Kings Island (KI) Discussion Thread

[KBrylczyk]

It's not like B&M ever makes bad rides.

 

Allow me to direct your attention to 3/4's of their hyper/giga coasters and basically all of their coasters since 2005, excluding wingriders. I enjoy the wingriders for what they are. I never expected them to be forceful.

[coasterbill]

People who are really in denial will mention the wheels, the temperature or speculate that the trains may not have had water dummies in them but give me a break. It will get a little bit faster, but it's probably not going to be that much faster.

 

I nailed that one...

 

Even if you forget about the speed which would be ridiculous, just look at the construction of that barrel roll. I could play an entire game of Risk in the time it takes that thing to make it through that barrel roll. It's really spread out, it's not tight or snappy at all like the older B&M coasters, not even close... and it doesn't matter how hard you try to convince yourself otherwise.

[Coaster19]

I thought that barrel roll was already planed to be a zero g roll. Correct me if I am wrong. I agree on the forceless factor but do insist that it will be fun.

[B&MBoy1982]

You guys are complaining about the way B&M is building their modern coasters, but shouldn't the blame go to the parks?

 

The parks contact manufacturers and tell them what they want in the park.

 

Like the Family Inverted Coaster in Happy Valley. The park said, "This is what we want, can you do it?" It isn't B&M knocking off Vekoma, they are just doing what the customer asks.

[Diamondbacker27]

That's kind of what I was trying to say earlier. Kings Island is aiming at everyone, not just coaster nuts. They want to incorporate a little bit of everything. The GP isn't going to want a lot of forces, so therefore Kings Island doesn't include that many. I'm not even sure why we are discussing how the ride is so force less and drawn out if none of us have rode it. Let's wait and ride before we judge.

[coasterbill]

I thought that barrel roll was already planed to be a zero g roll.

 

I kind of use the terms interchangeably. I know there's a difference but I don't know what it is.

 

You guys are complaining about the way B&M is building their modern coasters, but shouldn't the blame go to the parks?

 

I'm really not sure, you may have a point... but I have a hard time believing that people keep asking Intamin for awesome rides and only ask B&M for mediocre rides. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the manufacturer as well as the parks... maybe someone can enlighten me on how this process usually works though because I'm just guessing.

 

By the way, I'm not really talking about the family coaster. Obviously I don't expect that to be a thrill machine. lol

 

The GP isn't going to want a lot of forces, so therefore Kings Island doesn't include that many.

 

And you came to this conclusion how? At my home park (Six Flags Great Adventure), Kingda Ka and El Toro have some of the longest lines in the park. At Cedar Point, Raptor has a 1-2 hour line pretty much every morning in the summer, as does Top Thrill Dragster and Maverick (later in the day). At pretty much every park with a crazy Intamin or RMC coaster it's the most popular or one of the most popular rides in the park. Are we supposed to believe that those lines consist of only enthusiasts?

 

I'm not even sure why we are discussing how the ride is so force less and drawn out if none of us have rode it. Let's wait and ride before we judge.

 

Generally this would seem like the most logical approach but look at how much activity this thread has seen today. People love speculating about rides, we wouldn't have much to do all off-season otherwise.

 

And in the case of B&M I think you can speculate because every ride they've built in the last 10 years has felt pretty much the same (with very few exceptions). I like all of them, but except for Tatsu and Gatekeeper (which is forceless but I like the gimmick), I don't love any of them.

[A.J.]

You guys are complaining about the way B&M is building their modern coasters, but shouldn't the blame go to the parks?

 

I'm really not sure, you may have a point... but I have a hard time believing that people keep asking Intamin for awesome rides and only ask B&M for mediocre rides. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the manufacturer as well as the parks... maybe someone can enlighten me on how this process usually works though because I'm just guessing.

To my understanding, and purely from a technical perspective -

 

The park has a space that they want to fill with a ride or attraction. They go out and ask several manufacturers (or one if they have something specific in mind) about what they can design to fit the space. The manufacturers do their jobs, get back to the park and the park chooses a design that they like. From there the park can sign the dotted line or ask for the design to be revised based on certain parameters (if it's too intense, not intense enough, not tall enough, etc).

 

This doesn't necessarily take into account the thematic elements, which could be designed in-house by the park or outsourced.

[DBru]

The GP isn't going to want a lot of forces, so therefore Kings Island doesn't include that many.

 

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. The GP is just as capable of telling when a ride is lame as we are.

