Obama or McCain or Beemerboy?

[natatomic]

^You took the words right out of my mouth. Because, man, I had NO idea that $7.08 an hour made me rich!

 

^^And before you let all the chaaaaaaange and ho-ooooooope and all the other feel good words hypnotize you, do make sure you find out how accurate your candidate's words really are. Not that McCain is exactly a saint either, I'm just saying don't be like all the other brainwashed Obama-ites and think that he's any different from all the other less than perfect (to put it nicely) politicians in Washington. He just has charisma and rhetoric to fool you into THINKING he's special.

 

And with Obama having one of the most liberal voting records, he's not really the most "awesome candidate regardless of party" when he stands for so many things that I'm against. I have no problem voting for a democrat, but he is NOT the one I'd cross party lines for.

[tntornadox]

Obama has run a comparitevely clean campaign, which stands for his character. The GOP can't do anything but run attack ads and lies, too bad many Americans still believe their bs after all these years. I mean, if I get it in an email, it must be true, right?

 

McCain is so out of touch, he thinks he is a 'change agent' even though he has been in the Senate for 26 years. He has no faith in women, he picked Palin simply because he wanted the female vote, period. He can't remember how many homes he owns, that's scary, given he will be in control of our military (World War 3, anyone?), the slumping economy is 'in our heads', and we are a country of whiners.

 

That sums McCain up.

 

If you think America deserves better than that, Obama is your man. He isn't perfect- noone is, but he looks, sounds, and has a much better standing amongst things, IMO, than McCain.

 

--One final quote:

 

Q: President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years — (cut off by McCain)

 

McCAIN: Make it a hundred.

 

Q: Is that … (cut off)

 

McCAIN: We’ve been in South Korea … we’ve been in Japan for 60 years. We’ve been in South Korea 50 years or so. That would be fine with me. As long as Americans …

 

Q: [tries to say something]

 

McCAIN: As long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. That’s fine with me, I hope that would be fine with you, if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where Al Queada is training and equipping and recruiting and motivating people every single day.

 

That ends the question for me. I do not think, IMO the GOP deserves another chance in the White House after all they have done these eight years.

[dandaman]

"...And John McCain has picked Sarah Palin, the Alaskan governor, as his running mate. Here's some things we've been able to find out about her: Her name is Sarah Palin."

 

--Jay Leno

[CoastersNSich]

If people think that McCain picked Sarah Palin solely because of the gender opportunity, then they must be naive. Sure, I never heard of her before yesterday, as maybe up 90% (my guess), but the first thing I did was learn about her.

- As mayor of a city, albeit a small one, she fired city officials she felt were doing a poor job.

- As governor, she sold off the jet plane that the previous Republican governor bought (on eBay), and was at odds with Congressman Ted Stevens and Senator Don Young on spending, especially the "bridge to nowhere."

- As governor, she is also the head of the Alaska National Guard.

- Palin has also been the past (and present) owner of small businesses.

 

Palin's executive experience is very key as to why she was selected - and much of her background was key to getting McCain conservative voters that may have been lukewarm about John.

 

Back to the R vs D generality stuff - if I were to describe myself, I'd be a classic Democrat, maybe even a classic liberal. I believe in programs (although limited) to help people, supporting the military. Though I'm pro-life, I still believe in individual liberties rather than nanny state laws like smoking and trans-fat bans. Labor unions? That I'm not so sure about. When I see a Democrat who doesn't cater to the hard left, I'll vote for him/her. But for 2008, it'll be McCain/Palin for me.

 

While I admire Obama's rise to fame and power and his passion for change, I question his relative inexperience, plus his support of the "Fairness Doctrine" as well as of his scheme to get Walmart to unionize. I thought that service at Walmart was bad non-union... Obama wants our government to be our "great saviour," and that bothers me.

 

Oh, and I'm neither rich nor religious.

[natatomic]

Obama...isn't perfect- noone is, but he looks, sounds, and has a much better standing amongst things, IMO, than McCain.

