Speak to the Kraut

[KrautWithAltitude]

Hello everybody,

 

this thread is intended to exchange background knowledge about our beloved scream machines. Since I´ve been working in the coaster industry for more than five years now, and already got positive feedback on TPR about sharing what relatively little knowledge I have on rollercoasters, I figured it might be a good idea to start this topic.

 

Since I don´t want it to be my very own ubermenschen thread, everyone who thinks he has information worth sharing is very welcome, and all questions, be they from die-hard geeks or cute little infants, (who is who?) are vital too to keep the thing alive. This thread should stay clean of rumors and speculations as far as possible, in order to establish some quality time for the people reading it.

 

High aims? Perhaps... but totally worth a try, I guess

 

Norman

[robbalvey]

Thanks Norman! I think a lot of people may overwhelm you with questions! I'm really happy to see someone in the industry who doesn't mind taking on questions from the fans. You are a true "celebrity!"

 

BTW, I have posted something about EGF's trims in the Europe update thread if you want to tackle that one!

 

--Robb

[christianscoasters]

What exactly do you do in the coaster industry?

[KrautWithAltitude]

What exactly do you do in the coaster industry?

 

Here you go:

 

http://www.themeparkreview.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=615477&highlight=#615477

 

And also I´d like to repeat:

 

I´m always glad to tell as much as I can and know about coaster projects, so feel free to ask. Of course absolutely no information will be given out on any confidential matters, like upcoming roller coasters, specific technical problems and company secrets (not that I know of many...)

 

Norman

[lil jimmy norton]

Wow, this is freakin fantastic. Ok, so here is a question I always think about. How often to coasters get inspected? I have heard that they get inspected every morning, but I have been to parks pretty early in the morning, before opening, and have never seen anyone walking around, inspecting the coasters. Thanks, and if this question seems stupid, my sincerest apologies. The other questions I have might sound much more dumb.

[Hilltopper39]

Hey Norman, great idea for a topic here.

I've got a question, how did you initially get into the industry? I've recently graduated with a degree in mechanical engineering and am hoping to get involved in the roller coaster/amusement park industry at some point in my career and was just wondering how you got your start. thanks!!!

[omnio55]

^^well I can't answer you about every coaster but I have heard from Disney employee's that they ride the coasters/rides every morning and every night. Also when I worked there they gave the shop I worked at a special behind the scenes tour of Expedition everest and the Imagineer said that she was part of a team that walks and inspects the track every single night, and the team members also ride it, and switch what parts they are checking so they don't get bored of course.

[thrillerman1]

Norman this is great!

 

Do you know if it is possible to get that ever elusive Stengel book somehow? Please PM me if so...would love to own a copy. Thanks!

[KrautWithAltitude]

Ok, so here we go...

 

Wow, this is freakin fantastic. Ok, so here is a question I always think about. How often to coasters get inspected? I have heard that they get inspected every morning, but I have been to parks pretty early in the morning, before opening, and have never seen anyone walking around, inspecting the coasters. Thanks, and if this question seems stupid, my sincerest apologies. The other questions I have might sound much more dumb.

 

For insurance reasons, I´d say that every coaster must be checked regularly according to its technical instructions and documentation be taken thereof. Many (All? - I´m not sure) coasters must be checked daily on critical issues like safety devices, wheel assemblies, brakes etc. No serious operator would skip any of these inspections, since if anything would go wrong, besides possible casualties insurances wouldn´t pay, the coaster might be shut down for a long time, and people would avoid his park. So be sure that all the coasters are being checked, maybe at night, maybe even earlier in the morning in order to have time for possible repairs.

 

Hey Norman, great idea for a topic here.

I've got a question, how did you initially get into the industry? I've recently graduated with a degree in mechanical engineering and am hoping to get involved in the roller coaster/amusement park industry at some point in my career and was just wondering how you got your start. thanks!!!

 

Well, mostly out of luck, like most people do. You cannot plan this for your lifetime and expect a job in the coaster making business, since it is just to small. Back then I was unemployed and looking for a new job, so I gave engineering office Stengel a try, without many expectations since I knew how small a company they are. They didn´t hire me but offered me to work as a freelancer for them, to do CAD. From there on, everything went its way, and I was just lucky to have called the right company on the right day.

 

Norman this is great!

 

Do you know if it is possible to get that ever elusive Stengel book somehow? Please PM me if so...would love to own a copy. Thanks!

 

I´ve got no idea but to try ebay and amazon frequently. Though I´ve heard rumors about a reprint...

 

Norman

[robbalvey]

^^well I can't answer you about every coaster but I have heard from Disney employee's that they ride the coasters/rides every morning and every night. Also when I worked there they gave the shop I worked at a special behind the scenes tour of Expedition everest and the Imagineer said that she was part of a team that walks and inspects the track every single night, and the team members also ride it, and switch what parts they are checking so they don't get bored of course.

Hey Omnio, no offense but please let Norman answer the questions. This is his thread.

 

Thank you!

 

--Robb

[kraken613]

Hey,

 

This is a basic one. What coasters have you worked on?

[Johnny Upsidedown]

Hi Norm,,

 

I have a couple of questions.. or well lots of questions....

 

1. When a park wants a coaster, How many different designs are submitted to the approval of the park for building??

2. Does a park just say hey we want to have this type of coaster in this area and want it to have certain elements??

3. Does the park specify how many elements and which types or is it more of a buider suggestion type thing??

4. Does the designers have more control over what we get as an end product or is it more customer controlled??

5. How often do you do designs for parks that never happen do you do alot of "bid work" as in do you submit alot of designs that dont happen or is the industry more once a customer is on the hook you just have to get them what they want??

6. How many hours of CAD work is invovled in the design of the coaster??

7. How many times does the process go back and forth between park oweners for the designs that you come up with, as in say you design a ride for a park how much back and forth leg work has to be done to the designs to get the park happy with there end product??

8. Do you as a disigner make suggestions on color of the end product or is it more the parks idea of we want a blue and white coaster what can you do for me thing??

9.Do you have a certain predisged program with predesigned elemets that you more or less just cut and past elements that are proven ride worthy and you just add say element 1 with element 2 so on and so on to get a finilized product??

10. How much of the end product is really in the minds of the designers or more or less this is the type product we can get you and we can make certain modification to the design to fit a particular setup??

Thats it for now. Just some basic questions that I have wondered about pertaining to more of the How things are done. Please share what you can..

J>

[KrautWithAltitude]

Hey,

 

This is a basic one. What coasters have you worked on?

 

Ooops... some kind of Confidential Matter Alarm! But you might want to check out my homepage for some examples.

 

Norman

[dr.gumbo]

Great stuff, thank for spending time with us here.

 

I have one (maybe two) question, how long does it usually take to design a coaster and what processes do you have to go through?

[lil jimmy norton]

Thanks for your help man.

[AllenA07]

Not sure if you would really know this, but I'm curious how long the entire process takes. I'm talking from the first time a park decides it wants to add a coaster, to opening day? Is there a general bidding process that the park will go through when picking a company, or do they begin with the company already in mind?

[omnio55]

Since I don´t want it to be my very own ubermenschen thread, everyone who thinks he has information worth sharing is very welcome, and all questions, be they from die-hard geeks or cute little infants, (who is who?) are vital too to keep the thing alive. This thread should stay clean of rumors and speculations as far as possible, in order to establish some quality time for the people reading it.

 

Norman

 

It figures, I have good information and was following the rules of the person who started this thread. but your right it is his thread so I apologise...

[KrautWithAltitude]

Hi Norm,,

 

I have a couple of questions.. or well lots of questions....

 

1. When a park wants a coaster, How many different designs are submitted to the approval of the park for building??

2. Does a park just say hey we want to have this type of coaster in this area and want it to have certain elements??

3. Does the park specify how many elements and which types or is it more of a buider suggestion type thing??

4. Does the designers have more control over what we get as an end product or is it more customer controlled??

5. How often do you do designs for parks that never happen do you do alot of "bid work" as in do you submit alot of designs that dont happen or is the industry more once a customer is on the hook you just have to get them what they want??

6. How many hours of CAD work is invovled in the design of the coaster??

7. How many times does the process go back and forth between park oweners for the designs that you come up with, as in say you design a ride for a park how much back and forth leg work has to be done to the designs to get the park happy with there end product??

8. Do you as a disigner make suggestions on color of the end product or is it more the parks idea of we want a blue and white coaster what can you do for me thing??

9.Do you have a certain predisged program with predesigned elemets that you more or less just cut and past elements that are proven ride worthy and you just add say element 1 with element 2 so on and so on to get a finilized product??

10. How much of the end product is really in the minds of the designers or more or less this is the type product we can get you and we can make certain modification to the design to fit a particular setup??

Thats it for now. Just some basic questions that I have wondered about pertaining to more of the How things are done. Please share what you can..

J>

 

Hi Johnny,

 

let me see how much I can tell since these questions don´t belong directly to my work:

 

1. Usually as many designs as you can get done within a given time. Generally, customers love to have their layout changed weekly until the last possible second. It´s a calculated risk.

 

2. The executives usually know what kind of coaster they want and have more or less precise and viable ideas about it, some rely more on our experience and know-how, some insist on whacky ideas and need much more persuasin. It is depending on their own insight on the matter.

 

3. If they say "Look, we want a 10 inversion coaster, no matter what" you check the contract and go like "With pleasure sir!" The same with a customer who wants his coaster to be customized by people like us, who hardly do anything else for their living.

 

4. Both. Maybe you can read it out of the answers above. It is different for every coaster and customer, there is no general answer.

