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Six Flags Fiesta Texas (SFFT) Discussion Thread

P. 288: New B&M Dive Machine Announced!

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Drone footage from 100 feet up that definitely does not show every inch of track is not confirmation that there won't be trims, sorry.

 

You clearly didn't watch the first video in full quality. It's not a long coaster, it's easy to inspect that they didn't leave any space for trim brake installation. The cut-outs for the brakes are very clear (giant holes on the top of the track.)

 

If RMC deems it necessary to add trims they can, and will find a way.

 

Well obviously, but I'm just pointing out that there's no easy way to add them right now without major modification. I doubt they want to replace full track sections or cut into their current track sections to add them. There's easier and cheaper solutions to manage speed.

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Considering the entire ride is built by cutting into steal plate, doing so to add trims isn't a particularly daunting or difficult task. Although the engineering teams put a lot of thought and effort into what the final product will be, and I'm sure that they know whether they'll need any kind of speed control or not.

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Considering the entire ride is built by cutting into steal plate, doing so to add trims isn't a particularly daunting or difficult task. Although the engineering teams put a lot of thought and effort into what the final product will be, and I'm sure that they know whether they'll need any kind of speed control or not.

 

Perhaps it wouldn't be so hard to do cutting/welding/installing, but consider the stress limitations of the Raptor track. The tiny modified IBox design retains its structural strength through the carefully engineered, solid body of the track - Adding holes along high force areas may very well lower the limits of stress it can sustain. Watching that video, you can visibly see how much force the train exerts on that track. There would certainly need to be careful thought and planning if they were to modify a piece of track during a high stress area of the layout. I don't think it's as easy as it sounds.

 

It's clear that they weren't prepared to add any trims or they would've include possible attachment locations in the layout (Think Silver Bullet after the cobra roll). I'm sure it's possible to add one now, but it would take a lot of time and money. We've never seen RMC go with a trim before, I doubt we will see it now.

 

EDIT: But who knows, I'm just approaching this discussion through my engineering lens. For all we know this whole discussion is moot and the speed is right where they want it be for this phase of testing anyway?

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The discussions about trims cracks me up, this is a prototype ride and tweaks and adjustments are bound to happen. I just can't wait to ride!!

At the end of the day, during testing, especially initial test runs, they put the wheels that will have the least resistance to ensure the train will make it around the track. Many many many modifications will be made until its safe for us to ride.

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The tiny modified IBox design retains its structural strength through the carefully engineered, solid body of the track - Adding holes along high force areas may very well lower the limits of stress it can sustain. Watching that video, you can visibly see how much force the train exerts on that track. There would certainly need to be careful thought and planning if they were to modify a piece of track during a high stress area of the layout. I don't think it's as easy as it sounds.

 

It actually is as easy as it sounds. Holes would do very little in this case, as most of the strength comes from the moment of inertia (height or "depth" to resist bending). While yeah, putting too large of a hole may do something, it likely is a moot point as long as you leave enough web thickness near the edges and whatnot. Putting a trim would be not be any issue for them to do, if need be.

 

Having done a bit of structural design engineering myself, you would be surprised at how much you could hack something like that and maintain most of it's strength (within reason). I bet you if they needed to, they could load that track with holes top and bottom.. But it would just waste time/money to cut the material that way and wouldn't save the customer any money, as the scrap would be useless to RMC. So no real point in doing so.

 

Doesn't matter how small the track is, it's carrying a much lighter load than say a full Intamin/B&M train. That is why they can make it so small.

 

They know what they are doing (RMC), and I am sure they have thought about the potential for trims if need be and how they would add them.

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It actually is as easy as it sounds. Holes would do very little in this case, as most of the strength comes from the moment of inertia (height or "depth" to resist bending). While yeah, putting too large of a hole may do something, it likely is a moot point as long as you leave enough web thickness near the edges and whatnot. Putting a trim would be not be any issue for them to do, if need be.