 

Cult leaders look and sound really good, too. I don't know what you mean by "has a much better standing amongst things," though. Still, the former is the position most Obama followers seem to have - that he just sounds so darn good - but it's very much like judging a book by it's cover. And in Obama's case, the cover is beautifully ornate - shiny, new, with all sorts of rainbows, pots of gold, and puppies bordering the edges. It LOOKS so impressive - but open it up and it's a single page. On the front it says "hope," and on the back it says "change," and that's as far as the book gets in having anything of substance.

 

(I have "hope" too, you know. Most people in this country have "hope," regardless of political party. But bad guys (criminals, terrorists, etc.) have hope too - hope in fooling the good guys, cutting corners, killing their enemies, whatever. Don't get me wrong, I'm not lumping Obama in with the bad guys, I'm just saying that when one uses such a vague and relative term like "hope," it REALLY helps to expand on it a bit.)

 

Now, McCain's book isn't nearly as pretty, as I'm sure most people would agree upon. It's old, dusty, and worn, but at least when you open it up, there's more than a single page to read. A lot more, actually. You may not agree with what's written in it, but at least you have something from which to form a valid opinion.

 

And aside from what the candidates merely appear to be, while I still don't agree with McCain on a good number of things, I agree with him FAR more than Obama. And in the end, it's the political positions that win me over. Not the appearance of the candidate or how warm and fuzzy the guy makes me feel.

 

As for the negative ads, heaven forbid a precious candidate gets his/her itty bitty feelings hurt.

 

And has anyone actually done their research on the things Obama claims? Go to factcheck.org (a site that analyzes ALL the candidates, not just dems or reps) and you'll see that Obama "lies" just as much as McCain. He's just another sleazy politician, not the blameless savior of the the free world.

 

Okay, I really need to try to stay away from this thread. I hate talking politics - I can feel my blood pressure raise with every word I type.

[dandaman]

^I'll pay for your BP meds if you keep posting as sensibly as you just did.

[supertrooper]

Sarah Palin Is NOT The Mother

 

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/30/121350/137/486/580223

 

Yes, of course it might be a rumor...but it's an awesome one, and actually pretty believable. There's no way a conservative, Christian, pro-life woman would want her daughter to have an abortion, but she would also not want it know that her 16 year old daughter got knocked up. Makes sense to me.

[BeemerBoy]

Sarah Palin Is NOT The Mother

 

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/30/121350/137/486/580223

 

Yes, of course it might be a rumor...but it's an awesome one, and actually pretty believable. There's no way a conservative, Christian, pro-life woman would want her daughter to have an abortion, but she would also not want it know that her 16 year old daughter got knocked up. Makes sense to me.

 

 

 

I'm pregnant too. That's the rumor anyway.

[jmicha]

I'm voting for Obama for many reasons. The main reason is that I just want change. My parents are middle class, and we live in Cleveland, which has been greatly hurt in recent years. The economy needs change, and I don't feel that McCain is capable of realizing what it's like to have to make ends meet. I applaud him for being successful in life (that's everyone's goal, isn't it), but I don't feel that someone that considers millionaires to be middle class should be in charge of our failing economy. Do I think Obama is perfect. Hell no. I went and watched him speak when he came to the University of Cincinnati, and his true character is very clearly visible when he speaks unless you're blind. I do think, however, think that he will bring change that will help our country.

 

I find McCain to be too similar to Bush, and frankly, I hate Bush with every fiber of my being. I understand that he's not 100 percent responsible for the state of our country, but his idea of how this country should be run is quite laughable. I don't think a single person would have voted for him had we known that nearly three trillion dollars would be spent on a war chasing phantom WMDs to stop the terrorism that lead to 9/11, despite the fact that Iraq has nothing to do with that event. Bush is a moron who is spending all of our country's money being daddy's little boy and finishing a fight started by his father.

 

So yeah, I want change, and I feel Obama can succeed in bringing that change to our country.

[natatomic]

I applaud him for being successful in life (that's everyone's goal, isn't it), but I don't feel that someone that considers millionaires to be middle class should be in charge of our failing economy.

