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California Great America (CGA) Discussion Thread


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Lastly, they are certainly not going to remove MR from Knott's to put it in here, it's not even the same kind of shuttle loop and because of that I believe the track length/footer are not exactly the same.

 

Placing Fanboy/Schwarzkopf Junkie hat on first...

 

There is only one real difference between Montezooma's Revenge and Tidal Wave: The propulsion unit. Monte is the 'new' generation flywheel design, the Tidal wave, as was the prototype at KD (King Kobra) were the original weight-drop models.

 

RCDB lists multiple lengths of track, but this is not necessarily correct: Schwarzkopf.coaster.net, which is the encyclopedia of Schwarzkopf coasters, lists lengths as nearly identical- at 722 feet. However, it can be safely assumed that tracks may have been modified in park- but only to the tower ends. The base launch structures remained the same for all models.

 

Changing one from flywheel to weight-drop would be irrelevant, but one could replace (in theory- but NOT going to happen here!) Tidal wave with Monte. But I think the odds on that are like having a dual eclipse tommorow night here in AZ.

 

THe difference comes if your raise up one model over the other- It's an optical illusion that Monte looks different- as it's got so much more stuff going on around it to make it look like a different length. Schwarzkopf only did one variant on his shuttle loops- and that was the rather infamous WienerLooping shuttle loop- which in itself is actually a variant of the Katapult series of flywheel/power axle design systems.

 

R.D. "Schwarzkopf forever" Sussmann

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The whole "Rip this and that ride out" idea would be a bad idea...why rip out something that's already there only to possibly have trouble putting in something new thanks to our dear sweet offices? And what would that do to GA's coaster collection? Even replacing Invertigo with another coaster isn't really an increase in ride collection, just swapping one thing out for another.

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Lastly, they are certainly not going to remove MR from Knott's to put it in here, it's not even the same kind of shuttle loop and because of that I believe the track length/footer are not exactly the same.

 

Placing Fanboy/Schwarzkopf Junkie hat on first...

 

There is only one real difference between Montezooma's Revenge and Tidal Wave: The propulsion unit. Monte is the 'new' generation flywheel design, the Tidal wave, as was the prototype at KD (King Kobra) were the original weight-drop models.

 

RCDB lists multiple lengths of track, but this is not necessarily correct: Schwarzkopf.coaster.net, which is the encyclopedia of Schwarzkopf coasters, lists lengths as nearly identical- at 722 feet. However, it can be safely assumed that tracks may have been modified in park- but only to the tower ends. The base launch structures remained the same for all models.

 

Changing one from flywheel to weight-drop would be irrelevant, but one could replace (in theory- but NOT going to happen here!) Tidal wave with Monte. But I think the odds on that are like having a dual eclipse tommorow night here in AZ.

 

THe difference comes if your raise up one model over the other- It's an optical illusion that Monte looks different- as it's got so much more stuff going on around it to make it look like a different length. Schwarzkopf only did one variant on his shuttle loops- and that was the rather infamous WienerLooping shuttle loop- which in itself is actually a variant of the Katapult series of flywheel/power axle design systems.

 

R.D. "Schwarzkopf forever" Sussmann

 

Thank you for clearing that up. I wasn't sure but I thought I read somewhere there was a difference in track length. I always liked the weight drop version more, don't know why really, maybe because of how the train was katapulted, very neat rides....both of them.

 

I never take off my fanboy Schwarzkopf hat....never!

 

Speaking of which, doesn't his son run the company now and if so, have they built any new coasters?

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I'd say the new CEO's visit to CGA is a positive gesture. I wonder if he is touring all the Cedar Fair parks, or if he specifically chose CGA to visit?

 

In other Cedar Fair news, they recently trademarked the name "Stinger" for a future attraction. NewsPlusNotes seems to think that it is for Invertigo, though. Full article here: http://newsplusnotes.blogspot.com/2011/06/stinger-speculation.html

 

 

I saw Cedar Fair's trademarks and the last two they put in are StratoSoar and Stinger. I was wondering what Stinger is but it probably is Invertigo's new name.

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Lastly, they are certainly not going to remove MR from Knott's to put it in here, it's not even the same kind of shuttle loop and because of that I believe the track length/footer are not exactly the same.

 

Placing Fanboy/Schwarzkopf Junkie hat on first...