 

5. This also depends on the customers, some gather proposals from all over the world, some know they will only want (for instance) an Intamin or B&M. If bid work has to be done, it will be done, though nobody loves to go through all the hassle with it. But once things are settled, which can take years, the work gets done quickly and to the command of the customer (see 1.)

 

6. Drawing the columns for a middle size coaster (like Gerstlauer´s) takes about a couple of weeks. At the same time trains, misc. components, foundations, station etc. are designed, which also takes about the same amount of time. So everything should be done within at most two months. Don´t ask me how many hours, since I don´t know how many people are involved in other companies.

 

7. see 1. etc.

 

8. Some parks hire renowned TP designers, some want it painted the color of the chief´s undies, some chiefs ask their wives, and some seem not to care at all and are happy if the damn thing just won´t rust. At least, nobody asks me for colors - never

 

9. I don´t do track design, just drawings. So I use standard CAD software. But those who do use quite a lot of custom made or selfmade software to lay out the coaster. I dno´t know how these work exactly. This includes very much know how, so every company is on its own, concerning such software.

 

10. Pardon me?

 

Norman (needs a drink)

[KrautWithAltitude]

Since I don´t want it to be my very own ubermenschen thread, everyone who thinks he has information worth sharing is very welcome, and all questions, be they from die-hard geeks or cute little infants, (who is who?) are vital too to keep the thing alive. This thread should stay clean of rumors and speculations as far as possible, in order to establish some quality time for the people reading it.

 

Norman

 

It figures, I have good information and was following the rules of the person who started this thread. but your right it is his thread so I apologise...

 

I go with omnio.

 

Sorry, Robb

[KrautWithAltitude]

Great stuff, thank for spending time with us here.

 

I have one (maybe two) question, how long does it usually take to design a coaster and what processes do you have to go through?

 

Overall, design times are becoming ever shorter. Today, structure designs for an average steel coaster should be finished within three months, a woodie may take twice as long.

 

First thing to do is settle down exactly how the coaster will look like, if the customer is in a hurry or very modest, this will take a few weeks, but may also take several months in difficult environment, it just depends on too many things, since a lot of opinions and people are involved.

 

Only then it makes sense to start with the actual design mentioned above. First you specify the track layout accurately. Then you decide how many columns you need and how strong they need to be. Then you make the drawings for the column and track parts (my work) and send them to the workshops. At the same time other companies involved do their work, like designing the trains, brakes, lift etc.

 

Then everything gets built, which takes about another two months for your average steelie. Simultaneously the coaster is being assembled on site, another two or three months. This is the very rough summary of processes. From scratch to finish about 5 to 6 months. The better the design, the quicker and easier you get it finished. Everyone hates last minute changes

 

Norman

[KrautWithAltitude]

Not sure if you would really know this, but I'm curious how long the entire process takes. I'm talking from the first time a park decides it wants to add a coaster, to opening day? Is there a general bidding process that the park will go through when picking a company, or do they begin with the company already in mind?

 

I can´t give you a better answer than those already posted

[omnio55]

hey Norman, I do have a couple questions for you

1. I was wondering what version of cad you work with the most

2. what some of the common day to day problems you in counter with your line of work(if you can talk about it.)

3. What your favorite project you ever worked on was? (if its confidential I understand.)

Thank you so much for doing this and for your time.

[Johnny Upsidedown]

Thanks for all the great answers on the previous page Norman.

I have lots more but will add later on..

Couple simple questions..

 

1. Are you a coaster and park enthusiast??

2. What are some of your favorite rides if you are??

3. Do you get to do any preopening riding?? Like are you one of the lucky few that get to take the first rides on the coasters as in the first riders while the construction is still getting done (not like media events but first real passenger after the water dummys get a spin??

 

Thanks

[coasterbadboy]

Hey Norman,

 

Thanks for creating this! It's incredibly giving of you and your time. I know I appreciate all the answers.

 

My question: Do you (or someone else) ever get a chance to advise clients on 'best practices' when designing a coaster? I guess my question stems from some 'interesting' installations that I think weren't thought out completely. Like 'Led Zepplin' at Hard Rock Park. There is simply no reason whatsoever to have a mid-course brake on that thing. (In my opnion, of course.) Even big parks stack trains. If I were a designer, I would have told them NOT to have a MCB. Save the money for something else. Just run two trains. You'll hardly ever need to run three.

 

So, basically, I was wondering if the designers make any recommendations to the clients before they sign on the dotted line?

[Mechanic]

Thank you for taking the time to share your expertise Norman.

 

I'm curious as to how much aesthetics play in a roll in the design of coaster supports. Is it more of the traditional rule, "Form follows function", or are designs made to accomodate a certain "look" that a park may be going for? One coaster that comes to mind for me is Viper at SFMM. The supports on the turnaround after the vertical loop have always struck me as being designed to convey a sense of massive structure. Is that by chance, or is it a design consideration?