 

You DO know that he was being sarcastic, right? You know, like "Ha ha ha?"

[jmicha]

^Okay, but that honestly makes it worse in my opinion. Our economy is in a crap state right now, and poking jokes at the middle class of America is offensive.

[mr_teisco_delrey]

Obama...isn't perfect- noone is, but he looks, sounds, and has a much better standing amongst things, IMO, than McCain.

 

Cult leaders look and sound really good, too. I don't know what you mean by "has a much better standing amongst things," though. Still, the former is the position most Obama followers seem to have - that he just sounds so darn good - but it's very much like judging a book by it's cover. And in Obama's case, the cover is beautifully ornate - shiny, new, with all sorts of rainbows, pots of gold, and puppies bordering the edges. It LOOKS so impressive - but open it up and it's a single page. On the front it says "hope," and on the back it says "change," and that's as far as the book gets in having anything of substance.

 

(I have "hope" too, you know. Most people in this country have "hope," regardless of political party. But bad guys (criminals, terrorists, etc.) have hope too - hope in fooling the good guys, cutting corners, killing their enemies, whatever. Don't get me wrong, I'm not lumping Obama in with the bad guys, I'm just saying that when one uses such a vague and relative term like "hope," it REALLY helps to expand on it a bit.)

 

Now, McCain's book isn't nearly as pretty, as I'm sure most people would agree upon. It's old, dusty, and worn, but at least when you open it up, there's more than a single page to read. A lot more, actually. You may not agree with what's written in it, but at least you have something from which to form a valid opinion.

 

And aside from what the candidates merely appear to be, while I still don't agree with McCain on a good number of things, I agree with him FAR more than Obama. And in the end, it's the political positions that win me over. Not the appearance of the candidate or how warm and fuzzy the guy makes me feel.

 

As for the negative ads, heaven forbid a precious candidate gets his/her itty bitty feelings hurt.

 

And has anyone actually done their research on the things Obama claims? Go to factcheck.org (a site that analyzes ALL the candidates, not just dems or reps) and you'll see that Obama "lies" just as much as McCain. He's just another sleazy politician, not the blameless savior of the the free world.

 

Okay, I really need to try to stay away from this thread. I hate talking politics - I can feel my blood pressure raise with every word I type.

 

Also, don't forget his ties to William Ayers. Ayers is an unapologetic Weatherman terrorist. Obama's "community action" activities on the south side of Chicago started with this sack of dirt .

[natatomic]

^^ He wasn't making fun of middle-class America (thin-skinned, maybe?), he was making a joke about the people who inaccurately attack him for ignoring the lower/middle classes.

[Wes]

And in Obama's case, the cover is beautifully ornate - shiny, new, with all sorts of rainbows, pots of gold, and puppies bordering the edges. It LOOKS so impressive - but open it up and it's a single page. On the front it says "hope," and on the back it says "change," and that's as far as the book gets in having anything of substance.

 

Yeah, it's not like his website has a complete and comprehensive breakdown of his policy..oh wait...it does?

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

 

The whole "All he says is Hope and Change and doesn't explain it blahblahblah" argument is so weak and tired at this point. Everything is listed out there extensively. His speech on Thursday went into pretty specific detail as to what he intends to change. I know its probably easier to fall back on that old argument and paint Obama supporters as brainwashed cultists, but come on...

[ginzo]

I know its probably easier to fall back on that old argument and paint Obama supporters as brainwashed cultists, but come on...

 

While they make up a very, very, very small percentage of Obama supporters, the New Age cultists *love* Obama.

 

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/06/06/notes060608.DTL?

 

Here's where it gets gooey. Many spiritually advanced people I know (not coweringly religious, mind you, but deeply spiritual) identify Obama as a Lightworker, that rare kind of attuned being who has the ability to lead us not merely to new foreign policies or health care plans or whatnot, but who can actually help usher in a new way of being on the planet, of relating and connecting and engaging with this bizarre earthly experiment. These kinds of people actually help us evolve. They are philosophers and peacemakers of a very high order, and they speak not just to reason or emotion, but to the soul.