 

Having done a bit of structural design engineering myself, you would be surprised at how much you could hack something like that and maintain most of it's strength (within reason). I bet you if they needed to, they could load that track with holes top and bottom.. But it would just waste time/money to cut the material that way and wouldn't save the customer any money, as the scrap would be useless to RMC. So no real point in doing so.

 

Doesn't matter how small the track is, it's carrying a much lighter load than say a full Intamin/B&M train. That is why they can make it so small.

 

They know what they are doing (RMC), and I am sure they have thought about the potential for trims if need be and how they would add them.

 

I would disagree with your assessment. From what we know of the braking assemblies, they look quite intrusive to the track and require holes on both the top and sides of the rail. It seems unlikely to me that you could just put these types of holes in any old place along the track. Maybe it's possible, but I really don't think it's that simple.

 

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I'll have to locate a picture close up of the brake design tomorrow. Interested in why the access inside the track unless hydraulic/pneumatic. I can't tell from that pic at least. But really, even if they had to torch that material out I don't expect any significant strength reduction in the track, within reason.

 

Honestly, was just thinking there needs to be the fins that can be welded to a bracket on top of the track. Have not seen any good detailed images of the brake assemblies, I was assuming they were like, say, Intamin's design.

 

But my main point was as far as the hole thing goes, side or top, it won't matter much. Gaps/holes can be fine, just look at Intamin's old school box or triangle track. Or a little bit of a different example, the updated arrow 4D train that look like swiss cheese now to reduce weight while maintaining design properties.

 

Mass doesn't dictate strength, material properties and careful design/engineering do.

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But my main point was as far as the hole thing goes, side or top, it won't matter much. Gaps/holes can be fine, just look at Intamin's old school box or triangle track. Or a little bit of a different example, the updated arrow 4D train that look like swiss cheese now to reduce weight while maintaining design properties.

 

Mass doesn't dictate strength, material properties and careful design/engineering do.

 

You might be right in the end, but you're definitely making some assumptions about the stress limitations of this track (You need to know material, dimensions, forces, etc.) I'd still say it would be a little more complicated than sending a dude with a cutting torch out there. This track has very different structural qualities than tubed Intamin track or the S&S 4D chassis. I can tell the raptor track uses pretty beefy plates (1/4" or so steel?), but they're sill not cutting holes without a few calculations or FEA simulations to ensure a modified design can handle the stress just as well.

 

Not to mention that trim brakes are often designed into the layouts of modern coasters from the beginning. The flow and pacing of coaster layouts are determined with trims from an early stage (almost every new B&M, Skyrush, DC Rivals). Rarely do you see trims added after installation (I305s drop for a short while).

 

Apologies for being so insistent about my doubt on this, I'm just skeptical of those who are sure trims will be added.

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You might be right in the end, but you're definitely making some assumptions about the stress limitations of this track (You need to know material, dimensions, forces, etc.) I'd still say it would be a little more complicated than sending a dude with a cutting torch out there. This track has very different structural qualities than tubed Intamin track or the S&S 4D chassis. I can tell the raptor track uses pretty beefy plates (1/4" or so steel?), but they're sill not cutting holes without a few calculations or FEA simulations to ensure a modified design can handle the stress just as well.

 

Not to mention that trim brakes are often designed into the layouts of modern coasters from the beginning. The flow and pacing of coaster layouts are determined with trims from an early stage (almost every new B&M, Skyrush, DC Rivals). Rarely do you see trims added after installation (I305s drop for a short while).

 

Apologies for being so insistent about my doubt on this, I'm just skeptical of those who are sure trims will be added.

 

Well, of course they won't just go out and torch without having done their homework first. I am strictly talking based on my experience that adding holes in structural member’s (such as track) does not do all THAT much to do ability of the structure to take the vibration/shock/loading as you would expect, again, to an extent. You do get stress concentrations with holes/slots/cutouts, so there is design work that has to be done.

