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Kings Island (KI) Discussion Thread

p. 792 - Camp Cedar campground to open in 2021!

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The Giga made more sense to come before another woody. Not build Mystic in 2017 and get the Giga in 2018/19, as the wood line up is strong enough. The resort, hotel, sports complex are large investments but are a short term burst higher than normal, that's what CF was conveying to investors. That extreme number will not be the norm was the message to the investors. CF however has been steadily increasing capital investments if you look at the numbers over last 7 years or so. The breakers expansion was predicated on the success of the other recent renovation. If you look at the hotel/resort revenue numbers they went up nicely after the last renovation a few years back. Nice ROI. The sports complex will likely also give a nice ROI, as attendees to the tournaments will spend a day at the park and many will stay at the CP hotels.

 

If the giga "made more sense" then they would have built the giga. As far as the financials and how much they're willing to spend on capex, they made it pretty clear that last year was more than they would generally spend and this year's capex reflects that. Sure there's always going to be steady growth each year (on average), but that doesn't translate to "Let's put a giga coaster at Kings Island in 2017". It's clearly not in the budget, if it was they would have built it or at least spent that extra capital elsewhere.

 

There's really no counter argument, if the park wanted to spend more money they would have and if they thought a giga made more sense than Mystic Timbers they would have bought one.

 

Of course they care about anniversaries. It's something they can market without spending any money.

 

Of course, but the initial comment was directed at the people that think "anniversary year" = "blow the budget on a massive new coaster".

 

Edit....oh wait, here it is!

 

 

I sense a coasterbill comment coming shortly.

 

Glad I could be of service

 

 

As per usual as you don't read and thus miss the point. It makes no sense in a park with 3 woodies, 2 good ones, to get a 4th woody and not the Giga first. They should not have not get a coaster in 2017 and put off getting a coaster till 2018/2019 to better round out the line up. Save the 10M you spent on the GCI woody towards a GIga in 1 or 2 years. If you have enough for the year, delay a yr and that takes care of the spike year. The Giga is going to bring more enthusiasts and more GP's than another woody, no matter how much you try to hype it. CP got a bumpin attendance and a Dive is not even close to as good as any Giga. On capital expenditures the last 6 years it's been 75M, 90, 96, 120, 176, 160+, and the possibility of going over that by a bit.

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^I think Cedar Fair has proven to us over the last 5 years that they know what they're doing. If a Giga made more financial sense, they would have gone with a Giga. Mystic Timbers really is a good addition to the park and I see no reason to get all worked up over hypotheticals.

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^^I agree a giga would be better! If they put it off and saved up more for a giga and if a giga is out of reach how about a wicked RMC?? Either new or one of the coasters already there modified as one! Both gigas and RMCs are way more fun then a mid sized family friendly coaster wood or steel. At this point its nothing to do with wood vs steel but more so thrill vs family friendly. More people will flock for the big new OH YEAH!! thrill vs the "coaster me,mommy, big sissy, and gramma can ride toget-er!" Which would you plan a trip for?

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As per usual as you don't read and thus miss the point.

 

Oh I got the point... the point is that like always you think you know more than the professionals who do this for a living and think that capital expenditures should be based on things like wood to steel coaster ratios (which only enthusiasts care about) instead of projected ROI numbers.

 

If they thought it made more sense not to build Mystic Timbers this year and instead wait 2 years and build a giga coaster then why didn't they do that? Answer the question... and then submit an application since you're clearly more qualified to make capex decisions for Cedar Fair than the professionals who get paid to do that for a living.

 

I'm all for speculating about what we want parks to do but acting as if you know more than they do about how they should spend their money when they have access to infinitely more information and data and have far greater experience and qualifications than we do is ridiculous.

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As per usual as you don't read and thus miss the point.

 

Oh I got the point... the point is that like always you think you know more than the professionals who do this for a living and think that capital expenditures should be based on things like wood to steel coaster ratios instead of projected ROI numbers.

 

If they thought it made more sense not to build Mystic Timbers this year and instead wait 2 years and build a giga coaster then why didn't they do that? Answer the question... and then submit an application since you're clearly more qualified to make capex decisions for Cedar Fair than the professionals who get paid to do that for a living.

 

I'm all for speculating about what we want parks to do but acting as if you know more than they do about how they should spend their money when they have access to infinitely more information and data and have far greater experience and qualifications than we do then you end up sounding ridiculous.

 

 

LOL..Can you read. It was all about ROI's and it's in several posts. You as usual are whining and do your continuously regurgitated post when you have run out of logic for you argument. The park does not need 4 wood coasters, another family woody doesn't bring Gp's to the park and doesn't drive any more than normal season pass sales.

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I'm not going to waste much time explaining this to you since I know you're a troll, but you've now avoided this point twice so I'll ask again...

