coasterdude5 Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 ^ That's part of my problem with Cedar Fair. They (from what I can see) tend to hold themselves above everyone else. However I can't say much, because I've never been to a Cedar Fair park. That will change this summer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jds03 Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 the only company I believe will always be fine is Disney, because if Disney goes down the theme park industry dies. Yes that's true partly, but i will tell you why Disney will isn't going to come down easily, and that's because the general public are as stupid as it gets with their opinions about picking theme parks to go to. They don't realize that there are thousands of theme parks in the world that are better than Disney, because they just don't think theirs an option, because they never look into it! The reason Disney is so successful is that the general public have and probably still will for a while, believe that a Disney trip is an trip unlike anything on earth, and they are willing to spend anything on earth to get it. Disney would be successful even if they had the common decency to give their customers their monies worth, but they don't have any common decency. They are money craving slobs and it seems that nobody is able to see that. First of all, i have never heard anyone complain about the 75 dollar per person ticket price, when you can buy two days at a cedar fair park for less, but wait! Have you ever wondered why they have to put multiple parks at each resort? Because that multiples the amount of time they get to take 75 bucks from you! Plus not to mention how they have the highest food prices, highest resort prices, and they have more expensive cheesy souvenirs than even six flags! Sorry for that rant, but i knew some sort of Disney comment was going to set me off sooner or later. let me conclude by saying if Disney goes down the theme park industry will not die, it will FLOURISH! Suddenly people around the world will look to new theme parks and realize how much they were ripped off by Disney, and how great other parks were that they had been taking for granted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginzo Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 ^Epic fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Yes that's true partly, but i will tell you why Disney will isn't going to come down easily, and that's because the general public are as stupid as it gets with their opinions about picking theme parks to go to. They don't realize that there are thousands of theme parks in the world that are better than Disney, because they just don't think theirs an option, because they never look into it! The reason Disney is so successful is that the general public have and probably still will for a while, believe that a Disney trip is an trip unlike anything on earth, and they are willing to spend anything on earth to get it. Disney would be successful even if they had the common decency to give their customers their monies worth, but they don't have any common decency. They are money craving slobs and it seems that nobody is able to see that. First of all, i have never heard anyone complain about the 75 dollar per person ticket price, when you can buy two days at a cedar fair park for less, but wait! Have you ever wondered why they have to put multiple parks at each resort? Because that multiples the amount of time they get to take 75 bucks from you! Plus not to mention how they have the highest food prices, highest resort prices, and they have more expensive cheesy souvenirs than even six flags! Sorry for that rant, but i knew some sort of Disney comment was going to set me off sooner or later. let me conclude by saying if Disney goes down the theme park industry will not die, it will FLOURISH! Suddenly people around the world will look to new theme parks and realize how much they were ripped off by Disney, and how great other parks were that they had been taking for granted. look how dumb you are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbalvey Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Would anyone mind if I closed this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginzo Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 No, it's like a festering wound I can't stop picking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteornotes Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 ^^I'm personally vastly entertained by people who have never done more than mow their own lawn think that they have all the solutions for any multi-billion dollar industry, but perhaps that's just me... dt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfc Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Would anyone mind if I closed this thread? Thought about doing that myself earlier today--it appears to have reached a tipping point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 And thats a problem why? BTW If you were one of the only chains to be making profit - and good profit at that while installing new rides AND aquiring an entire chain of parks Id be feelin pretty high and mighty as well. They are smart business people. Allow them to have their moment because its now. When the rest of the economy is suffering and a large portion of the amusement industry is, they arent. Give credit where credit is due. Im not a huge CF fan but I can recognize a well run and organized business when I see it. And CF - definatly falls into that category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcbwjck Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Would anyone mind if I closed this thread? It would be better if it was closed because this discussion isn't