Article: Coaster Wars II: Magic Mountain vs. Cedar Point

[FeelTheFORCE]

^^ Yeah, I believe I heard somewhere that they are working on getting a good drop ride. SFMM is so much better than CP in so many ways. I, myself am trying to pull some strings and get back out there either next year or the year after. When you go, you will love it. It just has so much to offer. When I went, not once did I stop and think that there was nothing else to do. The thing is, too, that I only rode 2 coasters twice, X and Tatsu, the others I only rode once and I was still kept busy the entire day.

[65skylark]

After hearing so much praise about Cedar Point, I was pretty disappointed with my first visit last year. The employees were not overly friendly, the operations were no where near as efficient as I had always heard, and the rain policy was beyond a joke. Having said that, it was still a fun day and I do slightly prefer their coaster line up over SFMM's.

 

I also think it is pretty difficult to really compare the two parks. They are just very different.

 

And for all the scenery people that like seeing the mountains, I'd take the view of Lake Erie from the top of MF over any view of the rolling brown hills that SoCal people call mountains any day. But that's just me.

[VivaLaVibora]

^It would be silly to promote SFMM nationally as a destination park right now because they don't have any on property hotels. Cedar Point is limited by being a seasonal park in a fairly isolated location. That being said, I do think a lot of the larger US parks should be reinvented as resort type places with on property hotels, decent food, high end shows, etc.

 

Than those two parks shouldn't act like destination parks because that's what they were and are doing. Magic Mountain has hotels around it, but they aren't Magic Mountain's. Cedar Point is limited to an island, but look at it's huge attendance. It's no all year round park, but that's pretty big for being an isolated park. I think someone said that Busch Gardens Williamsburg isn't by much of anything, and they are getting 4 million +.

 

Magic Mountain could have invested in hotels in front of the park if they could have bought that land. Maybe, they never could buy that land. That sign at Magic Mountain is really bad, and old. They need a new one.

[RaptorBoyASU]

The only crew that impressed me at all was Raptor: they were actually doing a great job with three trains.

 

REALLY? When I went I was totally let down by what that crew has become. I guess this is why you guys all hate Knott's, because it used to be so much better.

 

When I went, I saw all 3 trains stack at least once, and saw the 2nd train stop behind the station every time. Things we were blasted for when I worked there.

 

Stacking all 3 was basically a reason to have an area sup up on platform on your ass (they could see the ride from the park op office). The goal was to hit as many intervals (returning trains don't stop at all and glide right back into the station) as possible during a shift. We would regularly hit 30-40 in a row. A good day we could hit almost 100 until a fatty or a disabled guest slowed things down.

 

A full queue was a 45-50 min wait (unless you wanted the front row) back in 01, this past year it took 80 min to get through that same queue. I figure they must only be hitting 1000-1150/hr, vs the 1450+ we were expected to hit.

 

They still do better than almost any park out there, but it's still not the same.

[PURE]

And for all the scenery people that like seeing the mountains, I'd take the view of Lake Erie from the top of MF over any view of the rolling brown hills that SoCal people call mountains any day. But that's just me.

 

And I'll take a head-first X over a over-hyped giga-coaster any day. You can see that same view from Power Tower or the Ferris Wheel.

 

It really doesn't matter, I like going to both parks reguardless.

[cfc]

I think someone said that Busch Gardens Williamsburg isn't by much of anything, and they are getting 4 million +.

 

 

This is a bit off-topic, but BGE is located in a pretty busy tourist area--Colonial Williamsburg is nearby, and there's fairly easy access to Virginia Beach and the Outer Banks of North Carolina. Plus, next to northern Virginia, this is the most densely populated area in the state.

 

"Isn't by much of anything"? I don't think I'd say that.

[slither37]

Ah, the endless peeing contest between SFMM and CP.

 

I have never been to SFMM and I can tell there are a lot of rides there that I would like. Does it really matter? Let them both claim the title. I will still go to CP many times this summer and be very happy with the coasters they have, excepting mean streak, of course.

 

After mean streak burns down, (here's to hoping). I am wishing for a B&M floorless or even a Farenheit clone.

 

One advantage that SFMM has, and if someone in SoCal could correct me if I am wrong, is that SFMM has much more room to build future coasters. This is one reason why I do see mean streak coming down at some point. And for the record, I kind of still like Blue Streak.

[coolhandluke]

One thing Magic Mountain has that CP could really use more of is inversions. Scream, Viper, Riddler, Batman, Tatsu, X2, Deja Vu, and Revolution. Raptor, Mantis, Corkscrew, and Maverick. Hell, Scream, Viper, and Revolution have as many inversions as all of CP. I think this goes to show how the parks have different styles of coasters, as MM has tons of inverting coaster styles and CP has tons of non-inverting styles (except the ever-important pre-fab...). I think CP could help their case by getting a multi-looper or two over the years (in addition to the pre-fab... ). Maverick was certainly a hit, but inversion counts of 6, 4, 3, and 2 for a 17-coaster park just seems a little disproportional to me.

[TheGreatOne]

Having more does not mean better.

CP has none of my favorites in any class.

Others will disagree, but I find CP has only 3 coasters that I want to ride.

SFMM has 5, so , for me, SFMM wins.

Titles don't mean a thing. I have yet to go to a park that I did not enjoy.

( I do my homework and go to parks that I have an interest in )

So it's all good.

If SFMM wants to claim the "Title" , fine.

If CP claims the "Title" , fine.

 

 

THIS. Times a million.

 

CP has a ton of coasters, but too many are just one big trick and it's done (MF, Dragster, Wicked Twister). I was incredibly happy they put a roller coaster like Maverick in that is so well-rounded.

 

In the end, records don't mean anything except a little free marketing.

 

I like SFMM's lineup a lot better than CP's. They have a better variety of well-rounded roller coasters.

[Carnage]

After mean streak burns down, (here's to hoping). I am wishing for a B&M floorless or even a Farenheit clone.

 

Maverick is already next to Mean Streak. (which is pretty much like Farenheit)

[FeelTheFORCE]

After mean streak burns down, (here's to hoping). I am wishing for a B&M floorless or even a Farenheit clone.

 

Maverick is already next to Mean Streak. (which is pretty much like Farenheit)

 

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Besides, I think CP is done with Intamin for a while after the Maverick heartline roll fiasco.

 

I got into this discussion on the TPOL forums. I think that the next coaster at Cedar Point is either going to be a B&M Dive Machine at the front of the park (because it would also take care of the floorless aspect), or a GCI woodie in CCMR's current position. Screamscape posted a rumor to look for an "older steel coaster" to be removed from CP in the near future, and I think CCMR is the best possibility. Plus, putting a GCI woodie in it's place would be perfect. It's relatively small, so spacing wouldn't be too much of an issue, and it's a family coaster that would be replacing a previous family coaster. Especially since the "coaster race" is temporarily over, I think that this has a legitimate chance of happening. Lastly, "Renagade" fits perfectly with Frontiertown. Just some thoughts to think about.

[dougr]

^It would be silly to promote SFMM nationally as a destination park right now because they don't have any on property hotels. Cedar Point is limited by being a seasonal park in a fairly isolated location. That being said, I do think a lot of the larger US parks should be reinvented as resort type places with on property hotels, decent food, high end shows, etc.

 

Than those two parks shouldn't act like destination parks because that's what they were and are doing. Magic Mountain has hotels around it, but they aren't Magic Mountain's. Cedar Point is limited to an island, but look at it's huge attendance. It's no all year round park, but that's pretty big for being an isolated park. I think someone said that Busch Gardens Williamsburg isn't by much of anything, and they are getting 4 million +.

 

Magic Mountain could have invested in hotels in front of the park if they could have bought that land. Maybe, they never could buy that land. That sign at Magic Mountain is really bad, and old. They need a new one.

 

SFMM has seriously got to get in with the SoCal promotions. I mean, buying a Coke can when you're in the area? Lame. A lot of people who go to SoCal aren't in an area that gets Six Flags ads. Disney has all that spliff down, though. There are ads for Disneyland that run on Vancouver, BC stations. Six Flags needs to poach off those tourists that head down to .

Look at Knott's, and Universal and the San Diego Zoo and Seaworld. Almost EVERY tour has those 4 parks in their packages. 3 of those parks are bundled with Disney in the Southern California citypass. What's wrong with adding to the Citypass? Or they could join USH in a less lame competing Hollywood Citypass.

I for one would LOVE a Hollywood Citypass with one or a couple of days of USH AND SFMM.

[Carnage]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Besides, I think CP is done with Intamin for a while after the Maverick heartline roll fiasco.

 

Just like they were done with them after TTD's many problems?

 

And Wicked Twisters modifications following stress fractures in the track?

 

Or MFs techical problems?

[AllenA07]

I wish SFMM would stop being done with Intamin! Now that new people are in charge I'm actually very interested in seeing if Intamin returns to the park.

[FeelTheFORCE]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Besides, I think CP is done with Intamin for a while after the Maverick heartline roll fiasco.

 

Just like they were done with them after TTD's many problems?

 

And Wicked Twisters modifications following stress fractures in the track?

 

Or MFs techical problems?

 

They specifically blamed Intamin, though at Coastermania 2007 and hinted that they were done with them for a while. They probably cut Intamin slack in the past, because they still delivered a quality product in the end, and also because, besides WT, the problems were mostly maintenance and working out bugs on Cedar Point's part, little to do with Intamin, but this was probably the "last straw." Not only that, but what else from Intamin, coaster-wise and besides an Intamin pre-fab woodie, is there to build? They have pretty much every type of Intamin coaster there is. Here is where I am getting this information.

 

Some notable quotes:

 

-First off, a gentleman asked the panel if they had any reservations about going back to Intamin after TTD. Following some small laughter by the panelists, which included about seven executives to which I can't remember any but Mr. Kinzel specifically, the answer was no. Kinzel expressed that he was dismayed that Maverick opened a couple weeks later than planned, and placed blame on the manufacturer, but admitted that Intamin delivered a satisfying product in the end.

 

-I then grabbed the mic and asked if at anytime during the planning stages with Intamin, was an Intamin woodie considered? His answer: NO. I followed up by asking will there ever be? his answer once again: NO. Ok then, thanks. None of it was demeaning, but the answers were clear and concise. Folks, I wouldn't go placing any bets on Intamin wood showing up at the point anytime soon.

 

-They were, however, very encouraged by working with GCI and Renegade. The vibe was that Renegade will be a measuring stick for future wood installations at CF parks.

 

-There will definitely NOT be any B&M flyer at CP, ever.

 

-A dive machine is not out of the question.

 

Once again, I am not saying that these are going to happen, guaranteed to happen, or anything of the sort. I am simply saying that they are something to think about, and that's all.

[Teacups Make Me Sick]

Not like this should really be equated into which park is better because they are both good parks and its an individual assessment as to which park is better.

 

BUT

 

CP is in a horrible location...sorry for those who live there...but when I went...we tried to go jet skiing, CP charges an arm and a leg. Scratch that. We went to the OTB (off-track betting) that is outside of CP....that deserves a check. But then SF has indian casinos and LV a few hours away.

 

The Erie Perch is good.

 

However, it rained like 50% of the time we were there and there was NOTHING to do. At least, SF is in a desert and you don't have to worry about losing ride time b/c of a few rain drops.

[VivaLaVibora]

They had problems with El Toro at Six Flags Great Adventure. That's a problem company, Intamin. The chain lift at SFNE for Superman broke, and they had to get a new one. You can talk about Drop Tower accident, and you can talk about the Superman accident.

 

I really want to see more companies get Premier rides, but that company had that accident at SFGAdv. I don't think the maintenance is up to standard though at that park. The problem is that they have a lot of low capacity rides too, but I think they are awesome.

[PURE]

 

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Besides, I think CP is done with Intamin for a while after the Maverick heartline roll fiasco.

 

How was it a fiasco?

 

New pieces were fabricated and the problem was solved, I think it took all of 2 weeks to fix the problem.

 

I don't care what CP gets, I just wish they would take the time to make more quality, not more quantity of rides.

[robbalvey]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Besides, I think CP is done with Intamin for a while after the Maverick heartline roll fiasco.

 

Just like they were done with them after TTD's many problems?

 

And Wicked Twisters modifications following stress fractures in the track?

 

Or MFs techical problems?

Ugh, I agree.

 

I'm SO sick of these fanboys trying to second guess the business decisions of a park.

 

Everyone said "Oh they are done with Intamin" after Millennium Force, after WT, after TTD, etc, etc, etc....

 

Here's a tip from the business world to all you fanboys out there...

 

"You buys products from the best available vendors that suit your needs."

 

And if you believe that the park thinks that they can build a prototype ride or a "record breaker" without having some issues that go along with it, then you don't know much about park operations.

 

It's how the vendor reacts to these situations that will determine if a park goes with the same vendor again or not. Personally, I think Intamin did a GREAT job of dealing with all of their issues over the past few rides.

 

How many of us where there in 2003 to see Intamin staff ON SITE throughout almost the entire season through all those TTD issues?

 

--Robb

[ginzo]

They had problems with El Toro at Six Flags Great Adventure. That's a problem company, Intamin. The chain lift at SFNE for Superman broke, and they had to get a new one. You can talk about Drop Tower accident, and you can talk about the Superman accident.

 

I really want to see more companies get Premier rides, but that company had that accident at SFGAdv. I don't think the maintenance is up to standard though at that park. The problem is that they have a lot of low capacity rides too, but I think they are awesome.

 

You obviously never rode Outer Limits in its inaugural season. That was easily the worst thing I ever rode. Intamin never botched anything that badly.

[Tanks4me05]

I prefer variety of the experience over the actual coaster count. Both parks currently do fall short in a couple of key areas.

 

Also, coaster counts mean very little when parks include coasters for little kids.

 

Which brings me to one point: Why doesn't Kinzel like inversions? If he thinks they are gimmicks, technically anything is just a gimmick if it's a one trick pony or advertised to be awesome but done in a crappy manner. Inversions do have (and often live up to) an extremely forceful and an occasionally airtime filled potential.

 

I admit that I have never gone to SFMM, but CP is really fun. Granted, few of their rides are actually freaking amazing, (none are in my top five) the place has a really awesome atmosphere. It is definitely a great place to go.

[nagro5]

I think that comparing two completely different parks is stupid. If you like a park go to it, but if you don't, don't. Each park has its strong points, but they also have weak spots. Just look at the strong points and try to ignore the problems. Like I said before, you shouldn't try to compare two parks just on their coasters. Each park is unique in its own way.

[FeelTheFORCE]

 

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Besides, I think CP is done with Intamin for a while after the Maverick heartline roll fiasco.

 

How was it a fiasco?

 

New pieces were fabricated and the problem was solved, I think it took all of 2 weeks to fix the problem.

 

I don't care what CP gets, I just wish they would take the time to make more quality, not more quantity of rides.

 

The definition of a fiasco is a complete failure, which is what the heartline roll was, in my opinion, or they wouldn't have removed it. It failed to meet their standards and caused problems.

 

Regarding your second statement, I agree and think that Maverick is definitely a huge step towards building more quality-oriented rides, than quantity-oriented ones.

[FeelTheFORCE]

Ugh, I agree.

 

I'm SO sick of these fanboys trying to second guess the business decisions of a park.

 

Everyone said "Oh they are done with Intamin" after Millennium Force, after WT, after TTD, etc, etc, etc....

 

Here's a tip from the business world to all you fanboys out there...

 

"You buys products from the best available vendors that suit your needs."

 

And if you believe that the park thinks that they can build a prototype ride or a "record breaker" without having some issues that go along with it, then you don't know much about park operations.

 

It's how the vendor reacts to these situations that will determine if a park goes with the same vendor again or not. Personally, I think Intamin did a GREAT job of dealing with all of their issues over the past few rides.

 

How many of us where there in 2003 to see Intamin staff ON SITE throughout almost the entire season through all those TTD issues?

 

--Robb

 

I wasn't necessarily talking about them not getting another Intamin coaster because of mechanical reasons and/or their displease of Intamin (although that plays somewhat of a factor, in my opinion) as I was talking about the fact that there aren't too many types of Intamin coasters left to build.

[RIP Psyclone]

I'd say with a decent woodie and a steel hyper designed solely for airtime, SFMM's coaster lineup would not only beat CP, but be the best in the world. However, SFMM just isn't in the right location to be a "destination."