 

If it would have been a better investment for them not to build Mystic Timbers and to build a giga instead, why didn't they? How come the Cedar Fair executives who have worked in the industry for decades and get paid to do this for a living never once thought of this "brilliant" idea and some random coaster enthusiast on the internet understands their business better than they do? Answer the question... we're still waiting.

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I'm not going to waste much time explaining this to you since I know you're a troll, but you've now avoided this point twice so I'll ask again...

 

If it would have been a better investment for them not to build Mystic Timbers and to build a giga instead, why didn't they? How come the Cedar Fair executives who have worked in the industry for decades and get paid to do this for a living never once thought of this "brilliant" idea and some random coaster enthusiast on the internet understands their business better than they do? Answer the question... we're still waiting.

 

 

You're hilarious. CF nearly went bankrupt and SF went bankrupt. A bunch of other parks have gone bankrupt. Both CP and SF did b/c they made bad investments. So the logic that these execs are so brilliant and not fallible is nonsensical by history. In fact, if these execs and parks got more input from GP's and enthusiasts they might not have so many financial issues over history. The simple fact , is a GCI woody isn't a draw like a Giga or even a RMC. A Giga is a forever draw b/c there are only 4 in N. America. A Giga 1 or 2 years down the line after the capex spike would draw more people or even a RMC of Racer in 1 or 2 years. The RMC Racer would cost about the same or less than Mystic Timbers but with way more buzz.

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if these execs and parks got more input from GP's and enthusiasts they might not have so many financial issues over history

 

 

The fact that you legitimately believe that you somehow know more than they do is an amazing display of enthusiast arrogance. Nobody claimed that these people never made mistakes, but you have no qualifications whatsoever and they have access to far more information about their business than you do.

 

By your logic, you might as well go to someone who spend a few hours reading Web MD than a licensed physician because doctors occasionally make mistakes. No thanks, I'll take my chances with the people that have been working in the field for decades over some guy with limited access to information who's talking out of his a** on an online forum.

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Certainly the enthusiast community would be able to put together a park that would be fun to visit. Regardless of your stance on Mystic Timbers vs Giga as a decision made by the park, would you rather KI add Mystic Timbers or Diamondback 325?

 

But we're coaster enthusiasts. We better be able to think of good coaster ideas!

 

The people who run the park companies certainly do make mistakes, but I can't go so far as to say that they'd be better off with us making their financial decisions.

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Kings Island's market share is not growing. It is not a destination park, like Cedar Point. So you need to ask, did CF see enough ROI after building Leviathan up in Toronto? Has Carowinds seen significant growth since the install of Fury? They are very likely looking at Kentucky Kingdom and Holiday World when deciding what to do with Kings Island, as the only comparison to Cedar Point should be one of relative trends. Mystic Timbers is a safe investment that should pull market share from the other local attractions, and isn't big enough to have a negative effect on Cedar Point. Building a $30-40 million giga coaster will increase market share, but are they going to hurt their own revenue streams in doing so? Mystic Timbers could, for all we know, be a response to the growth seen by HW and KK in the last few years. If I had access to their market research and revenue numbers I could give a more accurate answer.

 

Needless to say, I find Mystic Timbers to be a good decision at a park that is known for having good wooden coasters. I have no doubt that Voyage was built a few hours away to take attention away from The Beast and it's legacy.

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I been on both Beast and Voyage and I have to say I do prefer Voyage way more. However KI has more coasters and thrill rides so if i had to pick Id pick KI. I have yet to try Diamondback and Banshee. However I'd like to try Thunderbird that coaster looks a lot of fun.

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Cedar Fair purchased the Paramount parks in early 2006. So from 2007 to 2017 here are the coasters Kings Island, Carowinds, and Canada's Wonderland have received.

 

Kings Island

2007 - Firehawk

2009 - Diamondback

2014 - Banshee

2017 - Mystic Timbers

 

Canadas Wonderland

2008 - Behemoth

2012 - Leviathan

2014 - Wonder Mountain Guardians

 

Carowinds

2009 - Flying Cobras

2010 - Intimidator

2015 - Fury 325

 

Except for Cedar Point, Kings Island is getting more coasters and I would argue more money then the rest of the chain. The park might have not gotten a giga right now but look at what they have received.

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LOL..Can you read. It was all about ROI's and it's in several posts. You as usual are whining and do your continuously regurgitated post when you have run out of logic for you argument. The park does not need 4 wood coasters, another family woody doesn't bring Gp's to the park and doesn't drive any more than normal season pass sales.