 

This kind of mumbo jumbo makes me quite uncomfortable.

[bgeguy]

I can sum up this thread pretty easily...to each his own.

 

Obama's campaign slogan is "Change we can believe it" and all of his supporters say "I want change." Okay, but in what sense? What changes do you want and why? Every president has brought change whether that was their platform or not, and we all believed it during the campaign, until reality sunk in and they took office. I think that will be the case here, as every politician has made promises they can't keep. He's no different, he's just a good speaker. Actions speak louder than words, and he has no actions to support his words.

 

You do realize that for all of his "change" to occur, it has to go through Congress, and their approval rating is 9%. Not one person can "change" Washington, they may be a heavy influence, but they can't do it themselves.

 

What really irks me is when McCain makes a mistake, the media slauters him, but when Obama says he's been to 57 states and said he was in St. Louis when he was in Kansas City at the convention, nothing was said about it.

[natatomic]

^ EXACTLY.

 

What really irks me is when McCain makes a mistake, the media slauters him, but when Obama says he's been to 57 states and said he was in St. Louis when he was in Kansas City at the convention, nothing was said about it.

 

And this drives me crazy to no end. When that happened, Conan O'Brien talked about it by quoting Obama and then saying "When he heard about it, President Bush said, 'Ha ha, he forgot Alaska and Hawaii." (Paraphrased. My memory isn't spot on).

 

I know that there have been one or two jokes about Obama (nothing too harsh or direct, mind you), but had it been Bush who said that, the media would have been ALL OVER IT. Instead, it was Obama said it, and still it was used to pick on Bush. Really now, Bush says enough stupid things - you don't need to put any words in his mouth to make a joke. So grow some balls and pick on ALL the candidates. Obama isn't the untouchable Messiah, you know!

[Gav]

^^The market should take care of itself! There is no reason that the federal government needs to step in and hold our hands at every single step.

 

But this is what I don't get.

Healthcare in the US is something that has been left to the free market right? So if the market sorts itself out, then clearly nobody would be able to complain about the issue of healthcare (Furthermore, it wouldn't even be a major issue) because it would already be doing the job perfectly for everyone.

But is this the case?

 

 

Thing is, there is an economic concept called market faliure....the free market can generally be relied upon to do the job, but there are a number of things, for a number of reasons, that wont be provided by the free market.

 

Think of something as trivial as streetlamps, they are a very nice thing to have, but there would be no way for a private company to go and provide these because it would be impossible to exclude non payers ("Hey look, he's stealing light!") so instead the government intervenes by building them, and making people pay via taxes.

 

The key is for governments to pay attention and carefully consider where they should intervene, for the good of society. It isn't possible for the world to be 100% free market because some things would just be ridiculous.

 

The whole "All he says is Hope and Change and doesn't explain it blahblahblah" argument is so weak and tired at this point. Everything is listed out there extensively.

Bingo.

 

The informed voters by now would have used sources about the candidates to find out about their policies, and how it relates what is important to them. There is not a lot the candidates can do to sway this group of voters if the policies are already set.....Candidates have decided what to offer, and for voters it's a case of take it or leave it.

No amount of inspiring speeches will override the facts for these people.

 

But a lot of people aren't going to go to this effort, and are a bit more shallow when it comes to their preferences so candidates need to make people them like them for other reasons....In Obamas case, Inspire them!

But at the same time, opponents can be dismissive, and paint themselves as having a bit more substance, which is what McCain is doing.

 

At the end of the day, its just politics, there is a lot on the line for these guys, so whatever works......

 

When a candidate is giving a speech in front of thousands of people, they aren't going to pull out a document several centimeters thick and begin reading out policy after policy, because people would fall asleep. They are going to appeal to the masses, perhaps throw in a cursory look at their policies, and it will probably do the job.

[ginzo]

But this is what I don't get.

Healthcare in the US is something that has been left to the free market right?