 

I'm really excited for Banshee. It looks beautiful and Kings Island severely needed a new, giant people eater. However, I am afraid that a lot of us will get off of it and think, "Meh...could've been better." Just like the enthusiast AND general public reaction was to GateKeeper.

 

My problem with Banshee isn't really that the layout includes elements that are huge and drawn out. It's the fact that the layout IS elements that are huge and drawn out. That's it. There's no character here. No unexpected changes in direction. No quick airtime opportunities. No creative interaction with the terrain. It's just a giant coaster on a hill that does nothing different than any other B&M.

 

Kumba has an unexpected pop of airtime before the cobra roll, a fun dive into a tunnel, and a hidden helix. Great Bear has an awesome first drop sequence, a zero-g followed by an airtime+laterals hop, and a funky transition into a corkscrew. Montu has a finale full of fun dips and twists and flips. What does Banshee have? Nuthin'. And that's the main reason I'm disappointed in what B&M came up with here.

[Superbatboy]

B&M is definitely the Toyota of the coaster world. Driving enthusiasts complain about Toyota's being bland and uneventful to drive. However the general public loves them, they are safe, reliable, and cheap to maintain much like B&M

[ajfelice]

I'm really excited for Banshee. It looks beautiful and Kings Island severely needed a new, giant people eater. However, I am afraid that a lot of us will get off of it and think, "Meh...could've been better." Just like the enthusiast AND general public reaction was to GateKeeper.

 

And that is why I'm going into Kings Island and riding Banshee with my same expectation for GateKeeper; a fun, solid ride. So I expect to have fun, but I do not expect any shakeups on my list of favorite coasters. Media Day for me is a social gathering more than just a chance to be the first to ride a decent ride. It stinks that B&M has gotten tame, but until signs show they are starting to struggle, I don't see this trend ending anytime soon.

[coasterbill]

Great Bear has an awesome first drop sequence, a zero-g followed by an airtime+laterals hop, and a funky transition into a corkscrew.

 

This is really off-topic but this ride gets absolutely no respect and it deserves some. It's a very solid coaster with a creative layout. I love the fake-out heading into the corkscrew that twists in the opposite direction of what you expect... it's the only inverted coaster I can think of that uses the obstructive nature of the trains to it's advantage by having an inversion that comes as a surprise to everyone not in the front row since they really can't see what's coming until they're already in the inversion.

 

Yes it's a short ride, but it's unique and that's rare for a B&M. Then again... it was built in 1998 right before B&M lost their creativity.

 

What does Banshee have? Nuthin'. And that's the main reason I'm disappointed in what B&M came up with here.

 

I agree 100%

[B&MBoy1982]

Another thing to remember, is to never judge a book by it's cover.

 

Coasters look slower from afar. The posted video was taken near Great Wolf Lodge, and zoomed in.

[SteveStL]

Lots of opinions and general B&M bashing going on here. King's Island will be a better park with Banshee and the newly named Bat. I would love to have it here in STL, along with everyone else who calls SFSTL their home park.

Would rather have SOB back ???

Edited April 11, 2014 by SteveStL

[linearinduction]

I love how people really think designing a coaster is what the Manufacturer wants, when they are actually designing what the park wants. It's not like parks go up to a Ride Manufacturer and say "Surprise Me!" People also have no idea how much it costs to maintain a ride, and that is probably why B&M are designing these Tamer and Less Aggressive Coasters. A park is going to look at a ride and say, where can we save some for bottom line. Take the "B&M Rattle" for instance, that is all caused by Worn Wheels (Nicks, Cuts, Ruts, etc.) on the Tire and/or need for the Rubber "Shock Absorbers" to be replaced on the Bogies. A tamer ride is going to require less labor and parts to maintain, which is good for both the Park and Consumer.

[robbalvey]

I love how people really think designing a coaster is what the Manufacturer wants, when they are actually designing what the park wants. It's not like parks go up to a Ride Manufacturer and say "Surprise Me!"

You'd be surprised to hear how often this actually happens! Ok, maybe not perhaps "Surprise me", but that a park will tell a ride company "we need a ride for this space. Come up with something." Often times a park will not actually know exactly what they want and will get bids from both wood and steel manufactures, for radically different designs, and THEN they will land on something.

 

I heard many stories that there were a lot of bids that were submitted for Gatekeeper, and that ride companies were basically told "We want something that goes over the new front entrance to the park." Or a park will go to a ride company and go "We need something new and recent - what have you got?"

 

So yes, while you are correct that it's very rare that a park says "surprise me", it's VERY common that a park will not give a ride company as many details as you'd think.