 

 

I couldn't take anything you said seriously after reading this! KI doesn't need 4 woodies? Is that a factual statement or just your opinion? I mean you do seem to "know" everything about running an amusement park, I mean you must, you are on here preaching to everyone about how parks should be run. KI is not a destination park, it is a local park. But it draws huge numbers every year, it consistently ranks in the Top 5 attended parks in the US every year. That being said, they don't really need a huge "draw" ride as they seem to be doing pretty good. For those of us that live in the Dayton/Cincinnati area, we are spoiled with Holiday World, Kentucky Kingdom, Kings Island, Cedar Point, Kennywood, Great America and St Louis all within about a 6 hr drive. We have tons of options, but a lot of people choose KI because of the closeness and rides. It doesn't matter what they build, the people will still come. I think Mystic Timbers is a great addition because it fills that void for younger kids and adults who want more than The Racer but less than The Beast in a woodie. It might not make sense to you, and that's ok, it doesn't have to because you aren't paying one penny in CF's investment in any park. So take a minute, get off your soap box and let those who know how, are paid to, and have their jobs on the line run the parks.

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Certainly the enthusiast community would be able to put together a park that would be fun to visit. Regardless of your stance on Mystic Timbers vs Giga as a decision made by the park, would you rather KI add Mystic Timbers or Diamondback 325?

 

But we're coaster enthusiasts. We better be able to think of good coaster ideas!

 

The people who run the park companies certainly do make mistakes, but I can't go so far as to say that they'd be better off with us making their financial decisions.

In all honesty, I'd probably hate the park that enthusiasts built. My very favourite parks are those that value quality over quantity and understand that bigger is not necessarily better. In fact, my top 3 parks (Disneyland, Silver Dollar City, Holiday World) have not a single ride (not just coaster, but any ride at all) over 200 feet. What they do have is a sense of place and an opportunity to escape the real world for a while. That feeling, whether on rides or not, is what makes theme parks special.

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While it is not my preference, I get why someone could prefer an atmosphere like Disney or at the non-corporate parks like HW or SDC (never been to either, though).

 

But if a park had Fury 325, Skyrush, El Toro, Shambhala, Maverick, Helix, Lightning Rod, Boulder Dash, and Top Thrill Dragster, I have my doubts that any of us would hate it. (And if I've left out your favorite coaster, stick it the park! And if you find a NoLimits video of something you like and wish existed, put it in here, too. Remember, we've got trillions of dollars to spend on this project.)

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In all honesty, I'd probably hate the park that enthusiasts built.

You and me both.

 

I been on both Beast and Voyage and I have to say I do prefer Voyage way more. However KI has more coasters and thrill rides so if i had to pick Id pick KI. I have yet to try Diamondback and Banshee. However I'd like to try Thunderbird that coaster looks a lot of fun.

I like turtles.

Edited by prozach626
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As unrealistic as it sounds I think are park for hard core coaster enthusiasts would be sooo awesome!! If it was possible my idea of an awesome thrill park for coaster lovers would have rides like El Toro,I305,Fury325,Top Thrill Dragster some sort of wicked RMC or a few! Some with super fast speed too in the 80s and 90s and even 100s! Also it would have unique coasters like the ones you see at Magic Mountain like X2 and Yolo Coaster! No lame-o family friend coasters either!! There would even be some old school woodies with fix lap bars for awesome airtime! ......That will be the closest to family friend you'd get! The place would focus on tall steep drops,wicked inversions,wicked air time hills,and be thrashed around with fast transitions! No shallow curved drops or traditional twisty track where you just turn and turn and turn....yawn. It will be the type of twisty track where you dont know which way is up and dont know your left from your right! Sigh....but we can only dream....

 

Oh and it will have awesome flat rides too of course!

Edited by storms555
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Although I'm not all in with what Eugene says, I understand at least some of his points. The idea of holding off on a major investment to save for a larger investment is easy to understand from a completely common sense financial point of view. *example* If I don't go out for a hamburger today, next week I will have enough to go out for steak. From someone who is pretty good with money, I get that and I'm on board with it. However, I'm sure what Cedar Fair has to work with is much more complex than what anyone outside of the box, or amusement park industry in general, can really understand. The bottom line is we're not in the know. We're just your run of the mill armchair quarterbacks. Even those of us who have great insight to the professional financial world are not keen to the inner workings of this particular corporation.

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As unrealistic as it sounds I think are park for hard core coaster enthusiasts would be sooo awesome!! If it was possible my idea of an awesome thrill park for coaster lovers would have rides like El Toro,I305,Fury325,Top Thrill Dragster some sort of wicked RMC or a few! Some with super fast speed too in the 80s and 90s and even 100s! Also it would have unique coasters like the ones you see at Magic Mountain like X2 and Yolo Coaster! No lame-o family friend coasters either!! There would even be some old school woodies with fix lap bars for awesome airtime! ......That will be the closest to family friend you'd get! The place would focus on tall steep drops,wicked inversions,wicked air time hills,and be thrashed around with fast transitions! No shallow curved drops or traditional twisty track where you just turn and turn and turn....yawn. It will be the type of twisty track where you dont know which way is up and dont know your left from your right! Sigh....but we can only dream....

 

Oh and it will have awesome flat rides too of course!

 

Here: http://www.themeparkreview.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58387

 

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