Six Flags [FUN] Corporate Discussion Thread

[robbalvey]

Disney and Universal are far from regional parks. Even so, I'm pretty sure IOA attendance was dropping at a very steady rate until the $200M Harry Potter expansion. To put that price tag in perspective, I'm pretty sure that is higher than all of GADV's coasters COMBINED (probably goes for SFMM, too).

 

No one is saying that Disney and Universal are regional parks. Though, come to think of it, most of Disneyland and USH's attendance comes regionally. But ignoring that for a moment, my point is that people will fill up $300/night motel rooms and pay $90/day for admission for their family in increasing numbers even with increasing expenses while attendance is falling at places like Six Flags that are far cheaper. The sorts of people taking their family to Orlando for a week are probably not the sorts of people who can't also afford a day trip to a regional amusement park if they wanted to. They're just choosing to not go.

1. You are absolutely correct about Disneyland and USH.

 

2. QFT because it's spot on!

[robbalvey]

It seems like as soon as people see the headline "Six Flags Attendance Drops 8%" they just go on to list everything they dislike about Six Flags and chalk the decreasing attendance up to everything they listed. There are a lot of issues with that line of thinking.

What is surprising to me (or really maybe it's not) is that people automatically felt the need post the way they did. Clearly there are some serious issues with the way the parks are being run that triggered this.

 

SeaWorld announced a drop in attendance and that type of reaction didn't happen. Maybe people just like SeaWorld parks better? Maybe Six Flags is really sucking lately?

 

End of the day, the "news" wasn't written in a way that would have made people think about what they dislike, it just sort of "happened." If I were Six Flags I would consider taking a serious look into what caused that.

Edited July 24, 2014 by robbalvey

[parkjunkie]

With being a SF pass holder for 25+ years, I think I can safely say SF is n a lot of trouble right now and its being ignored. I'm not saying its like the Premiere days, god those were awful, but its slowly starting to head down that path. Ive been to 7 SF parks, 3 of them recently (SFSTL being my home park), and they were starting to look good and have better atmospheres, and then in the past 2 years, they seem to be neglected again. SFSTL used to be a top park in the US, then it was neglected for a very long time, then Shapiro came in and things started looking good again, and then the past 2 years came and the park is practically in shambles.... not to mention some of the worst guest service I have seen in years. SFGAM the past 2 years seems to have slipped too, from the guest service, to the general maintenance. IMO, SF needs to forget about rides for 1 year and instead invest that money to general maintenance, landscaping, a new training/ guest service program for employees and a new line of marketing. I love SF parks, I really do, but Im starting to get fed up with numerous issues... Rude employees who seem like theyre being bothered all the time, advertisements all over the parks, random games just thrown all over the place, the complete and utter neglect to the parks, the constant dumping of money into their flagship parks while the others suffer, but the worst.... THE UNWILLINGNESS TO FIX IT ALL!

[RCF]

Problem: Weather

 

Once again, like the Summer of 2013, the Summer of 2014 has sucked for many parks in the Midwest, Eastern, and Northeastern USA. Each day at work we are facepalming ourselves checking the forecast as it just never seems to cut anyone a break. The story from all of our other "park friends" is the same. Weather will make or break your season unless you have an incredible new attraction that makes people want to come out in the rain.

 

The industry is not in decline. That is one of the worst assumptions I have read on here in a long time. There is no shortage of investments from each respective chain of parks (Six Flags, Cedar Fair, Disney, Universal, etc...) or privately held parks (i.e. Holiday World). The largest industry trade shows and conferences, IAAPA Attraction Expo, Asian Attractions Expo, and European Attractions Expo, had record attendance and number of vendors which is another positive indicator. Finally, as much as I don't like to lean on attendance numbers alone, the annual attendance report indicates that most parks are generally doing well in terms of increasing their draw. One year of decline simply can't tell the whole story. To make a statement such as "the industry is in decline," you need a much more in-depth analysis of trends to back up such a claim.

I meant the industry is seeing a decline this season with attendance. Many people are saying the parks have been dead lately when they have been going. The amusement industry is not declining as a whole, as there are so many big projects coming around next year. They are just now seeing some big improvements are needed to keep people coming into parks. So no, the industry is not declining, just attendance so far this season is.

[Nitro1118]

No one is saying that Disney and Universal are regional parks. Though, come to think of it, most of Disneyland and USH's attendance comes regionally. But ignoring that for a moment, my point is that people will fill up $300/night motel rooms and pay $90/day for admission for their family in increasing numbers even with increasing expenses while attendance is falling at places like Six Flags that are far cheaper. The sorts of people taking their family to Orlando for a week are probably not the sorts of people who can't also afford a day trip to a regional amusement park if they wanted to. They're just choosing to not go.