opening anyone's minds to anything new. People are going to just spout their own opinions on the topic and bash anyone who disagrees with them. The basic idea of this thread as is has been "discussed" in many other topics though it may be packaged slightly different than the other threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunfire Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 ^Yeah, I think this thread should be closed before a flame war erupts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jds03 Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 ^Yeah, I think this thread should be closed before a flame war erupts. Yes, i agree. And i also know i have my foot in my mouth right now, but sometimes certain Disney comments blow me over the edge, and i have definitely done that on other forums, and i knew it was a matter of time before i blew it here. Sorry if i offended anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Flame wars only erupt when people cannot let people have their own opinions. I for one dont think disneys all that great and Ive pretty much spent a large part of my life there. But thats me. I know many people (including my parents) who are utterly obsessed. Thats fine and dandy. There are the main things I hit there but Id rather go there now, even at age 25 and no girl, to just go and sit in a resort and visit Universal instead. The Disney resorts are second to none. But hey, if this topic among others has to be closed for flame wars - wow. Just wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OFortuna Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 I wonder if there is a sense of invincibility going to the heads of the higher-ups running CF. Maybe it already is. I sensed a very cocky tone in this article:www.iaapa.org/expos/attractions/ShowDaily08/wed/CandidKinzel.asp It may just be me, but it seems like some of the people who are running CF think they can do no wrong right now. Its not like Kinzel didn't say anything that isn't true. Nor did he say anything particularly self aggrandizing. Telling a room full of managers in the amusement industry that giving away your gate is a bad idea shouldn't be a news flash anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatOne Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 I think this discussion is a little early. When CF bought the Paramount Parks they took out a much larger loan than what they needed for the new parks. They did this so that they could have some operational money, as well as money to pay dividends over the next several years. I think you need to wait and see how they do once that barrowed cash disappears and they have to restructure their debt. As a side note: I don't consider CF parks well rounded at all. Most of their parks are not kid/family friend. For all the reasons already posted above. I also don't consider adding a small kiddy ride or a sub par show a balancing act with coasters. Build some great family water rides or dark rides (CF seems very frighten of these) and then we can talk about balance. THIS. Free Cash Flow is great. Cedar Fair has outlasted Six Flags because they carried more cash and had a better profit margin (light years ahead). However, Just looking at CF's financials shows me they very well could be headed the way of Six Flags. They have a dividend that is currently 16%. That's great if you're a stockholder, but absolutely stupid for CF to payout. They have a VERY heavy debt-load from the Paramount parks. Their current Long Term Debt/Equity ratio is 8.55! Personally as an investor, I don't consider investing in any company with a ratio of 1.5 or higher..and I only consider anything above 0.95 to 1.5 if they have a massively successful product and an inordinate amount of cash. Cedar Fair needs to slash it's dividend and take that money and pay down their debt. If they don't, they are in for some big hurt. They paid out $102 mil in dividends alone last year. Take some of that money and pay the debt! Secondly, if CF goes to restructure their debt (which they will have to at some point, I'm sure), they will find much more difficult terms thanks to the awful credit market (it doesn't only affect individuals). In 2007, their Total Assets and Total Liabilities crawled closer to a 1:1 ratio than in 2006, which is scary. Their Net Tangible Assets went from $422 mil in 2005 to $31 mil in 2006 to -$106 mil in 2007. For the first time in a while (in 2007) they had a negative change in cash flow to the tune of -$24 million. The company really needs to start hitting grand slams to keep their momentum going, and they just aren't that company. The economy wouldn't have for anything like that currently, anyways. I can see them filing for bankruptcy somewhere down the road so they can re-organize and come back stronger. As someone who invests, I wouldn't touch this stock with a 10-foot pole. I've been snapping up great companies on the sell-off over the past few days that have low debt and good cash reserves. Cedar Fair does not even come close to that. They have debt the size of small banks...and we all know how those have been faring. BTW all the financial information can be found here: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bs?s=FUN&annual -Bryan "if you're going to buy stock in a park operator, the only one to buy is Disney" Wood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuschSchoe Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 If you ask me, Cedar Fair actually bringing charm into Kings Dominion. It really never had any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfc Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 ^Pre-Paramount, it did have some charm. Frankly, I've grown more disenchanted with KD as the years go by--the food has gotten worse, the bathrooms are often filthy (particularly during Haunt), and there is a bit of laziness about their operations (for example, Drop Tower has terrible dispatch times, they left a Haunt maze up in FoF's queue house all season, and Rebel Yell needs paint desperately). But there have been some benefits under CF. Putting Dominator there was a smart move (best ride in the park now), Haunt was better this year than last, and Hurler is running better than in year's past. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBo Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 I have stock in Cedar Fair and it isn't worth sh*t compared to when I got it. And frankly, I enjoyed Paramount's Kings Dominion very much when I visted there before the evil Cedar Fair took it over so don't go bashing Paramount Parks before the Cedar Fair take over. There may be only a few but some people enjoyed them a little bit more than they are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor6 Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 I wonder if there is a sense of invincibility going to the heads of the higher-ups running CF. Maybe it already is. I sensed a very cocky tone in this article: www.iaapa.org/expos/attractions/ShowDaily08/wed/CandidKinzel.asp It may just be me, but it seems like some of the people who are running CF think they can do no wrong right now. Its not like Kinzel didn't say anything that isn't true. Nor did he say anything particularly self aggrandizing. Telling a room full of managers in the amusement industry that giving away your gate is a bad idea shouldn't be a news flash anymore. Agreed. Kinzel's "Economic Assessment for the Industry" is particularly true. Since many people as less money to spend on larger vacations, they instead visit the local amusement park more often. I would not be surprised if Cedar Fair sets company attendance records this year (well really any local amusement). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfc Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 I have stock in Cedar Fair and it isn't worth sh*t compared to when I got it. And frankly, I enjoyed Paramount's Kings Dominion very much when I visted there before the evil Cedar Fair took it over so don't go bashing Paramount Parks before the Cedar Fair take over. There may be only a few but some people enjoyed them a little bit more than they are now. Paramount was pretty enthusiastic (or so it seems to me) during the first few years they owned Kings Dominion; for example, they really hyped the new "Wayne's World" section locally when it opened, and the Hurler was a damn good coaster during its first season. But things slipped as years went by. I consider the CF buyout, at this point, sort of a lateral move for the park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the ghost Posted November 22, 2008 Author Share Posted November 22, 2008 I'm just confused as to how you can say HRP was better than a CF park... Granted I've never been there but from TR's I've read here, that just wasn't the case. -James Dillaman HRP seemed to have some charm that CF parks(I've only been to knotts) but all of its original beauty besides the streets of ghost town are gone. I mean its pretty hard to see the coolness and novelty of an old fashioned walk through school house with a huge large CCI roller coaster running next to it. Jds03 wrote The reason Disney is so successful is that the general public have and probably still will for a while, believe that a Disney trip is an trip unlike anything on earth, and they are willing to spend anything on earth to get it. Disney would be successful even if they had the common decency to give their customers their monies worth, but they don't have any common decency. They are money craving slobs and it seems that nobody is able to see that. First of all, i have never heard anyone complain about the 75 dollar per person ticket price, when you can buy two days at a cedar fair park for less, but wait! Have you ever wondered why they have to put multiple parks at each resort? Because that multiples the amount of time they get to take 75 bucks from you! Plus not to mention how they have the highest food prices, highest resort prices, and they have more expensive cheesy souvenirs than even six flags! WOW I really did not mean to start such a controversial thread. I just thought it would be interesting to hear input on this issue from an enthusiasts point of view. I LOVE DISNEY and don't at all believe they are a bad corporation. The reason I said if Disney falls the industry will fall is because how many parks do you know with old rides rides that consistently have over an hour line(Indy, space mountain, splash mountain during the summer) It is always crowded and most people love disney. I hate people who say they are too old for Disney like some of my friends. Disney is a corporation everyone should enjoy and they are the anti CP. Even with something like Toy Story Mania where the outdoor theming is not spectacular( DCA not Hollywood Studios) they still went the extra mile with posters, a huge talking Mr. Potato Head and a nice looking facade. Nothing at Knotts besides Jaguars liner has a touch of theme or charm like Disney. Close the thread if you want and I am sorry if this thread offended anyone. A battle was not the intended result of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfc Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Yes, this thread has wandered a bit afield, from discussing CF's financial status to bashing Disney and other park chains. Different strokes for different folks. Some prefer Disney, others CF, others SF. There's no point in rehashing all that. Thread locked. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts