Mechanic Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Has there been any attempt at providing suspension on roller coaster trains? I realize there are various ways that wheel assemblies and axles are hinged to the chassis of a train to accommodate the necessary articulation and "steering" a track may require, but have there been any trains that incorporate a method of insulating the chassis from the shock experienced by the wheels running on the track? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBru Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Aren't some type of shock-absorbers used an B&M/Intamin wheel systems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loefet Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 ^ They are for keeping the wheels on the track. The type of coaster that have "suspension" on their cars are the suspended ones (only damping of the swinging motion) and the new S&S Free Fly have air-suspension to give a smoother ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shavethewhales Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Mack actually used suspension as a huge feature with their 'e-motion' coasters a while back. I don't know if they use suspension on any of their other coasters, but for those they made it to where the car was so loose that it would wiggle and sway as it went around corners. I've always wanted to know what it felt like, I'm sure it's a lot smoother going down drops. Any one been on Tulireki at Linnanmäki? http://rcdb.com/ig2470.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPDave Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 ^As I understood it, the sway was programmed rather than the result of loose "suspension". If the car had that much freedom from the track the coaster wouldn't be able to negotiate basic elements... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennyweird Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a suspension system increase rolling friction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanic Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 Thank you for the information on the Mack e-motion coaster. This is something along the lines of what I was thinking of, but it seems they utilized the suspension feature to provide noticeable rocking and swaying of the cars as something of a novelty. I was actually thinking more about a suspension system to simply make a ride smoother. I wonder why the idea hasn't been pursued to any greater degree. As for any effect on rolling friction, I believe that would depend on the type of suspension involved. More than rolling friction, I think the inertial force of the train would be the more pressing concern. Springs store energy, and then release it, but you never get as much energy back as you put in, so there is some loss there. Any normal friction in the moving parts of the suspension would use up some energy. Damping uses up a considerable amount of energy, so shock absorbers, or any other method used to dampen spring oscillation, would result in losses as well. However, as long as the energy losses associated with a suspension system on a train were accounted for in the design of a coaster, then I don't see any reason it couldn't be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldJJman Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Actually, I know Antelope at Gulliver's Warrington, DOES have shock absorbers!! (i.e. springs in the wheel assemblies) It is an annoying ride, because it's ALWAYS bouncing around. I KNOW I've ridden another one, but I can't remember it right now. I'll look and see if I have some pics of the assemblies. JJ EDIT: No I don't have pics of the wheel assemblies. But, yes, it does use springs. TERRIBLE ride. I want to say that Pegasus at Efteling has the shock absorbers too, but I'm not 100% sure of that one. JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanic Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 ^ Thank you for checking on the pics. I'm somehwat surprised at your impression of a ride with wheel suspension, but I guess that it could simply be the execution of the idea was less than ideal. Or, it's just a bad idea and that's why there aren't more examples. It just seems to me that in this day and age of such advanced suspension technologies in things like automobiles and motorcycles that at least some of that technology would find its way to making coasters smoother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldJJman Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 The only other examples that I can think of are: 1. Take a look at some of the older wooden coaster trains. I believe that the "Prior & Church" trains may have had leaf springs as part of their design at one time. 2. Arrow inverteds. Most (if not all) have at least 8 true shock absorbers per car, 4 in front and 4 behind the seating bucket. It dampens the radical swinging motion of the cars. Because they have to be constantly lubed, that's why there are tarps covering those assemblies. Look at the pics here of Ninja at SFMM. Ex 1, Ex. 2. As for conjecture as to why more don't have them: 1. Maintenance nightmare. Springs exposed to major weight differences and constant pounding, along with the excessive G forces, could make them wear out extremely quick. 