Kings Island (KI) Discussion Thread

[Ape]

I was on the third train out when it opened to the public. After that ride we went to beast and when we got off we saw that the line had circled around by the tower then back towards Beast. It was a pretty crazy site. We had already planned to leave that early so it didn't bother us.

[PKI Jizzman]

Back then, a full gueue was 45 from the entrance sign to the top of the stairs.

 

That was a great day.

 

Truth. Our team was the focal point for opening year and management loved encouraging us. We had so much fun, and even had competitions with Behemoth for capacity per hour.

 

Can't remember what our record was but ..maybe 1800-1900?

[prozach626]

I'm still surprised by the location they chose for Mystic Timbers. I always figured their major expansion plans would have been to go North of Racer and Adventure Express.

I imagine that they have plans for that area. I've heard a couple ideas of a Giga tossed around and if one of the layout becomes true, that area right behind Express where SOB's rosebowl was would be occupied by a turn around.

 

Wouldn't shock me if they were to get a giga. I wouldn't be surprised if a Giga were the next coaster to come to the park, but I also would tend to believe it would be in a 5+ year timeline. The park is pretty solid right now and I believe they already have one of the best hypers. I'd imagine it would go right where you're speculating. If it were on the level of Fury, I would make the four hour drive on a pretty regular basis.

 

Sorry for day dreaming out loud...

[eugjackson]

I'm still surprised by the location they chose for Mystic Timbers. I always figured their major expansion plans would have been to go North of Racer and Adventure Express.

I imagine that they have plans for that area. I've heard a couple ideas of a Giga tossed around and if one of the layout becomes true, that area right behind Express where SOB's rosebowl was would be occupied by a turn around.

 

Wouldn't shock me if they were to get a giga. I wouldn't be surprised if a Giga were the next coaster to come to the park, but I also would tend to believe it would be in a 5+ year timeline. The park is pretty solid right now and I believe they already have one of the best hypers. I'd imagine it would go right where you're speculating. If it were on the level of Fury, I would make the four hour drive on a pretty regular basis.

 

Sorry for day dreaming out loud...

 

A Giga actually made more sense for 2017 instead of Mystic Timbers IMO, as the park already has a solid wood line up. The fact that the park will now have 3 woodies, makes me think 1 woody might be RMC'd. The likely RMC candidate is Racer getting treated like Colossus to Twisted Colossus. CF is likely going to go on a run of RMC's like SF did. I could see all of the top CF parks, getting a RMC convert. CP-Mean Streak, KD-Hurler are already known, then KI-Racer, Wonderland-Mine Buster, CW-Hurler or if they don't want to do both Hurler's, a ground up RMC. If the my RMC run prediction is right, I think the KI Giga might be put off for a while. They can literally do anything they want at KI as they have land constraints like CP does.

[coasterbill]

A Giga actually made more sense for 2017 instead of Mystic Timbers IMO

 

... sure if you ignore the probable 10 to 20 million dollar cost difference between Mystic Timbers and a Giga coaster and the fact that they're already dumping a ton of money into capex (most of which seems to be for Cedar Point). While Mean Streak and the massive Breakers expansion are multi year projects, they're still fronting a ton of money for those now. They're also dumping a ton of money into Breakers Express.

 

Per their Q4 conference call, they're spending $135 million in infrastructure and marketable capital in 2017 already, but are anticipating investing up to $40 million into expansion opportunities regarding resorts, additional sports facilities like the one in Sandusky and the expansion of Winterfest.

 

Last year they were at $160 million and cautioned their investors that they felt that number was "elevated" which suggest that they'd like to be at a slightly lower number. Assuming they end up spending that additional $40 million that they're prepared to spend, they would be $15 million above a number that they already thought was elevated. A giga was never in the budget.

[I Like Theme Parks.]

^It's 4 woodies. Woodstock Express FTW!!!

[jonskinny12]

A Giga actually made more sense for 2017 instead of Mystic Timbers IMO, as the park already has a solid wood line up. The fact that the park will now have 3 woodies, makes me think 1 woody might be RMC'd. The likely RMC candidate is Racer getting treated like Colossus to Twisted Colossus. CF is likely going to go on a run of RMC's like SF did. I could see all of the top CF parks, getting a RMC convert. CP-Mean Streak, KD-Hurler are already known, then KI-Racer, Wonderland-Mine Buster, CW-Hurler or if they don't want to do both Hurler's, a ground up RMC. If the my RMC run prediction is right, I think the KI Giga might be put off for a while. They can literally do anything they want at KI as they have land constraints like CP does.

 

I love RMC a lot. Probably more than I should. But I actually hope they leave all the KI woodies alone. If they modified Racer or Beast, I'm sure they'd be fantastic and I'd ride them and thoroughly enjoy them. But I'd prefer to leave them as they are. You do have a point though, it'll be interesting to see if CF does something similar to what SF did.

[cparkes92]

A Giga actually made more sense for 2017 instead of Mystic Timbers IMO, as the park already has a solid wood line up. The fact that the park will now have 3 woodies, makes me think 1 woody might be RMC'd. The likely RMC candidate is Racer getting treated like Colossus to Twisted Colossus. CF is likely going to go on a run of RMC's like SF did. I could see all of the top CF parks, getting a RMC convert. CP-Mean Streak, KD-Hurler are already known, then KI-Racer, Wonderland-Mine Buster, CW-Hurler or if they don't want to do both Hurler's, a ground up RMC. If the my RMC run prediction is right, I think the KI Giga might be put off for a while. They can literally do anything they want at KI as they have land constraints like CP does.

 

I love RMC a lot. Probably more than I should. But I actually hope they leave all the KI woodies alone. If they modified Racer or Beast, I'm sure they'd be fantastic and I'd ride them and thoroughly enjoy them. But I'd prefer to leave them as they are. You do have a point though, it'll be interesting to see if CF does something similar to what SF did.

I feel KI will get their giga in 2022 (50th anniversary). I also feel that if KI were to get an RMC, it would be a ground-up with steel track.

[Philrad71]

^ I imagine that a certain quote will be added to your post shortly...I'd do it it, but I'm too lazy to go digging for it.

 

Edit....oh wait, here it is!

[CP Maverick]

Of course they care about anniversaries. It's something they can market without spending any money.

[eugjackson]

A Giga actually made more sense for 2017 instead of Mystic Timbers IMO

 

... sure if you ignore the probable 10 to 20 million dollar cost difference between Mystic Timbers and a Giga coaster and the fact that they're already dumping a ton of money into capex (most of which seems to be for Cedar Point). While Mean Streak and the massive Breakers expansion are multi year projects, they're still fronting a ton of money for those now. They're also dumping a ton of money into Breakers Express.

 

Per their Q4 conference call, they're spending $135 million in infrastructure and marketable capital in 2017 already, but are anticipating investing up to $40 million into expansion opportunities regarding resorts, additional sports facilities like the one in Sandusky and the expansion of Winterfest.

 

Last year they were at $160 million and cautioned their investors that they felt that number was "elevated" which suggest that they'd like to be at a slightly lower number. Assuming they end up spending that additional $40 million that they're prepared to spend, they would be $15 million above a number that they already thought was elevated. A giga was never in the budget.

 

 

The Giga made more sense to come before another woody. Not build Mystic in 2017 and get the Giga in 2018/19, as the wood line up is strong enough. The resort, hotel, sports complex are large investments but are a short term burst higher than normal, that's what CF was conveying to investors. That extreme number will not be the norm was the message to the investors. CF however has been steadily increasing capital investments if you look at the numbers over last 7 years or so. The breakers expansion was predicated on the success of the other recent renovation. If you look at the hotel/resort revenue numbers they went up nicely after the last renovation a few years back. Nice ROI. The sports complex will likely also give a nice ROI, as attendees to the tournaments will spend a day at the park and many will stay at the CP hotels.

[I Like Theme Parks.]

Of course they care about anniversaries. It's something they can market without spending any money.

Six Flags parks sometimes celebrate anniversaries by almost doing nothing but minor improvements.

[bluestreak]

I sense a coasterbill comment coming shortly.

[coasterbill]

The Giga made more sense to come before another woody. Not build Mystic in 2017 and get the Giga in 2018/19, as the wood line up is strong enough. The resort, hotel, sports complex are large investments but are a short term burst higher than normal, that's what CF was conveying to investors. That extreme number will not be the norm was the message to the investors. CF however has been steadily increasing capital investments if you look at the numbers over last 7 years or so. The breakers expansion was predicated on the success of the other recent renovation. If you look at the hotel/resort revenue numbers they went up nicely after the last renovation a few years back. Nice ROI. The sports complex will likely also give a nice ROI, as attendees to the tournaments will spend a day at the park and many will stay at the CP hotels.

 

If the giga "made more sense" then they would have built the giga. As far as the financials and how much they're willing to spend on capex, they made it pretty clear that last year was more than they would generally spend and this year's capex reflects that. Sure there's always going to be steady growth each year (on average), but that doesn't translate to "Let's put a giga coaster at Kings Island in 2017". It's clearly not in the budget, if it was they would have built it or at least spent that extra capital elsewhere.

 

There's really no counter argument, if the park wanted to spend more money they would have and if they thought a giga made more sense than Mystic Timbers they would have bought one.

 

Of course they care about anniversaries. It's something they can market without spending any money.

 

Of course, but the initial comment was directed at the people that think "anniversary year" = "blow the budget on a massive new coaster".

 

Edit....oh wait, here it is!

 

 

I sense a coasterbill comment coming shortly.

 

Glad I could be of service

[eugjackson]

The Giga made more sense to come before another woody. Not build Mystic in 2017 and get the Giga in 2018/19, as the wood line up is strong enough. The resort, hotel, sports complex are large investments but are a short term burst higher than normal, that's what CF was conveying to investors. That extreme number will not be the norm was the message to the investors. CF however has been steadily increasing capital investments if you look at the numbers over last 7 years or so. The breakers expansion was predicated on the success of the other recent renovation. If you look at the hotel/resort revenue numbers they went up nicely after the last renovation a few years back. Nice ROI. The sports complex will likely also give a nice ROI, as attendees to the tournaments will spend a day at the park and many will stay at the CP hotels.

 

If the giga "made more sense" then they would have built the giga. As far as the financials and how much they're willing to spend on capex, they made it pretty clear that last year was more than they would generally spend and this year's capex reflects that. Sure there's always going to be steady growth each year (on average), but that doesn't translate to "Let's put a giga coaster at Kings Island in 2017". It's clearly not in the budget, if it was they would have built it or at least spent that extra capital elsewhere.

 

There's really no counter argument, if the park wanted to spend more money they would have and if they thought a giga made more sense than Mystic Timbers they would have bought one.

 

Of course they care about anniversaries. It's something they can market without spending any money.

 

Of course, but the initial comment was directed at the people that think "anniversary year" = "blow the budget on a massive new coaster".

 

Edit....oh wait, here it is!

 

 

I sense a coasterbill comment coming shortly.

 

Glad I could be of service

 

 

As per usual as you don't read and thus miss the point. It makes no sense in a park with 3 woodies, 2 good ones, to get a 4th woody and not the Giga first. They should not have not get a coaster in 2017 and put off getting a coaster till 2018/2019 to better round out the line up. Save the 10M you spent on the GCI woody towards a GIga in 1 or 2 years. If you have enough for the year, delay a yr and that takes care of the spike year. The Giga is going to bring more enthusiasts and more GP's than another woody, no matter how much you try to hype it. CP got a bumpin attendance and a Dive is not even close to as good as any Giga. On capital expenditures the last 6 years it's been 75M, 90, 96, 120, 176, 160+, and the possibility of going over that by a bit.

[thrillseeker4552]

^I think Cedar Fair has proven to us over the last 5 years that they know what they're doing. If a Giga made more financial sense, they would have gone with a Giga. Mystic Timbers really is a good addition to the park and I see no reason to get all worked up over hypotheticals.

[storms555]

^^I agree a giga would be better! If they put it off and saved up more for a giga and if a giga is out of reach how about a wicked RMC?? Either new or one of the coasters already there modified as one! Both gigas and RMCs are way more fun then a mid sized family friendly coaster wood or steel. At this point its nothing to do with wood vs steel but more so thrill vs family friendly. More people will flock for the big new OH YEAH!! thrill vs the "coaster me,mommy, big sissy, and gramma can ride toget-er!" Which would you plan a trip for?

[coasterbill]

As per usual as you don't read and thus miss the point.

 

Oh I got the point... the point is that like always you think you know more than the professionals who do this for a living and think that capital expenditures should be based on things like wood to steel coaster ratios (which only enthusiasts care about) instead of projected ROI numbers.

 

If they thought it made more sense not to build Mystic Timbers this year and instead wait 2 years and build a giga coaster then why didn't they do that? Answer the question... and then submit an application since you're clearly more qualified to make capex decisions for Cedar Fair than the professionals who get paid to do that for a living.

 

I'm all for speculating about what we want parks to do but acting as if you know more than they do about how they should spend their money when they have access to infinitely more information and data and have far greater experience and qualifications than we do is ridiculous.

[eugjackson]

As per usual as you don't read and thus miss the point.

