive loop (!)... yeah, I'm pretty sure that's a steel coaster," how could you possibly argue with them?

 

"This highway is a dirt road!"

"What are you talking about? It's completely paved!"

"Yeah, but there's dirt beneath the pavement!"

 

Unless I'm completely wrong about something. Again, feel free to correct me, I'm no expert.

 

Bringing this up is unnecessary, but, make that red steel beam circular instead of flat, remove the pieces of wood (which the train never touches), and what do you get?

 

 

And it'd still be pretty rough and out-of-control feeling, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Dr. M

[coasterkyle]

On Mean Streak at least the up stops and guide wheels run on a small strip of steel just like the road wheels do.

[Dr. M]

^And as I said, it doesn't matter, because underneath that thin strip of metal is a piece of wood. The rails are wooden. The rails on topper track are not pieces of wood covered in thin strips of steel. They are completely steel (and concrete). The point isn't what the wheels are literally touching, it's what is holding the train in the air. Normal wood coaster track= big piece of wood, topper track= big piece of steel.

[coasterbill]

Obviously there's a grey area here, but personally I love it. We're living in a really exciting time for coasters right now because for the first time ever the 2 types of coasters that have been very strictly defined for over half a century are merging together to make insane, modern, super-intense rides.

 

I'm not sure why people are so up-in-arms about it. The only thing I can think of is that they're worried about their favorite wood coasters getting beaten in the wood coaster polls by coasters they don't think belong in those polls. I'm citing this as the reason because it's the only thing that makes any sense. If it's not for the sake of "fair polling" then there's no reason why anyone would care if a coaster is wood or steel.

 

But if that's really your concern, it doesn't make any sense UNLESS you think steel coasters are better than wood coasters and wood coasters need some type of handicap. My prediction is that as wood and steel become less defined it will become less and less about best wood coaster polls and best steel coaster polls and more about best overall coaster polls... and I don't see why that's necessarily a bad thing. Sure it's change, but change isn't always bad... in this case it's exciting.

[thedirtyspaniard]

^And as I said, it doesn't matter, because underneath that thin strip of metal is a piece of wood. The rails are wooden. The rails on topper track are not pieces of wood covered in thin strips of steel. They are completely steel (and concrete). The point isn't what the wheels are literally touching, it's what is holding the train in the air. Normal wood coaster track= big piece of wood, topper track= big piece of steel.

Don't want to be a negative Nancy here -- but if you'd like to consider that which "holds the train in the air", you should also include the wooden spine of the track as well as the wooden supports of the ride, as well as all of the nuts and bolts that hold all of that together. Oh and the concrete footers as well. And we know what's going to happen if we start discussing supports.

 

A reason which I believe justifies the legitimacy of Goliath being considered a wood coaster: The spine of the track is wood. Someone is going to say "yes but the rails are steel and--" Stop, right there. The spine is wood. The spine is attached right below the rails at all points; it is shaped to the exactly same twists, curves, and overall dimensions as the rails. It's actually serving a much larger structural purpose than the steel rails. Same deal on a 'traditional' wood coaster -- just that there is less steel to the rails. Which leads me to my next point.

 

The rails of the coaster are the actual surface the wheels ride on throughout the ride, not what supports it. If I may use a definition from the Merriam-Webster dictionary: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rail

Rail, noun:

3. a : a bar of rolled steel forming a track for wheeled vehicles.

 

If you'd like to think about what rails are on a steel coaster -- they're the surface and relative shape which the wheels directly ride on, not the cross ties; they are the metal tubular rails. On a wooden coaster, the wooden spine, ie layers of wood, is like a set of infinite cross ties, holding the flat steel rails. While they contribute to the ride feel due to their shape and warping over time - the same can be said about any other component of the support structure, such as bents, footers, etc. - just to a smaller extent.

 

I won't say anyone is incorrect or correct in their measures of how they'd like to consider what a wooden coaster is, I just wanted to lay this out from an engineering perspective.

 

Back to the topic at hand:

I wonder if the twist and shout will be completed today/by the end of this week. Also, SFGAm should snap a picture to see how Goliath looks from the parks midways sometime soon.

[boardwalkbullet91507]

^I've never thought about the spine that way. That's a really good point. I just always figured if a traditional wood coaster runs on flat steel on the top, side, and bottom of the rails why should it matter what's in between; steel or more wood, as long as the spine remains steel. The spine seems like the deal breaker. Very interesting point, thanks for sharing that perspective.