 

My point was comparing regional parks to established resort destinations is like comparing apples to oranges. Very different animals, with Disney (the gold standard in theme parks) and SF in particular being polar opposites. Of course Disney also has a big local crowd, but they built themselves big enough to pump $2B into their parks 2 seasons ago through being a resort destination. Those visitors spend multiple days at the parks, spiking attendance figures dramatically, especially when you got 24 hotels on one property. Like I said, Universal was seeing steep drops in attendance for a year or two despite being arguably the 2nd best chain in the world. Quality doesn't always reflect itself in attendance figures.

 

Cedar Fair, and to a lesser extent Busch parks are more appropriate comparisons for SF, just like Knoebels is a better comparison to Holiday World than an SF park is.

 

And like it or not, revenues are up higher than attendance is down. I don't necessarily agree with their methods of price gouging, but it is climbing a company that was in bankruptcy 5 years ago out of the hole. Coorperations are in it for the money, and right now SF is definitely succeeding financially. Will this work out long-term? Maybe, maybe not. But it's very difficult for me to say they are anywhere near failing at the current moment.

[Jew]

^Without knowing exactly WHY guest spending is up, it's really hard for anyone to say what the long term prospects are. If they are spending more because prices went up, then attendance being down is a disaster waiting to happen---eventually they'll run out of people to gouge and costs to cut. If people are choosing to spend more on their own at the same prices, it's not necessarily a bad thing for the company.

 

Given Six Flags history...I'm inclined to believe this is might be the beginning of the end.

[DirkFunk]

My point was comparing regional parks to established resort destinations is like comparing apples to oranges. Very different animals, with Disney (the gold standard in theme parks) and SF in particular being polar opposites. Of course Disney also has a big local crowd, but they built themselves big enough to pump $2B into their parks 2 seasons ago through being a resort destination. Those visitors spend multiple days at the parks, spiking attendance figures dramatically, especially when you got 24 hotels on one property.

 

Disneyland and WDW are different beasts. Disneyland has a huge and vocal guest base of annual passholders living in Southern California who pay (IMO) crazy money for a season's pass to the place and fill it practically every day. Annual passholders at WDW are a tiny minority of the guest base, and they pull far more people internationally than does Disneyland. Disneyland is a *local's* park and they've raised prices over the last 10 years at something like 300%-400% over inflation, yet attendance isn't dropping. Magic Mountain, meanwhile, was on life support just a scant time ago, and reverting to the old Premier Parks ways is unlikely to dig it out when that's what put the place in the hole to begin with.

 

Like I said, Universal was seeing steep drops in attendance for a year or two despite being arguably the 2nd best chain in the world. Quality doesn't always reflect itself in attendance figures.

 

What part of Six Flags right now do you think reflects superior quality over 3 years ago? Or the Shapiro Era? The worst thing I can say about Shapiro is that he greenlit the Dark Knight mice-in-a-box rides.

 

Cedar Fair, and to a lesser extent Busch parks are more appropriate comparisons for SF, just like Knoebels is a better comparison to Holiday World than an SF park is.

 

And so if we see Cedar Fair down 7-10%, I think there's reasonable questions that have to be asked about them as well. Are their plans working? Do they need more time to convert people to thinking of them differently? Are there policies in place that may be hurting attendance (i.e. their rain policy at Cedar Point)?

 

SeaWorld Parks has strikes on it none of these other places have against them: Blackfish and Death At SeaWorld. They've gotten rolled by the media now for the last year. There hasn't been a park, much less a chain, that's gotten taken out to the woodshed like that since the race riots that helped kill parks like Boblo and Crystal Beach.

 

And like it or not, revenues are up higher than attendance is down. I don't necessarily agree with their methods of price gouging, but it is climbing a company that was in bankruptcy 5 years ago out of the hole. Coorperations are in it for the money, and right now SF is definitely succeeding financially. Will this work out long-term? Maybe, maybe not. But it's very difficult for me to say they are anywhere near failing at the current moment.

 

They're building up a debt load again, letting the infrastructure fall apart, and the attendance is dropping. If they want to raise prices, cut hours/pay, plaster more ads in the parks, and try to defer more maintenance to make up for this, they might be able to keep "growth" happening at least virtually for a little while. The thing is, you're telling this story to people who saw this coming once before to the same company. We're watching history repeat itself.

[alabardo84]

 

They're building up a debt load again, letting the infrastructure fall apart, and the attendance is dropping. If they want to raise prices, cut hours/pay, plaster more ads in the parks, and try to defer more maintenance to make up for this, they might be able to keep "growth" happening at least virtually for a little while. The thing is, you're telling this story to people who saw this coming once before to the same company. We're watching history repeat itself.

 

As you are pessimistic

[DirkFunk]

 

They're building up a debt load again, letting the infrastructure fall apart, and the attendance is dropping. If they want to raise prices, cut hours/pay, plaster more ads in the parks, and try to defer more maintenance to make up for this, they might be able to keep "growth" happening at least virtually for a little while. The thing is, you're telling this story to people who saw this coming once before to the same company. We're watching history repeat itself.

 

As you are pessimistic

 

What is the optimistic viewpoint based on what we're seeing? Six Flags attendance dropping as the prices inside continue to increase, eventually reaching a stable point in which the parks have manageable attendance on a daily basis but burgers are $25 and Cokes are $10?

[DJeXeL]

^Agreed.

[KBrylczyk]

As you are pessimistic

 

HA! No, he's a realist. You're just blind to the facts. Do you happen to be a global warming denier, as well? It seems right up your alley.

[alabardo84]

As you are pessimistic

 

HA! No, he's a realist. You're just blind to the facts. Do you happen to be a global warming denier, as well? It seems right up your alley.

no I'm not blind, rather optimistic. would be enough to change a couple of situations and the whole chain would gain

[neil009]

Question. Six Flags more than anyone else in the industry seems to really be pushing for that high school/college age demographic, based on how and what they advertise, the merchandise they sell, blasting club music across the midways after the sun goes down, YOLO, etc. The problem is, those kids aren't the ones with money to spend on tickets and season passes, adults are, and I could see many adults being turned off by the whole image Six Flags as a chain is projecting. Does anyone else think this could be part of what's hurting them?

[TexasParkman]

It is fairly obvious what happened. Jim Reid Anderson and his "crew" have one job- and only one job-RAISE SHAREHOLDER VALUE. Shapiro is gone because he was interested in the experience that a Park can provide. The current cast of villains at SF only want to improve shareholder value. That is what the fight with Snyder was all about. Anderson and his team have experience with taking distressed properties, raising the value and then turning them for a profit. It does not take a genius to see that plan at work. If you cared about the Parks who would spend money on infrastructure- setting up the long haul. Peeling paint and cracking sidewalks can be fixed. But if you want to turn the property- you "patch". If you care about the Parks you don't minimize your scheduled work crew on a small turnout day - therefore closing food places early- not having enough ride attendants, etc. These things SFOT does on Tuesdays and Wednesdays because they are light crowd days. THAT- is maximizing profit for the short term which is what you do if you want to "flip" a company.

 

It is sad- but I fear it is true that a sell off might be in the offering before too long.

[DirkFunk]

It is fairly obvious what happened. Jim Reid Anderson and his "crew" have one job- and only one job-RAISE SHAREHOLDER VALUE. Shapiro is gone because he was interested in the experience that a Park can provide. The current cast of villains at SF only want to improve shareholder value. That is what the fight with Snyder was all about. Anderson and his team have experience with taking distressed properties, raising the value and then turning them for a profit. It does not take a genius to see that plan at work. If you cared about the Parks who would spend money on infrastructure- setting up the long haul. Peeling paint and cracking sidewalks can be fixed. But if you want to turn the property- you "patch". If you care about the Parks you don't minimize your scheduled work crew on a small turnout day - therefore closing food places early- not having enough ride attendants, etc. These things SFOT does on Tuesdays and Wednesdays because they are light crowd days. THAT- is maximizing profit for the short term which is what you do if you want to "flip" a company.

 

It is sad- but I fear it is true that a sell off might be in the offering before too long.

 

This is exactly what I think is going on. To a t.

[adamd]

I can't help but hear and read almost all negative responses to Six Flags parks. If you have fb I'm sure you just saw Robb and KTs terrible experience today at SFGAM. You just don't read or hear nearly as much negative on other theme park chains. Do you think if Six Flags got a new CEO (someone from outside) and either replaced all park presidents or at least rotated them to different parks it would start solving some of their known issues?

[coasterchitchat]

Yes. Someone with a business sense like Matt Outimet would work. Maybe Cedar Fair buys Six Flags in my wild dreams.

[Shavethewhales]

You can't simply switch people out and expect things to suddenly turn around. As I've expounded on in other threads, SF needs to get back to competing on a customer service standpoint, not just building big rides and luring people in, then essentially pounding them with hidden fees. Repeat visits need to be an objective. Doing that involves a whole litany of new priorities, including theming, guest interactions, line management, etc...

[adamd]

You can't simply switch people out and expect things to suddenly turn around. As I've expounded on in other threads, SF needs to get back to competing on a customer service standpoint, not just building big rides and luring people in, then essentially pounding them with hidden fees. Repeat visits need to be an objective. Doing that involves a whole litany of new priorities, including theming, guest interactions, line management, etc...

 

It wouldn't change suddenly, but if you replaced the ceo and park presidents and have 2 seasons to turn things around. This ceo doesn't seem to understand what you stated where it's not about just adding a new attraction every year yet that's his big thing.

[JJLehto]

Not even just us...every friend I have, or even person I've spoken to, (so we're talking "gp" here) may like the rides but HATE whatever Six Flags park they've been too.

It is truly an awful chain, and despite the cries of enthusiasts bashing any non small park, I have found all Cedar Fair parks great, as is Hershey and of course any smaller ones I've been to.

 

That said, well so much depends in regards to your question. This new CEO would have to need a new philosophy, different from the current otherwise there's no point. Same with park presidents.

If this was to happen though, then yes I suppose positive changes would come.

 

Shame is unlike the "normal" business world, amusement parks kind of remind of sports...aka we are suckers we will always go, and we may moan and cry but no one ever actually takes the step of not going, surely millions won't. So we need a "good" guy basically to want to make things way. Like how "good" owners of sports team do things right because it's their belief, all the others don't give a crap about fans and mile us dry, knowing we can't not go.

Otherwise, I don't see it ever changing, there'd be no motivation on the part of Six Flags to do so.

 

If ya wanna start a US wide petition, (or even global) here on the internet to boycott Six Flags until they make some changes, sign me up.

Just wouldn't hold my breath lol

Edited July 29, 2014 by JJLehto

[tarheel1231]

^Cedar Fair is decent at best. If you want friendliness, go to a Herschel Park like Dollywood or SDC.

[Wes]

Probably the best realistic option is to sell off certain parks to other companies and keep maybe a core of six parks they can concentrate on. Get a CEO who cares about the parks and not just stock numbers. And then go from there.

 

Or pave everything.

[JJLehto]

^Cedar Fair is decent at best. If you want friendliness, go to a Herschel Park like Dollywood or SDC.

 

 

Eh won't bother here since it's not the point but yes, I know I know the chains are the devil (or maybe just a bad guy) and small parks are Heaven. This isn't about that, I know it's in the enthusiast nature to get that bash in but this is about SF.

Call me awful but friendliness while nice, is not the most important thing. It could be improved (like pay better wages and thus enforce people doing their jobs as well as they can) but Cedar Fair is perfectly fine. Also look at what they offer, all the CF parks I've been to have better selection IMO than SF, and they all run (a miracle there) the parks are up kept better, I always found staff friendlier. It may not have the same magic as small parks, but look at what they offer!

 

Compared to SF which makes it obvious, you are here to ride (maybe 6) rides and shovel money to us.

I agree with what someone said above, it's about customer service. Cedar Fair is a mega business, but they do it right!

But yeah, there are only the 2 major chains, and we pretty much will always go no matter what...unless parks are sold off, nothing will change until we stop going to them.

[tarheel1231]

^I'm not saying Cedar Fair is rude, I just think that they could improve their customer service. I might be a little biased though. Carowinds is my home park. I love it to death. And a majority (90%) of the ride ops and staff are pretty nice. But then there's that 10% that could do their jobs a little better.

 

I don't expect the ride ops to go above and beyond to be friendly, I just want enjoy my visit at the park.

 

[Edit] looking back on my last post, decent is probably the wrong word. Let's just say 'good'. Lol.

Edited July 29, 2014 by tarheel1231

[VF15]

I don't think replacing the CEO will immediately solve all of Six Flags' problems, but something seriously needs to be done. Six Flags is becoming the Walmart of the amusement park industry. Bad operations, rude employees, and terrible customer service can happen at any park, but I hear about it the most at the Six Flags park. I agree that some of these parks should have no new additions for a year so they can focus on improving customer service because if a park has an "A-list" coaster lineup but bad customer service, then I'd prefer to visit a park with a "B-list" lineup and good customer service. I'm not hating on Six Flags. I just think some aspects of their parks are in need of improvement.