 

There is only one real difference between Montezooma's Revenge and Tidal Wave: The propulsion unit. Monte is the 'new' generation flywheel design, the Tidal wave, as was the prototype at KD (King Kobra) were the original weight-drop models.

 

RCDB lists multiple lengths of track, but this is not necessarily correct: Schwarzkopf.coaster.net, which is the encyclopedia of Schwarzkopf coasters, lists lengths as nearly identical- at 722 feet. However, it can be safely assumed that tracks may have been modified in park- but only to the tower ends. The base launch structures remained the same for all models.

 

Changing one from flywheel to weight-drop would be irrelevant, but one could replace (in theory- but NOT going to happen here!) Tidal wave with Monte. But I think the odds on that are like having a dual eclipse tommorow night here in AZ.

 

THe difference comes if your raise up one model over the other- It's an optical illusion that Monte looks different- as it's got so much more stuff going on around it to make it look like a different length. Schwarzkopf only did one variant on his shuttle loops- and that was the rather infamous WienerLooping shuttle loop- which in itself is actually a variant of the Katapult series of flywheel/power axle design systems.

 

R.D. "Schwarzkopf forever" Sussmann

 

Thank you for clearing that up. I wasn't sure but I thought I read somewhere there was a difference in track length. I always liked the weight drop version more, don't know why really, maybe because of how the train was katapulted, very neat rides....both of them.

 

I never take off my fanboy Schwarzkopf hat....never!

 

Speaking of which, doesn't his son run the company now and if so, have they built any new coasters?

 

I thought when Anton Schwarzkopf died in the early 2000s that the company was sold to Intamin.

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Well new Schwarzkopf trains were unveiled recently, like about 8 years ago...

 

I always like looking at those ^

 

 

And according to schwarzkopf.coaster.net

 

Will we ever see a new looping-rollercoaster with the Schwarzkopf logo shining on...?

 

In fact Wieland Schwarzkopf, Antons son, used to be in the amusement business since 1984, too. His company begun with the delivery of spare parts for Schwarzkopf rides. Trading used rides, and roconditioning them, was an addition.

 

Thereafter they started distributing a variety of rides from different manufacturers. Examples given:

 

*

 

BHS Railbound rides

*

 

Barbieri - Autoscooter cars

*

 

Dotto - Road trains

*

 

SBF - Children's carousels

*

 

New Wave Rides - Waterslides

 

Wieland Schwarzkopf colaborated with the Gerstlauer company, which is the proud owner of the former Schwarzkopf factory. The first two rides were "The Waltz" and "Bavarian Express".

Later on, the "Dancing Pavilion" and some newer versions of the "Polyp" (especially the "Sombrero" edition) came aboard.

 

 

In conjunction with the firm BHS, Wieland Schwarzkopf brought a new type of "Raft Ride" onto the market with the result of some installations in the far east. To my knowledge, these Raft's have been built by the firm Hafema in Gödenroth, Germany.

 

In 1993, the new steel version of the "Wild Mouse" coaster was introduced. This type of coaster was very popular in it's origin wooden version that time and so should this one, too. Two units, which were a mirror image of each other, were purchased by the german showmen company Kinzler. Some more examples have been built by the BHS.

 

Lots of rumors were on the run. There should be something new like a looping-polyp. And yes, the "Absoluter" is it indeed. Untill today, only one has been built. This prototype was purchased by the german showmen company Kinzler. They started operation of their "Sound Factory" in 1997.

 

 

Today Wieland Schwarzkopf is offering compact coasters similar to the well known units that his father once built.

On the IAAPA exhibition 1999, in Atlanta, USA, a new coaster train was introdused. Based on the traditional trains, but with new seats (as used on the "Absoluter") and a new outfit. Customers in the first degree should be owners of Schwarzkopf coasters, that want to replace their old trains. On the IAAPA exhibition 2000, in Atlanta, USA, Wieland Schwarzkopf presented an safety-overhauled car of the "The Texas Tornado" (former "Thriller") with new seats and safety restrains. Customers in the first degree should be owners of older Schwarzkopf coasters, that want to put new seats / restarins into their existing trains.

ATTENTION: Please note also the new wheel-assemblies.

 

 

And this is according to Intamin

 

In the early years they (Intamin) also represented Schwarzkopf, the leader at the time in Roller Coasters and high quality Amusement Rides. They took a leading role in the relationship by commissioning and financing the development of new coasters including the first steel coaster with a real loop which went to Six Flags Magic Mountain ( and which took a starring role in the film ‘Roller Coaster’ ).

Following the demise of Schwarzkopf, they assured the continued support of their clients by acquiring the rights to Schwarzkopf rides.

At this time they had developed a strong brand in the market and were busy developing their own range of rides including such favorites as the Rapids Ride, Barnstormer, Swiss Bob, Stand Up Coaster and many more. A look at the list of amusement rides found around the world will quickly identify the company’s importance as the major innovator and supplier of rides to the amusement industry.

This drive to innovate and stay at the head of the industry continues unabated under the current management. A network of after-sales and sales support offices has been put in place.

 

So I guess that answers it.

 

Anton is also on Facebook, well sort of.

 

Anton Schwarzkopf on FB

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^Interesting. It seems that they are sort of just being dragged along with other companies these days as their have really been no new additions from Schwarzkopf.

 

Is anyone planning on going to the fireworks celebration tomorrow? Has anybody who has been there in the past know if it will be very crowded late in the day? Thanks if have anyone has information.

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RE: All the Schwarzkopf stuff-

 

It's true, Schwarzkopf's name lives on, in ways we don't quite imagine. His projects were part of BHS and subsequent companies, and Wieland did for a while offer his designs. However, we can thank Him every time we get onto an Intamin coaster these days, as it was his original Heartline design track structure (ShockWave, SFOT, Mindbender, SFOG) that gives us all the wonderful Intamin designs to this day- save a handful along the way, its still the system used for most of their projects.

 

As for the Shuttle Loops- it always seems different, at least launch wise, as the flywheel tends to 'accelerate' more smoothly- rather than the weight drop models, which simply went "BANG" and you're off. However, the mechanicals on them, as fun as they are, are a nightmare! Cables and such tend to wear out faster due to the physical stress on them.

 

If anything, there are a handful of people left who could recreate a Schwarzkopf coaster to His specifications. Weiland is one, but he's semi-retired himself nowadays, and of course Werner Stengel, who consulted with Anton on quite a few of His rides. I would LOVE to see recreations of some of His designs that remain unbuilt- or even new models of some of His greatest works.

 

Intamin could do a Schwarzkopf trackplan using their existing rail easily- as it's incredibly close to His own track designs!

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Is anyone planning on going to the fireworks celebration tomorrow? Has anybody who has been there in the past know if it will be very crowded late in the day? Thanks if have anyone has information.

 

It did get busier as the day went on, well at least from when I arrived for work around 3:30 and closer to the fireworks starting. The two rides I was at had fairly long lines throughout the day, and that capacity was up more each hour. Celebration Plaza was really crowded once the Fireworks started, so it would likely be best to avoid it. I'm sure other rides did as well, having longer lines, such as Vortex and Flight Deck, though I did not see how the lines were at those rides.

 

And Firefall again drew quite a bit of attention today, the guests see it being cycled over and over throughout the course of the day and think it's open or going to be opened, hopefully very soon they will actually be able to go on it. I'm sure if it were opened today, it would of had a rather long line too.

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I just can't believe Paramount took Tidal Wave out for no reason at all!!! That was a classic ride!!! They should have taken that stinky Grizzly instead. God I miss it so much. I'm in always in pain over the fact it's gone. It hurts so much & so depressing w/out it there. Having a model of it in the office is no good at all. The park should have the real thing still running. & Oh yeah it did make a noise when it launched I remember that. That is so odd the footers are still there but the whole ride is gone. From the stairs at Vortex I can't bear to look at that area anymore since you have many views of where Tidal Wave was. Isn't the station building gone? & Where you exit Spongebob wasn't that the Tidal Wave exit too? The most times in a row I went on Tidal Wave was 8. I know its at SFKK(that sucks so bad it should be at CGA!!!) but I'll never get there. What happened to the Astroworld one?(I know it's a flywheel model like Montezoomas so slightly different).

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^You're partially correct but SFKK's model is the one from SFGA and CGA. It's just that the one from CGA is a parts donor. This is interesting because both shuttle loops from the original Mariott's parks have been re-united here at this model.

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I'd say the new CEO's visit to CGA is a positive gesture. I wonder if he is touring all the Cedar Fair parks, or if he specifically chose CGA to visit?

 

In other Cedar Fair news, they recently trademarked the name "Stinger" for a future attraction. NewsPlusNotes seems to think that it is for Invertigo, though. Full article here: http://newsplusnotes.blogspot.com/2011/06/stinger-speculation.html

 

The new CEO is touring all of the parks,when I spoke to Pat Jones(KD's GM) at KD on my last visit swhe informed me of this.

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I just can't believe Paramount took Tidal Wave out for no reason at all!!!

 

Just because you don't know the reason, or don't agree with it, doesn't mean they didn't have one. Considering that's it's been gone for close to decade now, I'd say it's time to get over it and move on. It's gone and it's never coming back. End of story.

 

The more immediate concern is whether the park itself is going to survive, not any individual ride. Considering the good repuation that Mr. Ouimet had at Disney, we at least have some reason to hope for the best going forward. I've already resigned myself to the notion that this park is history. I would love to see that notion proven wrong and witness a return to better times for the park, but I'm not getting my hopes very high just yet.

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I just can't believe Paramount took Tidal Wave out for no reason at all!!! That was a classic ride!!! They should have taken that stinky Grizzly instead. God I miss it so much. I'm in always in pain over the fact it's gone. It hurts so much & so depressing w/out it there. Having a model of it in the office is no good at all. The park should have the real thing still running. & Oh yeah it did make a noise when it launched I remember that. That is so odd the footers are still there but the whole ride is gone. From the stairs at Vortex I can't bear to look at that area anymore since you have many views of where Tidal Wave was. Isn't the station building gone? & Where you exit Spongebob wasn't that the Tidal Wave exit too? The most times in a row I went on Tidal Wave was 8. I know its at SFKK(that sucks so bad it should be at CGA!!!) but I'll never get there. What happened to the Astroworld one?(I know it's a flywheel model like Montezoomas so slightly different).

 

Tidal Wave went bye bye due to the rising costs of operating it, plus the lower attendance of the ride. Yes, it's sad, but it's the simple fact of most parks (Save a handful that KNOW people go to a park for a variety of rides) for a thrill or two.

 

As for the park, I'm hoping for the best, as this is one of my home-parks (I'm a California-Corridor commuter, so I get the blessed benefits of all the 'state parks' withn my reach) and it's one I've felt has been neglected for far too long. If CF's new president is able to work out something with the SCCC, and is able to guide the park forward, renovate things, add more attractions (Not just coasters, but perhaps spruce up the place a bit, etc.) CGA could regain the lustre it once had. Will we see the return of Tidal Wave? No- live with it in your memories- as it does for most of us.

 

If I were at the helm of CGA: I'd be looking right now to stop the hemmoraging of rides to other parks: Two Vekomas gone in four years is NOT a good thing (Granted, I liked BOTH of them!) and consider renovating the park, section by section, and adding appropriate rides where necessary. A small B&M would fit the park nicely, as would any number of Gerstlauer rides (A good Eurofighter anyone?) or even an Intamin Megalite/Megalite custom/HyperLite. Put back some water rides (I want my FLUMES back, dammit.) that are for ALL people- not just some waterslides.

 

Just my .02 worth- but I think in all reality, the time to get this done would make the 101 expansion project look speedy...

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And I am sorry but I lay part of the blame on the Tidal Wave's low ridership on Days Of Thunder being built and the entrance being so hidden and easy to miss if you didn't know where to look for it, perhaps if it had more riders the park would have been able to justify the expense of keeping it running

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Something about taking it out due to maintenance costs does not seem right. It wasn't a "big" coaster but it also wasn't a maintenence nightmare, really didn't cost that much more to operates than the other coasters, it just seems like that was not the reason.

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I don't think it was long term maintenance costs as much as something that would have been very expensive to replace broke or was nearing the end of its life and they decided not to put that kind of money into an aging "unpopular" coaster.

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Something about taking it out due to maintenance costs does not seem right. It wasn't a "big" coaster but it also wasn't a maintenence nightmare, really didn't cost that much more to operates than the other coasters, it just seems like that was not the reason.

 

You'd be surprised by that-

 

Most of the early generation (Non-flywheel) Schwarzkopf Shuttle Loops chewed through cables like an Accelerator coaster from Intamn does; not to mention, each day the weight assembly required lubrication, the motors tended to wear out (Especially in higher traffic parks; KD replaced/removed/restored the motors on KK every YEAR!) and other smaller things.

 

In all reality, other than the motor, it was labor costs as well as the novelty wearing out; where we respect and value a Schwarzkopf Shuttle Loop, the general public does not.

 

Only three of the flywheel Shuttles still live on- One at Hopi Hari, and the other is KK's model- itself a hybrid of the two Great America models. The remainder are the flywheel drive system models. Sadly, the parts aren't avaliable anymore, which almost requires a park to build replacements by hand, or as the case of Greezed Lightning at KK, cannibalize another model for replacement parts. Hopi Hari rebuilt the old KK from the ground up, and replaced all of the parts by hand- including the original weight system with a more beneficial cement block in the 'tube'. THe third is still extant at Gold Reef City in South Africa, it too having been rebuilt by hand when it was relocated there from Carowinds.

 

These smaller park don't operate their shuttles nearly as frequently as the larger parks do- less than 12 times per hour, as opposed to 30-40 times per hour in a 'standard' park. This prevents parts from wearing out over time, making them feasable for these small parks.

 

I'd LOVE for Intamin to get off their duffs and build a LSM version of the Schwarzkopf Shuttle loop. It would, I think, be a big win for small parks wanting to break into the big ride market.

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Something about taking it out due to maintenance costs does not seem right. It wasn't a "big" coaster but it also wasn't a maintenence nightmare, really didn't cost that much more to operates than the other coasters, it just seems like that was not the reason.

 

You'd be surprised by that-

 

Most of the early generation (Non-flywheel) Schwarzkopf Shuttle Loops chewed through cables like an Accelerator coaster from Intamn does; not to mention, each day the weight assembly required lubrication, the motors tended to wear out (Especially in higher traffic parks; KD replaced/removed/restored the motors on KK every YEAR!) and other smaller things.

 

In all reality, other than the motor, it was labor costs as well as the novelty wearing out; where we respect and value a Schwarzkopf Shuttle Loop, the general public does not.

 

Only three of the flywheel Shuttles still live on- One at Hopi Hari, and the other is KK's model- itself a hybrid of the two Great America models. The remainder are the flywheel drive system models. Sadly, the parts aren't avaliable anymore, which almost requires a park to build replacements by hand, or as the case of Greezed Lightning at KK, cannibalize another model for replacement parts. Hopi Hari rebuilt the old KK from the ground up, and replaced all of the parts by hand- including the original weight system with a more beneficial cement block in the 'tube'. THe third is still extant at Gold Reef City in South Africa, it too having been rebuilt by hand when it was relocated there from Carowinds.

 

These smaller park don't operate their shuttles nearly as frequently as the larger parks do- less than 12 times per hour, as opposed to 30-40 times per hour in a 'standard' park. This prevents parts from wearing out over time, making them feasable for these small parks.

 

I'd LOVE for Intamin to get off their duffs and build a LSM version of the Schwarzkopf Shuttle loop. It would, I think, be a big win for small parks wanting to break into the big ride market.

 

Isn't Montezooma's Revenge a flywheel Schwarzkopf Shuttle Loop Coaster?

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Wait a minute I'm confused....there are two different flywheel models?

 

I thought there was only the weight drop model and then the flywheel model. All of them have a clutch so that is where this is confusing. The weight drop has one type of clutch, the flywheel has another type of clutch. Are you saying there are two different clutch types for the flywheel? In order for any of these to work they have to have some types of clutch on them, so basically they all have one. In fact the Schwarzkopf site lists both weight drop and flywheel types as having clutches, which means since Montezooma's Revenge is the flywheel type it also has a clutch, (actually it would have one either way). So you see why this is a little confusing as if it did not have a clutch it could not possibly work.

 

 

Intamin could build a taller, faster shuttle loop with LIMs, easily. Or better yet, if the forces were not too intense, an even bigger one with the hydraulic launch, 200ft loop maybe towers reaching 300ft.

 

The real interesting thing is way before it was developed for practical use, Anton mentioned using a "linear motor" as a launching means, that's how far ahead of his time he was.

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