 

As for Goliath goes, I'm really excited to see how much faster construction will go now that a large quantity of bents are no longer needed with the A-Frame. (Well, they were never really needed in the first place but we anticipated them). Now it's just going to be an easy installation for the structure and then it's full speed ahead from there. This crew working on Goliath is doing an exemplary job enduring harsh weather conditions yet making significant progress daily.

[Dr. M]

Obviously there's a grey area here, but personally I love it. We're living in a really exciting time for coasters right now because for the first time ever the 2 types of coasters that have been very strictly defined for over half a century are merging together to make insane, modern, super-intense rides.

 

I'm not sure why people are so up-in-arms about it. The only thing I can think of is that they're worried about their favorite wood coasters getting beaten in the wood coaster polls by coasters they don't think belong in those polls. I'm citing this as the reason because it's the only thing that makes any sense. If it's not for the sake of "fair polling" then there's no reason why anyone would care if a coaster is wood or steel.

 

But if that's really your concern, it doesn't make any sense UNLESS you think steel coasters are better than wood coasters and wood coasters need some type of handicap. My prediction is that as wood and steel become less defined it will become less and less about best wood coaster polls and best steel coaster polls and more about best overall coaster polls... and I don't see why that's necessarily a bad thing. Sure it's change, but change isn't always bad... in this case it's exciting.

 

Keep in mind I don't think it matters very much, but here's my reasoning for why it matters at all. The biggest reason is yes, fair polling. Like it or not, the GTA are an important marketing tool for parks both big and small. How can you possibly compare Gold Rusher to a coaster with a dive loop? That's the whole reason for the distinction in the first place. I don't participate in the polls, but I can tell you I certainly wouldn't want to have to make that comparison. It's not that one is better than the other, it's that they're simply not in the same category.

 

The other reason is more abstract. If you're a hard-core wooden coaster fan, but you don't consider these coasters wooden coasters, than seeing all the wood records being claimed by them, seeing so many people name them as their favorite wooden coaster, etc. etc., don't you think that might get pretty irritating? Again, no it's not that important, but the fact remains. I don't think anybody is "up in arms about it", I think it's just irritating when statements like "You can consider it a steel coaster if you want, but it'll still be a wood coaster" are made, as if it's some kind of immutable fact. That's a provocative statement, it's saying my opinion is invalid, and it's also not a reflection of reality. There is room here for both views.

 

A reason which I believe justifies the legitimacy of Goliath being considered a wood coaster: The spine of the track is wood. Someone is going to say "yes but the rails are steel and--" Stop, right there. The spine is wood. The spine is attached right below the rails at all points; it is shaped to the exactly same twists, curves, and overall dimensions as the rails. It's actually serving a much larger structural purpose than the steel rails. Same deal on a 'traditional' wood coaster -- just that there is less steel to the rails. Which leads me to my next point.

 

The role of the large steel rails tends to be downplayed in these kinds of discussions, but is that really true that the spine is serving a much larger structural purpose? The rails in this case aren't only the actual running surface of the train, they're also why the coaster is smoother than traditional wood and will remain smooth over time. They're the reason a more minimal support structure can be used. They're the reason the track can be twisted into more shapes and endure the stress of inversions. This is all because of how much of the track is steel, and yet you're telling me the spine is the most important thing? It may happen to be what the steel rails are sitting on, but I think it's pretty clear the rails are the defining feature of the track. How much would really change if this was an i-box coaster and that spine was metal? Not nearly as much as if the rails were traditional wood, nothing about this design would be possible. So then in a manner of speaking, doesn't this track have more in common with steel track than it does wood, if you go strictly by properties and abilities?

 

The rails of the coaster are the actual surface the wheels ride on throughout the ride, not what supports it. If I may use a definition from the Merriam-Webster dictionary: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rail

Rail, noun:

3. a : a bar of rolled steel forming a track for wheeled vehicles.

 

If you'd like to think about what rails are on a steel coaster -- they're the surface and relative shape which the wheels directly ride on, not the cross ties; they are the metal tubular rails. On a wooden coaster, the wooden spine, ie layers of wood, is like a set of infinite cross ties, holding the flat steel rails. While they contribute to the ride feel due to their shape and warping over time - the same can be said about any other component of the support structure, such as bents, footers, etc. - just to a smaller extent.