 

People also have no idea how much it costs to maintain a ride, and that is probably why B&M are designing these Tamer and Less Aggressive Coasters.

When B&M stopped using Stengal to design their rides, they stopped being as intense. I have no doubt in my mind that the change from more forceful B&Ms to tamer B&Ms designs had more to do with simply having different designers that are into different things than it had to do with maintenance costs.

 

You ask some of the parks who have those more intense B&Ms and a newer, tamer one in the same park, and they'll tell you that maintenance issues are the same.

 

As far as the recent B&M bashing here, all I'll say is this -

 

Has any of us really ridden a B&M that we didn't "like" and at least have "fun" on? It just so happens that they don't produce OMFG AWESOME RIDES like the used to, and I think that's why many of us get upset.

 

B&M went from producing AAA+ coasters to very solid B+ rides now. And a B+ ride is still really good, but it's not a AAA+

Edited April 11, 2014 by robbalvey

[linearinduction]

I love how people really think designing a coaster is what the Manufacturer wants, when they are actually designing what the park wants. It's not like parks go up to a Ride Manufacturer and say "Surprise Me!"

You'd be surprised to hear how often this actually happens! Ok, maybe not perhaps "Surprise me", but that a park will tell a ride company "we need a ride for this space. Come up with something." Often times a park will not actually know exactly what they want and will get bids from both wood and steel manufactures, for radically different designs, and THEN they will land on something.

 

I heard many stories that there were a lot of bids that were submitted for Gatekeeper, and that ride companies were basically told "We want something that goes over the new front entrance to the park." Or a park will go to a ride company and go "We need something new and recent - what have you got?"

 

So yes, while you are correct that it's very rare that a park says "surprise me", it's VERY common that a park will not give a ride company as many details as you'd think.

 

People also have no idea how much it costs to maintain a ride, and that is probably why B&M are designing these Tamer and Less Aggressive Coasters.

When B&M stopped using Stengal to design their rides, they stopped being as intense. I have no doubt in my mind that the change from more forceful B&Ms to tamer B&Ms designs had more to do with simply having different designers that are into different things than it had to do with maintenance costs.

 

You ask some of the parks who have those more intense B&Ms and a newer, tamer one in the same park, and they'll tell you that maintenance issues are the same.

 

As far as the recent B&M bashing here, all I'll say is this -

 

Has any of us really ridden a B&M that we didn't "like" and at least have "fun" on? It just so happens that they don't produce OMFG AWESOME RIDES like the used to, and I think that's why many of us get upset.

 

B&M went from producing AAA+ coasters to very solid B+ rides now. And a B+ ride is still really good, but it's not a AAA+

I should have been more clear. Dang Allergies! The park has the final say on what is built so they have control of what they want built. I also didn't mean to make it sound as though B&Ms have Maintenance Issues, Wheel Wear is something that requires constant Monitoring on Daily Safety Checks. The more Intense and Fast a Coaster is, the more Daily Wheel Wear it will have requiring more often wheel changes and thus labor. I'm just happy Congruent Silicone Wheels are no longer used.

 

Also Robb, did Stengel actually Design them or did his firm just do the Engineering, Calculations, and send them to the Fabricator?

[robbalvey]

Also Robb, did Stengel actually Design them or did his firm just do the Engineering, Calculations, and send them to the Fabricator?

From what I understand, Stengel did design for them. I know they did a lot of the early inverts (Katun, Batman, Pyrnees, Montu, Dueling Dragons, Nemesis, etc) as well as a number of others (Kumba, Dragon Khan, Hulk, Raging Bull, etc) and I *believe* the last design they did for B&M was Nemesis Inferno.

 

And then from that point on, all the design was brought in house, and things got much "tamer."

[linearinduction]

Also Robb, did Stengel actually Design them or did his firm just do the Engineering, Calculations, and send them to the Fabricator?

From what I understand, Stengel did design for them. I know they did a lot of the early inverts (Katun, Batman, Pyrnees, Montu, Dueling Dragons, Nemesis, etc) as well as a number of others (Kumba, Dragon Khan, Hulk, Raging Bull, etc) and I *believe* the last design they did for B&M was Nemesis Inferno.

 

And then from that point on, all the design was brought in house, and things got much "tamer."

Thank you very much kind sir.

[robbalvey]

The park has the final say on what is built so they have control of what they want built.

Well, sure, but that's like saying you go into a car dealership saying "I want a car" and then they present to you different options, and then it's up to you to select the option.