 

So of course the holes or modifications would matter, but in this case I think it would matter much less than you think it would. I have not done the FEA or analysis on this (obviously), but I do have experience with design and shock/vibe testing work in the aerospace industry as well as large fabrication design for air heating industries. Which in that case, were basically giant thin steel ducts (think 15ft diameter plus, 25ft in length or more) on supporting legs with a coaster-like track in the middle to allow for our air heating system that would sit in the middle of the duct to ride on when it would expand/contract due to heating. Very much looked like a coaster track in a way (i-beam style) and I had to analyze the loading and deflection on those support pieces, from both vertical and lateral loading. You would be surprised with how minimal of a design you can get away with, in terms of size vs. strength.

 

Trims are designed, usually, into the layouts. You are correct, but it is not always the case. Just remember, this is a new design for RMC. The friction factors and other design characteristics may vary slightly from their prototype or calculated design for whatever reason. If adjustment can’t be made to reach target speeds (who knows if this is or is not at target at this point) with wheel adjustments, you best believe they will add trims. I personally don’t believe trims will be added, as wheel compounds can do a lot to the speed outcome of the train and these are only first tests, but my point is… RMC likely has thought about their plans if the ride did not reach target design criteria and if modification was required, they had thought about that already and how it would be done safely. That’s my entire point.

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Trims are designed, usually, into the layouts. You are correct, but it is not always the case. Just remember, this is a new design for RMC. The friction factors and other design characteristics may vary slightly from their prototype or calculated design for whatever reason.

 

RMC likely has thought about their plans if the ride did not reach target design criteria and if modification was required, they had thought about that already and how it would be done safely. That’s my entire point.

Thank you for eloquently stating what I have been trying to say this whole time.

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RMC likely has thought about their plans if the ride did not reach target design criteria and if modification was required, they had thought about that already and how it would be done safely. That’s my entire point.

 

I obviously agree with this. My point is that there's currently no trims on the ride and if they were expecting trims, they would've probably prepared a possible fixture spot for one beforehand. Again, I doubt they want to replace full track sections or cut into their current track sections to add them. There's easier and cheaper solutions to manage speed.

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The main thing for me is that I'm very glad Alan Schilke/RMC are designing rides that push the limit like this, let alone something as insane as these raptors appear to be so far at the cheaper price point they'll end up at. I imagine RMC is going to be pretty busy for some time to come.

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I just hope these RMC Raptors prove to be a sucess. I, for one, am interested in how this thing performs rider capacity wise, which we won't know about until the ride opens to the public.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in a video (I don't remember which) someone discussed that rows would be assigned in a different room than the loading station, then would be shuttled into the trains as fast as possible in order to keep the trains "Always moving." Interested to see what effect it has on capacity.

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Ugh. . . sensor caused Batman to stop (as it does occasionally), and I guess slow news day? so local Austin News picked it up, and people are freaking out.

 

the facebook comments are NUTS (OMG. .they are stuck upside-down!! dismantle this thing before someone gets killed!).

 

it's just nuts.

 

 

http://www.kxan.com/news/texas/rollercoaster-leaves-riders-dangling-at-six-flags-texas/1048292875

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That made national news. I didn't see it, but the missus mentioned it while getting ready for work this morning.

 

Also, absolutely no one is stuck upside down in that footage.

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That made national news. I didn't see it, but the missus mentioned it while getting ready for work this morning.

 

Also, absolutely no one is stuck upside down in that footage.

 

yeah. .it's so stupid!

 

even in the video, you can see no one is even CLOSE to "upside down"

 

It's obvious those commenting. . . AND THE FREAKING REPORTER. . are not familiar with the ride, as at that point of the lift, the riders are comfortably tilted back in the seats.

 

the spinning has not yet started. NO ONE is at an "odd angle" or Upside-down.

 

sheesh.

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