 

So what you're saying is the thin strips of metal on a traditional wood coaster actually constitute the "rails", while the wood pieces underneath are just the cross ties. Fair enough, but again approaching this from an engineering perspective, you have to admit that the role of the steel in traditional wood track is very different from the steel in topper track. I can't articulate this very well since I'm not an engineer. But it seems clear to me that those thin metal rails in traditional coaster track only serve to provide a smooth running surface. On topper track, the metal is the only thing between the running wheels and the up-stop wheels. It's what allows the track to be in that shape, it's what keeps the train from flying off into space. It's obviously supplying much more of the actual structure than the steel on traditional wood track.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Dr. M

[DJeXeL]

 

Not sure why any of this matters. Goliath is going to be amazing!

[Dr. M]

^The whole first part of my post was about why it matters.

[DJeXeL]

The way I see it:

 

If you want it to be a wooden coaster, then it is.

If you want it to be a steel coaster, then it is.

If you want it to be a coaster made of Popsicle sticks, then it is.

[Dr. M]

^It's always going to be an issue of "you say tom-a-to, I say to-mah-to", as long as people refrain from acting like these things are set in stone, we won't have a problem. RMC calls it a wood coaster because it's good for business, gives the parks something to market. Fortunately, I am not bound by that same principle and am free to call it as I see it, as are we all.

[Fooz]

Obviously there's a grey area here, but personally I love it. We're living in a really exciting time for coasters right now because for the first time ever the 2 types of coasters that have been very strictly defined for over half a century are merging together to make insane, modern, super-intense rides.

 

I agree with this. Wood/Steel dichotomy is out of touch with the state of material science. Wood is a useful modern material and it's a great move for RMC to use it in a modern way.

[Comeagain?]

I thought RMC was referring to Goliath as a hybrid? Especially since it combines wooden and steel characteristics. It's mostly wooden, but has that awesome looking lift hill that is vey much a steel structure.

[traincrossin]

Is Dr. M still ranting? I think we should listen to him, he is after all a doctor.

[Dr. M]

Damn straight.

 

I'd be the first to admit I get into stuff too deeply sometimes.

[thrillrider]

Just made my plans to go there in July...Can't wait to ride this thing.

[Cameron]

^And as I said, it doesn't matter, because underneath that thin strip of metal is a piece of wood. The rails are wooden. The rails on topper track are not pieces of wood covered in thin strips of steel. They are completely steel (and concrete). The point isn't what the wheels are literally touching, it's what is holding the train in the air. Normal wood coaster track= big piece of wood, topper track= big piece of steel.

 

Well the actual first proper wood coasters - side friction coasters - ran on 100% steel rails. See this picture of the Scenic Railway in Melbourne (Australia), which was built in 1912..

 

 

By your standards then, every non-side-friction wooden coaster isn't traditional and should not have been built

 

Joking aside - this argument is getting a little ridiculous. You don't want to call it a wood coaster? Fine, then don't .. but it seems like you're not going to let anyone change your mind (which is fine), and you're not going to change anyone's mind (also fine). Going round and round in circles over it is a bit silly and subtracts from the big picture: RMC and SFGAm are doing something totally mental and insane and that's awesome. It could be built from ground up kittens and baby seals, and it would still be awesome!

[TPDave]

this argument is getting a little ridiculous.

 

Pretty much

 

The ride looks like it's gong to be kick ass, some people will call it a wood coater and some people won't. I wish them all the best in their decision making while I'm enjoying myself riding!

[Tmcdllr]

this argument is getting a little ridiculous.

 

Pretty much

 

The ride looks like it's gong to be kick A$$, some people will call it a wood coater and some people won't. I wish them all the best in their decision making while I'm enjoying myself riding!

 

Agree 100%.

 

None of that matters. What matters is it's going to be really fun and not turn into a deathtrap!

[Goooose]

Houston, we have more track in place! Also, the track installed yesterday is closer together. Seems like the right rail was hanging a little low yesterday/over night and now everything is perfectly aligned.

[arby]

It could be built from ground up kittens and baby seals, and it would still be awesome!

 

If that happened, then CNN would do a documentary about it (Blackmammal) and we'd have to listen to all the protests about it for 3-6 months. Maybe we can stick to steel and wood?

[traincrossin]

It could be built from ground up kittens and baby seals, and it would still be awesome!

 

If that happened, then CNN would do a documentary about it (Blackmammal) and we'd have to listen to all the protests about it for 3-6 months. Maybe we can stick to steel and wood?

But hey, publicity.