 

Nope. Most people in the US are stuck with whatever health plan their employer offers because the current tax code strongly favors employer-sponsored plans. Most people don't get to shop around for health insurance, which means that the private insurers don't really have to compete for business. Also, the government has all kinds of dumb restrictions on buying health insurance, like you can't buy it from an out of state company.

 

Also, there's EMTALA, which says that hospitals must provide emergency care to anyone who shows up regardless of their ability to pay. Sounds great on the surface, but the government does not pick up the bill. This forces hospitals to overbill everyone else or go under.

 

And the US government sets all kinds of artificial price controls on health care through their Medicare/aid programs. They paid US hospitals about $30 billion below cost in 2006.

 

In short, there absolutely is not a health care free market in the US. The government is heavily involved.

 

Obama isn't the untouchable Messiah, you know!

 

He's not a messiah, he's a lightworker. Duh!

 

I actually watched an OK docu about Obama today. It was a bit heavy on the puffing, but fairly informative. I was a lot more impressed by him than I expected to be. He might be steeped in dirty Chicago politics, but his history does suggest that is is deeply committed to public service.

[crispy]

^^^^^

That is WHY he was biscally pushed my some Democrats to run for President, Obama has tried, but he also did not vote, in his short time in the senate, on some of the more important and telling issues

 

I absolutly LOVE people pushing Obama as the canidate for change, when he has worked to system so succesfully, and promises no real change for how the system works, or dosn't I should say

 

McCain has actually made change a part of his career, and pissed off a ton of people, including his own party in the process. How can anyone think a McCain Administration will even come close to resembling a Third Bush Term, I could just say that an obama term will be a second Jimmy Carter administration, which would be just as accurate

 

Now with the choice of Sarah Palin, he actually choose someone who also fights the establishment, and FIGHTS for change and against coruption, that is what I want in Washington, both of them have that record, McCain is the TRUE change canidate, if you don't believe me, try reading about his history, amazing and brave stuff he's done in the senate

[AllenA07]

The more and more I read I agree that Palin is a good pick for McCain. It looks like he did pick somebody who, politically is very much like him. I was with the rest of the country in that on Friday all I knew about Sarah Palin was that her name was Sarah Palin, however now that a little time has passed, it doesn't seem like such a terrible choice.

[Coasterfanatic245]

McCain/Palin 08' for me!

[gk]

Health care reform is one of the issues I'm most concerned about. Every year premiums go up and coverage gets worse. I gotta go with Obama, we need to fix the health care mess.

[bgeguy]

^And please enlighten me, where is that money coming from. It's not there.

[coaster05]

Unless they find heads in his basement I am voting for Obama.

 

I like his stance on education a whole lot better and being a teacher that helps. I don't mind McCain's, but he is a republican and they gave my life no child left behind.

 

Experience, in my opinion the most overrated thing in the election. We have had great president's with very little experience and crappy presidents with a ton of it. IMO this is a tactic to scare people into one choice over the other. Well he's got more experience so I'll vote for the old guy again. It kills me in a country where we force kids to grow up faster then they have had to since we were a agricultural nation, we can't look past age on these issues.

 

Last I checked I don't really think there is a job that gives you "experience" on being the most powerful person on the planet. Not to mention does Palin have just tons of this experience stuff either. Our Balance of Power pretty much insures that his lack of "experience" isn't going to get us blown off the planet.

 

His shiny cover, speaks so well, or any of those other things that people try to bash him on or assume that people are only voting for him because he's a celebrity. I am not sure how being one of the most dynamic speakers in the last 25 years can ever be a bad thing. He spends a ton of time addressing the public and other nations and I think it will be nice to have someone out there who can represent our nation.

 

Bottom line as long as McCain represents what you want then all the more power to you. To be honest in a lot of elections he would easily have gotten my vote including the last 4 I have voted in, however in 08 that is not the case. Did Bush or the Republicans cause all this mess, of course not. However they they were in charge when most of this mess happened. Like I said I am a teacher and they voted in a plan to make me more accountable for my job, but never gave us the money to come close to being successful. Secondly I am tired of being represented by the same person since I have been old enough to vote. Obama helps me solve both problems and I am excited to see what he can do.