 

Oh I got the point... the point is that like always you think you know more than the professionals who do this for a living and think that capital expenditures should be based on things like wood to steel coaster ratios instead of projected ROI numbers.

 

If they thought it made more sense not to build Mystic Timbers this year and instead wait 2 years and build a giga coaster then why didn't they do that? Answer the question... and then submit an application since you're clearly more qualified to make capex decisions for Cedar Fair than the professionals who get paid to do that for a living.

 

I'm all for speculating about what we want parks to do but acting as if you know more than they do about how they should spend their money when they have access to infinitely more information and data and have far greater experience and qualifications than we do then you end up sounding ridiculous.

 

 

LOL..Can you read. It was all about ROI's and it's in several posts. You as usual are whining and do your continuously regurgitated post when you have run out of logic for you argument. The park does not need 4 wood coasters, another family woody doesn't bring Gp's to the park and doesn't drive any more than normal season pass sales.

[jonskinny12]

Lol coasterbill whines all the time? That's a new one.

[coasterbill]

I'm not going to waste much time explaining this to you since I know you're a troll, but you've now avoided this point twice so I'll ask again...

 

If it would have been a better investment for them not to build Mystic Timbers and to build a giga instead, why didn't they? How come the Cedar Fair executives who have worked in the industry for decades and get paid to do this for a living never once thought of this "brilliant" idea and some random coaster enthusiast on the internet understands their business better than they do? Answer the question... we're still waiting.

[eugjackson]

I'm not going to waste much time explaining this to you since I know you're a troll, but you've now avoided this point twice so I'll ask again...

 

If it would have been a better investment for them not to build Mystic Timbers and to build a giga instead, why didn't they? How come the Cedar Fair executives who have worked in the industry for decades and get paid to do this for a living never once thought of this "brilliant" idea and some random coaster enthusiast on the internet understands their business better than they do? Answer the question... we're still waiting.

 

 

You're hilarious. CF nearly went bankrupt and SF went bankrupt. A bunch of other parks have gone bankrupt. Both CP and SF did b/c they made bad investments. So the logic that these execs are so brilliant and not fallible is nonsensical by history. In fact, if these execs and parks got more input from GP's and enthusiasts they might not have so many financial issues over history. The simple fact , is a GCI woody isn't a draw like a Giga or even a RMC. A Giga is a forever draw b/c there are only 4 in N. America. A Giga 1 or 2 years down the line after the capex spike would draw more people or even a RMC of Racer in 1 or 2 years. The RMC Racer would cost about the same or less than Mystic Timbers but with way more buzz.

[coasterbill]

if these execs and parks got more input from GP's and enthusiasts they might not have so many financial issues over history

 

 

The fact that you legitimately believe that you somehow know more than they do is an amazing display of enthusiast arrogance. Nobody claimed that these people never made mistakes, but you have no qualifications whatsoever and they have access to far more information about their business than you do.

 

By your logic, you might as well go to someone who spend a few hours reading Web MD than a licensed physician because doctors occasionally make mistakes. No thanks, I'll take my chances with the people that have been working in the field for decades over some guy with limited access to information who's talking out of his a** on an online forum.

[BigBad]

Certainly the enthusiast community would be able to put together a park that would be fun to visit. Regardless of your stance on Mystic Timbers vs Giga as a decision made by the park, would you rather KI add Mystic Timbers or Diamondback 325?

 

But we're coaster enthusiasts. We better be able to think of good coaster ideas!

 

The people who run the park companies certainly do make mistakes, but I can't go so far as to say that they'd be better off with us making their financial decisions.

[CP Maverick]

Kings Island's market share is not growing. It is not a destination park, like Cedar Point. So you need to ask, did CF see enough ROI after building Leviathan up in Toronto? Has Carowinds seen significant growth since the install of Fury? They are very likely looking at Kentucky Kingdom and Holiday World when deciding what to do with Kings Island, as the only comparison to Cedar Point should be one of relative trends. Mystic Timbers is a safe investment that should pull market share from the other local attractions, and isn't big enough to have a negative effect on Cedar Point. Building a $30-40 million giga coaster will increase market share, but are they going to hurt their own revenue streams in doing so? Mystic Timbers could, for all we know, be a response to the growth seen by HW and KK in the last few years. If I had access to their market research and revenue numbers I could give a more accurate answer.

 

Needless to say, I find Mystic Timbers to be a good decision at a park that is known for having good wooden coasters. I have no doubt that Voyage was built a few hours away to take attention away from The Beast and it's legacy.