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Why Cedar Fair?


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I agree that CF is a a well run business. But just because you run your business well does not necessarily mean that your product is great.

 

Yes it does. If you offer a lousy product or service, then people arent going to come and purchase that. Cedar Fair obviously has a product of quality where people will continue to attend their parks.

 

Look at the US Automotive industry, even though many of our cars have improved Many americans are burned on the sub par cars of the 70's and 80's and still won't buy a domestic make.

 

You can't compare Microsoft to Cedar Fair, thats a whole different animal.

Yet you can compare CF to the U.S. automotive industry? I think I see your point re. Microsoft; the Windows operating system is something that the majority of businesses and households need, whether they like it or not, whereas no one has to go to a theme park.

 

Is that what you're getting at?

 

CFC, I see what you're saying, but yes, I was comparing consumer product to consumer product. Computers are a touchy issue because 90% of the world uses PC's which nearly all have Microsoft components or software... even my Mac, so there are cases where you have no choice but to buy some of those products.. plus, some games and applications won't work on anything but PC's. Even if you don't buy one, you most likely have to work with them or learn on them, thats why I can't really compare them. But yes, I think you know what Im saying.

 

It's gotten more complex than it needs to be.

 

If you have a bad experience with a car or a restaurant, or an amusement park or a cd player, you don't have to buy or go there again.

 

I never knew that about Jaguars height restriction change.. which is odd. There could have been a number of reasons to change it.. perhaps it was wrong to begin with, or insurance reasons, or even the manufacturer updated it.. or it was Cedar Fair paranoia... i don't know.

 

(Millennium Force was 54" and now its 48" and I think SFMM's Viper was 48" at one time and I was surprised to find it at 54" considering the trains are built for a 48" Minium)

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I think I see your point re. Microsoft; the Windows operating system is something that the majority of businesses and households need, whether they like it or not, whereas no one has to go to a theme park.

 

I was actually talking more about the point where Windows 95 first came out. It was a god awful product, especially in the dreaded first release of Win95. Windows never really did what it was supposed to until about 5 years later. The market COULD have gone Mac.

 

However, Microsoft won through superior marketing, excellent developer relations, and the much lower cost of PCs. It wasn't their product quality that carried them so much as their business skill.

 

And takes me back to my original point about CF. They're excellent at business. They've expanded successfully without drowning in debt and while still paying a nice dividend. However, their parks don't really measure up in quality to countless other operators. And I think this is in no small part due to how tight fisted they are with money.

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I always said that Cedar Fair lacks in consistency and has no real brand image to call its own- something Six Flags has over it.

 

Which is why everyone knows of Six Flags, whereas not many of the GP have heard of 'Cedar Fair', they have heard of Cedar Point and maybe Kings Island, but have no idea they are linked (for the most part).

 

My problem with CF is their fanboyism in regards to certain parks, but that's a whole new topic there...

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I was actually talking more about the point where Windows 95 first came out. It was a god awful product, especially in the dreaded first release of Win95. Windows never really did what it was supposed to until about 5 years later. The market COULD have gone Mac.

 

In theory, it could go Mac tomorrow or to UNIX. It won't though, because Windows already took over the market. Only way to potentially compete is to offer something at an immensely lower price like Google's free solutions. Microsoft won the war almost two decades ago.

 

And takes me back to my original point about CF. They're excellent at business. They've expanded successfully without drowning in debt and while still paying a nice dividend. However, their parks don't really measure up in quality to countless other operators. And I think this is in no small part due to how tight fisted they are with money.

 

As always, this is a YMMV type of thing. However, the number of operators that can be expected to repeat their success in the way CF can is, well, small. One can argue Six Flags isn't at that level yet in terms of quality on a universal level, much less being successful. In fact, while Cedar Fair is essentially stable, everyone else (Six Flags, Herschend, etc) is in a state of contraction.

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Herschend is only in contraction because they are smart enough to know when to pull the plug on a project before it goes into the deep red, they also know how to invest in their properties and balance them out- a textbook Dick Kinzel needs to read.

 

HFEC's parks are balanced in almost every way... probably the most well-rounded chain of parks out there.

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I wish we would have some CF parks here in Europe because I really like them.

OMG! NO!!!!

 

Are you kidding???? Europa Park, Phantasialand, Asterix, Heide Park, Liseberg, TusenFryd, even parks like Walibi World are *LIGHT YEARS* better than any Cedar Fair park!

 

I would put your average Cedar Fair park on par with something like Movie Park Germany and even still I think Movie Park has more charm than your average Cedar Fair park.

 

You have some AWESOME parks in Europe. Don't take them for granted. Remember, not all CF parks are Cedar Point.

 

--Robb

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I would put your average Cedar Fair park on par with something like Movie Park Germany and even still I think Movie Park has more charm than your average Cedar Fair park.

 

And Movie Park Germany has much, much better food than a CF park. That was perhaps the best park meal we got in Europe.

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Herschend is only in contraction because they are smart enough to know when to pull the plug on a project before it goes into the deep red, they also know how to invest in their properties and balance them out- a textbook Dick Kinzel needs to read.

 

Contraction is contraction and however "deep red" it was, CC wasn't making money. Overall, in the case of CF, I'm not seeing many properties running into deep losses right now. Do you? I'm gonna go on a limb and say that they are pretty versed on what the markets they're operating in are looking for. Maybe what they do wouldn't fly in Branson, but its argurable that what flies in the same town that Yakov Smirnoff runs nightly shows in might not succeed in Sandusky, Vaughn, or Mason.

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As I would agree- both HFEC parks are in tourist destinations and aren't one trick ponies in their respective cities... unlike most of the CF parks.

 

It's alot easier to gain attendence when you are the only thing in town.

 

i.e. Dollywood competes locally with what seems to be about half of Ripley Entertainment in Gatlinburg.

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As I would agree- both HFEC parks are in tourist destinations and aren't one trick ponies in their respective cities... unlike most of the CF parks.

 

It's alot easier to gain attendence when you are the only thing in town.

 

I'd argue the reverse. If you build a major themer in a resort town, you shouldn't be dying for attendance. After all, the people are already there. As long as you have a decent enough product, you should see bodies through the gate. Just look at Lake George, Weirs Beach, any of the Jersey Boardwalks, Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk, etc. Universal and Busch didn't choose to build parks in Orlando just because the weather was good, you know.

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I have heard of a lot of cool parks going down. HRP(not great but better than CF) Certain Six Flags Parks, even Busch maybe. But I have not heard anything about cedar fair taking any bullets. Even the GP doesn't like them, they have a terrible season pass system, customer service, rough rides (cough Ghostrider cough) and honestly are taking charm away from parks, so why aren't they shutting down? Its pretty sad when SFMM is the park with the third amount of charm after the DLR resort parks( yes including DCA.)

 

Does anyone know the reason why they are not in trouble because the only company I believe will always be fine is Disney, because if Disney goes down the theme park industry dies.

Just because you hate a park chain doesn't mean that everyone thinks the same way that you do. While I don't like everything that goes on, I think your assesment is unfair and biased. As an employee at Valleyfair, I can attest to the fact that most of the GP likes at least Valleyfair. (and I would say that it would be the same way at most, if not all CF parks) If the GP didn't like CF parks, they wouldn't go to them, they would find something else to do.

 

I haven't experienced the season pass system, but I believe that anyone with a season pass can go through the main gates at Valleyfair, I'm not sure if its the same at all the other parks yet.

 

While there are some employees that poorly interact with guests, I have noticed from comparing Valleyfair to other places that hire low wage workers, that the customer service seems to be much better than those places.

 

There are some rough rides, but honestly, I think that most rides are well maintained. I can't comment on any six flags or other CF parks, but I would think that most parks aren't much different in this regard.

 

Charm is a subjective term. What do you describe as charm? Lack of trees at parks? Old attractions being removed that may cost too much to maintain to justify being open? IMHO, most of the GP don't care if the park keeps it's classic rides or if it has trees/good scenery (If they wanted that, they would have paid to go to Disneyland, not a CF or a SF park. Are you going to say a mall doesn't have any charm just because it doesn't have enough trees?

 

The reason CF is doing well is because they usually balance the attractions enough so that there is something for everyone to do. They also don't spend more than is wise to spend, unlike SF did.

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But the demographics are totally different- Branson and Pigeon Forge don't pull the same people Orlando does all year long. They tend to swing more older a majority of the year with Summer and a weebit of Winter being the family friendly months. Indeed, I know Dollywood pulled a majority of its attendence in the three month Summer span, even though it was open nearly all year (Mar-Jan).

 

And while quite a few older folks do visit the parks, not all do- the prospect of walking all over a theme park is bothersome for a number.

 

Dollywood has this demographic problem along with the nature lovers who come merely for the Great Smoky Mountains and really don't visit anything else while in town.

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But the demographics are totally different- Branson and Pigeon Forge don't pull the same people Orlando does all year long. They tend to swing more older a majority of the year with Summer and a weebit of Winter being the family friendly months. Indeed, I know Dollywood pulled a majority of its attendence in the three month Summer span, even though it was open nearly all year (Mar-Jan).

 

And those two parks are markedly different affairs than Disney, Universal, or Sea World. Again; its an understanding of what it is they need to provide for the market they're in. Dollywood and its food and shows might succeed wildly in a place like Pigeon Forge where buses full of old folks and families alike pour in during their season. The same balance might not succeed as well elsewhere. Look at how Fiesta Texas was doing pre-SF. Where is Opryland?

 

Dollywood has this demographic problem along with the nature lovers who come merely for the Great Smoky Mountains and really don't visit anything else while in town.

 

So how is it that all the go kart tracks make money? Its a resort town that caters to a wide spectrum and Dollywood is a major anchor to it.

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^^^^I agree!

 

Just about every park has at least one rough/crappy coaster, every park is going to have at least one rude employee, every park is going to have less trees in some areas than others, every park is going to have some crappy food - it is inevitable!