 

I guess all I was trying to say that is many times a park isn't quite sure what they want, and they DO go to ride manufactures to solicit ideas instead of the idea coming from the park. I know of one project in particular where the park went to about 8 different companies and said "We have this plot of land. Here's the size. We want something impressive. What have you got?"

 

On the flip side, there are parks that know EXACTLY what they want and work with the ride company on every aspect on a ride from the very start.

 

Same thing when I was in the game development business. So often a publisher would come to us as go "We have a slot open for a game in the fall. Got any ideas?" And then other would come to us and say "The license is Transfomers. It has to be a platformer/shooter. It needs to be on these systems. It needs to have this kind of controls. MAKE IT!"

[coasterlover420]

I think most coaster enthusiasts are correct to assume any side of this argument. Just as Robb has been saying, it's either "we want this exactly" or it's "what's new?" Or in Cedar Point's case usually "what can we do that's THIS tall and THIS fast" etc... However, I think it would be completely ignorant to assume that because one coaster was designed one way that the next coaster will be exactly the same or even similar. Every project is completely different, even when you see clones. Sometimes the supports may be different, sometimes the trains may have 7 cars, sometimes they'll have 8. The scope of the engineering is much more than simply saying that it's "because of maintenance" or "the GP will complain about the forces." Often times it's just simply what can be done combined with something they think is cool. If G forces were the only thing the engineers kept in mind, theme parks would actually be really boring, and nobody would ever want to visit. I just think we're coming into an era where forces are less important than other things such as comfort, excitement, theme, freedom, aesthetics, overall pleasantness, family-friendly, and many other factors. I feel like cost isn't something that's too big of a deal right now. If the park wants something, they make it happen no matter what. Even if they have to wait an extra year or two (or 7).

 

My common examples are coasters that the coaster community typically wonder why they are so highly ranked. Millennium Force is one for sure. Forceless? Maybe. Fun? Hell yeah! Family? 48" height requirement. Excitement? It's over 300 feet tall and goes faster than your car on the interstate. Freedom? Hell you probably won't find a smaller lap bar on any coaster of that size. Aesthetics? It's right on the freakin lake! Comfort? This is certainly not lacking, especially since the lap bars are so minimal. Theme? Well...not really. Overall, that's a good 6 out of 8 winning factors about that coaster. Any park anywhere would consider that an epic win in their book, even if coaster dorks are complaining about every little flaw they find.

 

If you want to enjoy Banshee, stop complaining about it and RIDE IT. You're basically just setting yourself up to be disappointed if you're complaining about a coaster that's just started testing. Don't compare it to other coasters, understand that it's unique and it's supposed to be. If King's Island wanted something that every park has, they would have gotten a clone of something, but they didn't. They wanted exactly what they have. I'd suggest showing up with no expectations whatsoever, and just have a good ride! There's really no sense in being an enthusiast if you complain about stupid stuff like this. In fact, it's kind of hard to understand why some people are when all they do is hate every new thing that comes out. I freakin love roller coasters, and regardless of forces, I'm going to ride them until I die and LOVE EVERY SECOND IT!!

[Diamondbacker27]

NEW TESTING VIDEO

 

 

Update* I was trying to make it easier for you peeps haha.

This is has been out for about a month I think. It was either posted here or on Kicentral before. I can't remeber.

[Diamondbacker27]

NEW TESTING VIDEO

 

 

Update* I was trying to make it easier for you peeps haha.

This is has been out for about a week or two I think. It was either posted here or on Kicentral before. I can't remeber.

[B&MBoy1982]

Judging a ride simply by an off ride video does not indicate how good or bad the ride experience is.

 

How about we ride it first before passing judgment.

[TyRush]

Judging a ride simply by an off ride video does not indicate how good or bad the ride experience is.

 

How about we ride it first before passing judgment.

Couldn't agree more. It ties in to the old cliché of "don't judge a book by its cover". How many times do we all judge a coaster's off-ride shot before actually riding it? All the time. Think of Skryush, the first POV the park posted and the first off-ride shots made it seems like a simple coaster with nothing special other than a 212ft hill. Well it just turns out to be an extreme air time machine. You can't predict forces by watching it, you have to ride it and feel it. Personally from the video in my eyes it looks to have decent speed through the inversions, maybe not +5G's I-305 black-out force, but quite honestly who cares until we actually ride it? Whatever it ends up being its better than a SBNO pile of firewood that it replaced.

[Fooz]

Skyrush's first test video looked crazy fast! Maybe not the best example.

 

Edit: just watched the original POV video again and it still looks insane.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Fooz