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Hersheypark (HP) Discussion Thread


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When he means trim, I took a walk along Park Blvd this evening and there are 3 trims on the ride that are less than a foot long in length. Before anyone gets worried, they do not look like they will ruin the ride (remember, according to the info above, it's pulling -2.0g's).

 

I'm curious, where are they? I trust that any trims they put on the ride won't ruin it (they'd have to trim a LOT of speed off to do that), but if they're looking to possibly trim the top speed down that would require them to be on the first drop.

 

Also, if they're looking to trim the top speed down, it seems like a slower lift rather than a set of trims would be a very simple solution.

They are located at the following locations and are mounted on brackets. The are less than half the length of the bars. I didn't have my camera along to take a photo, but there are pictures of the brackets:

643125212_DSC05575(Custom).JPG.06f0bfbbba10384baca7b3f7d4eae100.JPG

1449022543_DSC04567(Custom).JPG.4c1f7322a1958b663c7f5cac5c6ba330.JPG

442409922_DSC03394(Custom).JPG.5b47058aa7d88b29daaf46c268cf8815.JPG

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I'm 6'5" with shoes on, but I will be wearing flip flops and riding barefoot, so I should be ok.

You need to find the thinnest flip flops out there! Like those cheap, disposable, paper thin, foam things. The ones that come in like a sheet, and you "snap" them together.

Well I imagine that if I am riding barefoot, they have to measure me barefoot, and there is zero chance that I am taller than 6'5" barefoot.

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Logging official complaint here, so there's no confusion...

 

May have trims, really? Before I state my piece, let me just say that I understand that if it's creating forces that are deemed too much for the average rider, it needs to be slowed. I get that. But...

 

Why, with today's technology, is a ride designed that needs to be trimmed before it even opens? It's mind boggling. I couldn't understand it with I-305, I don't get it now. Are Intamin's calculators broken?

 

I understand that B&M coasters have had trims in recent years as well. But their's are different. They are mechanical brakes that can be turned on and off. They are there to be used if needed.

 

Intamin trims are simple fins, fixed to a bracket. If they are there, they are on.

 

For me, there is nothing that is more of a buzz kill on a ride than to feel it drag when it shouldn't - it's the one reason I didn't like I-305 as much as Millennium Force. I felt the late-hill trim was too much. I hope that these brakes either come off, or truly have minimal impact on the ride.

 

Again, I understand that these brakes are deemed necessary because of the forces these coasters create. But the question is, why are these coasters being designed that way?

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Skyrush, the first coaster to induce red outs Hopefully the 6'5 height limit will only be for the winged seats. I remember when Sky Rocket had a height limit of 6 feet just for the 4th row. Can't wait to start reading peoples experiences on this ride. Looks like a really fun coaster.

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I don't normally respond, but in this case, I think I can warrant a small response. Coming from an mechanical engineers perspective - sometimes simulations/design just don't tell the whole story. I designed and built a device a couple years back that took tons of trial and error. Not to get too much into the engineering behind it, but it was a beam design with a strain gauge attached to it to take force readings - pretty simple mechanical principles. Well, I ran hundreds of simulations with Solidworks (one of the best programs for such things) and used the results to refine my design. By the time it was machined it should have been basically a bulletproof design - WRONG. About 15 design iterations later I finally got it to work right. The theoretical computer program was about 7% of what was really happening when I built the thing. It was close, but not quite right.

 

Upscale that and take all the complexities of a coaster into consideration and it truly is amazing they can get as close as they do in the engineering of something like this. What if their simulations/calculations were off 7%. If they predicted 70 mph then - wallah! She's running 75 mpg when built. That 5 mph is going to make a lot more difference in what goes on than what you think. I'm pretty certain that with the heights and speed we are seeing today and the forces that are being put on structures - they're doing a darn fine job. Computers and calculations can only tell you so much!

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I'm pretty certain that with the heights and speed we are seeing today and the forces that are being put on structures - they're doing a darn fine job. Computers and calculations can only tell you so much!

 

I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate your insight. I don't need to get into what I do for a living, but I can say that I'm not engineering illiterate either...

 

But I don't really buy the "what's on the computer isn't what always comes out in real life" line of thought when dealing with today's roller coasters. The industry, let alone Intamin, has been building these things for quite some time. If this was the first steel 200 foot roller coaster ever built, then I'd understand if it needed tweaked in real life.

 

Skyrush, from a layout perspective, is really nothing new, though I do believe the new train design influenced the layout. But from a layout perspective, if it truly needs to be trimmed already, then there was yet again another design flaw on Intamin's part, or maybe Hershey's.

 

And ultimately, though I'm all for pushing limits, if you design something that gets too close to the "too much" line that you end up crossing the line in actuality, and you have to adjust (trim) later, then you wen too far in the design phase.

 

I do think Skyrush will kick some serious tail in a week. I wish that there were no trim fins - and that they could slow the lift down to get the same affect. If there has to be brake fins, I like that there are three mini-trims - that is an excellent idea that should keep their impact minimal. We'll know soon enough...

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They said trimming from 76.3 to 76 mph. Are we making an issue about .3 mph? Speeds, Forces, are all unique to every ride... Unless its a clone, I don't think it's fair to say that they ought to have practice at the particular ride when its new in its own right. No coaster project is the same. Ride it and be happy! IF not.. don't ride it.

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They said trimming from 76.3 to 76 mph. Are we making an issue about .3 mph? Speeds, Forces, are all unique to every ride... Unless its a clone, I don't think it's fair to say that they ought to have practice at the particular ride when its new in its own right. No coaster project is the same. Ride it and be happy! IF not.. don't ride it.

 

Nope, we're talking about the three trim brake fins that have been reported as being installed. I never made a specific complaint about Skyrush, just Intamin in general. Pay attention. Thanks.

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Just think of it this way. If everything was always exactly the same as in computer calculations, what would the point of the testing phase be? To work out any discrepancies between simulations and reality. Like a slight trimming to bring the ride into what Intamin deems the safe operating speed range. It happens in many industries. Look at crash testing for automobiles, engineering for innovative buildings, electronics, etc. Nothing is ever exactly as a simulation will suggest.

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I know some of you on here are engineers (as a chemist I only have the basic physics needed for my degree) and I am wondering does that 0.3 mph really impact the g forces a rider will feel? I'm a little lost as to all the debate and why they would trim it rather than, say, slow the lift speed slightly. Anybody care to shed light for me?

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As a mechanical engineer (but not in the roller coaster field), I'll chime in here too. No matter how much experience you have, simulations and equations are really only good to within 10% or so at best. Depending on what I'm designing, I may be required to allow for my calculations to be off by as much as 40%. This is true even with simple systems, like the cantilevered beam described above, so when you get a roller coaster that has hundreds of moving parts, viscous flow from the various lubricants, air resistance, nonlinear rolling resistance from viscoelastic wheels, vibration damping from soil with a variable water content because a creek runs under the ride, and dozens of other factors that I'm sure exist but I'm not aware of, getting within 10% would be VERY impressive. I went to a conference on simulation last year, and saw presentations by companies with a lot more money and experience than Intamin (Boeing, Lockheed, GE, etc.), and even they were bragging about techniques with 10% errors.

 

Engineers deal with this uncertainty with what one of my professors back in school called the "M"s: mechanical models (prototypes), margin, and mitigation. This whole ride is already a prototype, so that's out. Adding larger margin to their calculations would work, but it would mean that the ride would be tamer. In the case of speed, mitigation makes a lot of sense: you can design right to the limits, and add trims if your model error is in the wrong direction. Different companies probably have different strategies (we've seen S&S make lots of prototypes, B&M probably allows bigger margins, etc.).

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I know some of you on here are engineers (as a chemist I only have the basic physics needed for my degree) and I am wondering does that 0.3 mph really impact the g forces a rider will feel? I'm a little lost as to all the debate and why they would trim it rather than, say, slow the lift speed slightly. Anybody care to shed light for me?

 

Due to the non-linear nature of air resistance, it may take a large change in speed at the top of the lift to change the speed at the bottom by 0.3 mph. In the extreme case, such as skydiving, the speed at the top of the fall doesn't change the end speed at all because the falling object reaches terminal velocity. Drastically slowing the lift would reduce capacity of the ride.

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I know some of you on here are engineers (as a chemist I only have the basic physics needed for my degree) and I am wondering does that 0.3 mph really impact the g forces a rider will feel? I'm a little lost as to all the debate and why they would trim it rather than, say, slow the lift speed slightly. Anybody care to shed light for me?

 

Due to the non-linear nature of air resistance, it may take a large change in speed at the top of the lift to change the speed at the bottom by 0.3 mph. In the extreme case, such as skydiving, the speed at the top of the fall doesn't change the end speed at all because the falling object reaches terminal velocity. Drastically slowing the lift would reduce capacity of the ride.

 

Gotcha! I can see simply from capacity standpoint now why they would trim it rather than slow the lift. Thanks!!

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^Wow, skipped right over that post, just thought it was yet another construction update.

 

Edit: To add on, if the brackets were there from the beginning, then that shows that they were anticipating the use of trims. So all the bitching and moaning about adding them after testing can stop right now. I think this just goes to show that, like 305, the testing did its job and they got the data they needed, so they are making necessary adjustments. So I guess Intamin does know what they are doing, after all.

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^^Exactly. I305 was designed with the trims on that airtime hill at the end so that they could fit the two airtime hills and last twist in, winding around the near turnaround to hit the brakes in the right spot. Those trims are there so that the ride fits together the way it does, and they were meant to be there from the beginning. There was no screw-up in the design, they were placed there at the start.

 

These brackets have been installed since day one, not necessarily because they KNEW they were going to need trims but because they had no real-world data on these new trains in running their computer simulations. and thought that they MIGHT need them depending on which end of the envelope the ride ran on. As it turns out, it runs at the very high end of the envelope, so trimming down a touch is necessary. Go ahead and complain about how everyone at Intamin is incompetent or whatever you believe, but they're working with a train design completely new to them on a ride that pushes the limits, just as they're famous for doing. And I'd take a couple brake fins on an Intamin over any other type of hyper any day.

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Wait, so all the speculation about those brackets being trims was true???

 

 

Anyways -2g's? I know it's only going to be for a split second but isn't that a little extreme?

 

http://nolimits-exchange.com/news/g-force-lesson/35

 

nolimits-exchange says these are the official files that the engineers use for their designs, so being a mechanical engineering student with the intent of designing roller coasters, I use these when I am building coasters in Newton/NL (I have made a couple dozen over the past year, but since I know industry professionals actually look up TPR, that's why you have only seen one: Upper Gorge Express.) So -2 G's CAN be reached, but it must step away from that value after 0.2 seconds. The G's have to be above -1.5 after 0.5 seconds.

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And I'd take a couple brake fins on an Intamin over any other type of hyper any day.

I just want to say I agree with everything you've said. I din't think these <12in trims will affect the insane -2g airtime. Plus, the first "trim" comes in the middle of the second airtime hill. Some people love to complain and be negative all the time. Magnum PA has said negative things about this ride since the beginning. Right now, he's just searching for things to be negative about.

 

As for me, I have full trust that Intamin has created an insane top-10 type of coaster, a bit short, but completely justified due to the space constraints. I love it and am very excited to hear about opening!

 

EDIT: And here's a picture of one so-called trim. (Posted on Project 2012 Facebook)

1790111826_579361_294258340667988_100002514735421_626795_119343254_n(1).jpg.37f168e2fb4d90de2b14d5bd38c69af9.jpg

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