 

Even though it might not be every theme park fanatics favorite amusement park chain, they are obviously doing something right or they would be in the same boat as some of these other companies. Same as Disney...

 

If every CF park bottomed out of the industry and shut down tomorrow, wouldn't everyone be at least a little bummed over losing some great coasters and rides at the various parks?? No Diamondback, Behemoth, Millenium Force, Maverick, Dominator, Volcano, Delerium, Drop Tower, Skyhawk, etc, etc...and there would be no more garbage can jokes and references either!!!!

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While I don't like everything that goes on, I think your assesment is unfair and biased. As an employee at Valleyfair,

 

I got a good laugh out of that. We're all biased. Deal with it.

Just because I was employee at a CF park doesn't mean that I think that it is the prefect chain tht is better than any chain or better than Six Flags. I haven't gone to any Six Flags parks yet, so I can't make any judgements. What could be worked on is more intermediate rides (40"-48" range), more employees that actually cared about their job (but this is near minimum wage workers that we are talking about, you can't expect much), cheaper/better food, and more trees/gardens/theming.

 

I don't think that CF is a horrible chain, but the primary reason that they aren't experiencing the same difficulty as SF is because they didn't morgatge their future by building more "high thrill rides" than the chain could afford. CF is still more family oriented than SF was in the late '90s, instead of being a tennager/young adult park. CF could be going the same place that SF is going if they make a few mistakes.

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I have heard of a lot of cool parks going down. HRP(not great but better than CF) Certain Six Flags Parks, even Busch maybe. But I have not heard anything about cedar fair taking any bullets. Even the GP doesn't like them, they have a terrible season pass system, customer service, rough rides (cough Ghostrider cough) and honestly are taking charm away from parks, so why aren't they shutting down? Its pretty sad when SFMM is the park with the third amount of charm after the DLR resort parks( yes including DCA.)

 

Does anyone know the reason why they are not in trouble because the only company I believe will always be fine is Disney, because if Disney goes down the theme park industry dies.

The points you have made are pretty bad. How was HRP better than any other CF park? The place was way over priced, no good rides besides one, and it was just a horrible time to open an amusement park.

 

The GP doesn't ike CF? Gee, that's news to me seeing that about 95% of their attendance is the GP. Do you realize that makes no sense? And I mean come on, do you honestly even think the GP knows that the park they are going to is owned by CF? Their customer service seems fine to me and rough rides? Please. MF, TTD, Maverick, Behemoth, etc. Every park does have some rough rides but I think CF has the best collection of coasters out there.

 

CF does great and their attendace was up this year. They know how to treat their customers with cheap gate prices and the smart idea on their part is to over price once people get into the park. They are better off than SF in the long run.

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IMHO, most of the GP don't care if the park keeps it's classic rides or if it has trees/good scenery

 

Take out Pirates of the Carribean at Disneyland or remove two lightposts from Main Street...and watch the uproar.

 

^Though you make an okay arguement, you have to keep in mind, not every CF park is ran with the same type of urgency as Cedar Point. Knott's Berry Farm is in no way like CP. Geaqua Lake was not Cedar Point. No other park in the chain will get as much attention as that one park.

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IMHO, most of the GP don't care if the park keeps it's classic rides or if it has trees/good scenery

 

Take out Pirates of the Carribean at Disneyland or remove two lightposts from Main Street...and watch the uproar.

You are comparing Disneyland to a CF park. Anyone going to Disneyland isn't going for thrilling rides, they are going for the experience (themeing) that the park will provide. Although, I'm sure that many visitors to Disneyland are first time visitors, so they wouldn't notice the change. It would only affect return visitors, and only if they remembered it. If someone is going to a CF park, they aren't going to it for the theme.

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CF is doing better than most of the other chains simply because their bottom hasn't fallen out yet.

It will, in time, and they'll be refereed to as the New SF.

 

"only Walmart has the kind of money to purchase both Six Flags and Cedar Fair incorporated at the same time."

-anonymous CEO responding to rumors of a buy-out.

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People care about small things. So according to your arguement, People who like steel, concrete and trash cans go to CP, and people who want to visit a nice park go to Disneyland?

 

and FWIW, I was not comparing Disney to CF, People care about old rides/scenary being removed.

 

Cedar Point's glory days came when they removed the old stuff and put in new attractions. Raptor wasn't just put in a blank space, you know.

 

elsewhere:

 

CF is doing better than most of the other chains simply because their bottom hasn't fallen out yet.

It will, in time, and they'll be refereed to as the New SF.

 

Yeah, probably not. Though, if they do see the "bottom drop out," the only kind of activity that could cause that at the moment would likely take out Blackstone, Six Flags, and PARC too.

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I wonder if there is a sense of invincibility going to the heads of the higher-ups running CF. Maybe it already is. I sensed a very cocky tone in this article:

www.iaapa.org/expos/attractions/ShowDaily08/wed/CandidKinzel.asp

 

It may just be me, but it seems like some of the people who are running CF think they can do no wrong right now.

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