2. See #1 Edited to add pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Baynham Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Hi TPR Members Should "coaster company X" decide to fit suspension on their coaster trains, aren't they admitting in the same breath that they manufacture rough coasters? Just a thought Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absimilliard Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Morgan wooden coaster trains also have shock absorbers on the wheels. They are a bit too efficient on La Ronde's Monstre as the trains just bounce around the track all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarmor Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Hi TPR Members Should "coaster company X" decide to fit suspension on their coaster trains, aren't they admitting in the same breath that they manufacture rough coasters? Just a thought Simon no, it could mean they want a smoother ride... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DenDen Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 I would think that a suspension system would be a maintainance nightmare on a coaster. In trying to think like an engineer would, "less moving parts = less things to worry about". Building a good coaster from the ground up wouldn't need a suspension system, but replacing trains on exsisting rough coasters could be a good idea. And rather using a suspension system on wheel chasis, use them to suspend seats/cabins from the train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stricklandCC Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 While maybe not a true suspension system, S&S used rubber, air filled tires/wheels on Dodonpa and Hypersonic XLC as an attempt to create a smoother ride. Eventually trains were modified/replaced for reliability reasons, I do not know if the pneumatic wheel system was effected or a cause of this modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffon Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 ^ Yea, S&S used pneumatic aircraft tires on Hypersonic and Dodonpa and actually marketed them as creating a "smoother" ride. Not only did it not work to make the ride smooth, but the tires also went flat frequently which caused the frame to drag and damage the trains even more. I believe that most PTC trains have small leaf springs on the rear road wheels for each car. I don't know if the purpose is strictly for dampening vibration, because the rear seats tend to be the most jarring, especially on the 3-bench cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stricklandCC Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 ^ Did they ever replace the pneumatic wheels with traditional polyurethane coated wheels? And when the tires did fail, and the train evidently dragged the frame, I'm assuming it wouldn't have completed the circuit. I would've hoped that engineers would have incorporated some sort of back-up or "fail-safe" system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffon Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 ^ They re-designed the trains 3 or 4 times for Hypersonic but never got away from an air filled tire of some sort. I guess it couldn't be retro-fitted any other way. When a tire went flat, it didn't stop the train from completing the circuit. It would go around and make a horrible scraping noise. Also since it rode lower, the train would take out other parts of the track like limit switches and sensors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stricklandCC Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 ^ thats absolutely hilarious...'nuff said. Seriously though, the fact that such high dollar engineering project can be so under-engineered...curious. Does Dodonpa still operate with the original trains? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Behemoth_Lady_Jess Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 I thought that B&M, Intamin etc, used spring loaded wheel which are similar to suspensions. Hence why they are so smooth. I know that most people hate rough coasters, but (even though I hate headbanging) I have a feeling that the rough ride that the lack of suspensions provides actually gives some coasters "character" and "attitude". ~ Jess "Hard ride, stay free" Chan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southpuddle Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 ^ Exactly. see: Magnum XL-200. Just wouldn't be the same if it were butter-smooth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamatt Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I thought that B&M, Intamin etc, used spring loaded wheel which are similar to suspensions. Hence why they are so smooth. I know that most people hate rough coasters, but (even though I hate headbanging) I have a feeling that the rough ride that the lack of suspensions provides actually gives some coasters "character" and "attitude". ~ Jess "Hard ride, stay free" Chan The reason why B&M coasters are so smooth is because all three wheels are always in contact with the track. Less wheel play, less vibration. Arrow coasters hav a centimeter or so between the side friction wheels and the track, causing wheel play, which causes vibration. vibration=head banging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chauncey Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I thought that B&M, Intamin etc, used spring loaded wheel which are similar to suspensions. Hence why they are so smooth. no, it's not really much like a suspension system — i mean, maybe it would be if the road wheels were “spring loaded”, but, as i understand it (or maybe misunderstand it?), they're not, at all. they do “spring load” the guide and upstop wheels (or something along those lines, at least, i think), but that's a totally different thing — basically: instead of using the “gap” wheel assemblies which were the norm before B&M, they use flexible wheel assemblies (which serve the same purpose), and they're “spring loaded” so that the assembly actually flexes with the track, and doesn't just wobble around randomly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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