RAWKIN_coaster38 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Dang I like "X-Squared" better... it sounds more technical and special. Didn't my math teacher say parabolas were like roller coasters? The only time he got my attention that whole year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tmcdllr Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 ^^I agree they should pivot and I was surprised to see that but maybe the wheels are so close together that it wont matter and dont they give a little anyway? Its also possible the old design may have been able to move too much which could have contributed to some of the jerkyness in the seat rotation and this new, tighter design could solve that problem. I am not a coaster designer but there has to be a good reason for the change. We will find out when it is running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PURE Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 In the pics showing the differences in the wheel trolleys, I can't help but wonder how the new wheels will articulate with the curvature in the tracks. On the original X trains, you can see that the guide wheels have pivots on all 4 wheels. The new trains use a rigid frame which looks like it keeps all 4 wheels in the same positions relative to each other. I couldn't tell from looking of the whole assembly will then pivot to keep all 4 wheels engaged with the track or not... Sorry if I'm overthinking it, but I think we all know that historically, Arrow designs aren't know for their abilities to handle curves... Ok, looking back at the pic, I can see the pivot point well above the trolley. I wonder if this will make the rack much more sensitive to the track position now... The pivot above the assembly is for the frame of the car and has nothing to do with the track. Allows the trains to bend using the wheel assemblies becuase if there was no pivot the frame would break. I am designing my own wheel assembly and the assembly thats used for the rack and pinion is awful. Everyone knows that Arrows are rough and here is why. The old assembly had pivots and bumpers in between which is the way it should be. The wheels have to move to allow for the bend in the track because if its a rigid assembly with no tolerance the assembly will explode. Allowing the wheels to move means you can have a tighter tolerance. And instead of the wheels hitting metal they put this hard rubber in which I dont know what its called. So instead of a clank you get a thud. B&M and Itamin have this, usually red or orange and in the old x trains you can see its black. The assembly still moves and you get that jerk in your seat but its softened slightly. The new assembly is horrible. The wheels are so far apart and they took off the gas shocks so now there is a big gap! I know its going to make the spin start off rough. If they wanted a rigid assembly for maintenance and longevity purposes they should have inverted the assembly so the frame is on the outside and the small wheels super close together so that the gap can be smaller. Every wheel assembly on any train has a gap if its riding a rail thats bent. I have been working on my assembly for about a year now and have eliminated the vertical gap! I have the idea how to elimate the horizontal gap but not sure if its possible to engineer. Give me time because I am soooo busy. Put the pivots and gas struts back on!!!! I'm assuming you're talking about the X rails (The pink ones that rotate the cars). I know what you mean about that gap, but I think, much like Arrow did the first time, the movement needed for those wheels was over-estimated. If you think of the enormous size of the track and how non-specifically the X rails move on them, there really is no need for such a tight scale mechanism. The arch of X's drops are hundreds of feet wide, while the distance between the two sets of X wheels (circled in green) are near a foot wide. The picture below shows what I mean. I think the reason behind taking away the pivot was because it allowed too much play let alone required tons of maintenence on a daily basis (7 cars x 2 Sides x 2 trains= 28 individual adjusters, not even including each adjusters individual parts. That's checking them, not adjusting them). The trains going 76 mph, and the track's bends aren't tight enough to require that amount of play for the shocks and hinges to be necessary. If you look at the old X rail mechanisms(ABOVE), the pivots or hinges(circled in light blue) create a non stiff movement for all 4 wheels; meaning there's going to be 4 wheels moving in different directions at any given time. This means wheel contact is not guaranteed at all times. The adjusters (circled in light green) loosen throughout a day or a week, and create a gap between the wheels and their contact with the track as well. When the train is riding the circuit, there's so much movement going on whether it being the wheel assembly on the track or the seat rotations that it helps if the X rail wheels are gapping between the track as minimally and non-independently as possible. As you see, having that gap (circled in red) creates too much specificity, and wide accuracy. Its not needed. While one sides pulling, the other may be pushing, etc. I think the new parts will work well because they keep the most possible contact with the rails. If you look closely at the X2 trains (ABOVE), they've created a sort of cross pivot point (shown in black). This means when the X rail moves the wheel assembly upward (shown in X pink) the wheel assembly is going to force the wheel below it and the wheel behind it against the track, creating 2 contact points at all times (circle in light blue). More contact with track means there's no movement between the wheels and the track at any time, which is what we want. The solid arm design (shown in yellow) contributes a great deal to how little gap there will be between the wheels riding either above or below the X rail. Eliminating the gap (in red) creates a swivel between the wheels across from each other (shown in white on the new X wheel assemblies) , meaning only 2 types of wheel movement can go on at any given time. In fact, it even makes the wheel assembly stronger, because now they are all more or less supporting each other, instead of having 4 different wheels supporting themselves. As a whole, this makes wheel contact tighter because of the tremendous scale of the rail to the wheel. Less specific adjusting wheel mechanisms mean the ride doesn't have to correct itself as much while riding which means a smoother ride. I think if the wheels could be spread further apart, the hinge assembly would be necessary (like was used on the old trains), but because they need several sets of wheels close together for 7 cars, they must opt for the design where the wheels are going to be close. Doing this the rotations of the trains will hopefully be less shaky, and the new strength of the train body's will help with that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purplepills Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 ^Really nice explanation. I do love the engineering side of coasters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaynen Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Looks to me the pivot point is well above the assembly like it is on every other assembly (red square box). The green lines represent the rigid frame and the blue line is the radius the assembly travels. When the rail goes up to push the assembly up it will hit both top wheels. Then when the rail moves down it will move down touching nothing for a bit then hit both bottom wheels. I could be wrong but for the pivot you got in black the pivot for the assembly would have to be there as well and unless its behind it and we cant see it then i am pretty sure its acting like this. I know what you mean about the raidus' of the rails being so large it doesnt matter. But there is still play which will mean a thud to get the rotation started. The shocks didnt bear any load, they just softened the blow to the wheels so that they didnt wear out as quick and made it slightly softer spin start. Thanks for the post, I enjoy talking about wheel assemblies and there is not alot of people that can elabarate on it. Let me know what you think of the pivot location, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIP Psyclone Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Also, it seems the transfer/maintenance shed used to be uncovered. I had forgotten that. Also, that picture shows what an awesome ride X is, and X2 will be, in case anyone had forgotten! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PURE Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 ^^^^I know what you mean, and I agree with you. It doesn't make any sense that they'd use the new system over the old system, the most obvious reason being that the X wheel assemblies are going to "pinch" the rails. It’s similar to why old Arrows (like Viper) can be so rough. They have solid wheel assemblies that require a gap between the rails, so the assemblies don't pinch the track. That gap is what causes the constant correction and pounding, which results in roughness to the car and riders. As far as I know there is supposed to be NO gap between the X rails and wheels, which really leads me to believe that having the hinged X rail wheel assembly really isn’t necessary to avoid “pinching” the rail. The only thing I can think of for the change, is because of the amount of movement those hinged wheels created to the rotation of the trains--and because they weren't going to pinch anyway. I know I've been doing posting photo drawings, but I think that's the best way to explain. The light blue and light green vertical lines represent the straight X gear teeth on the pink and green wheel assemblies, respectively. All the dots are the same assembly, I just varied the colors so you could tell the difference while they were moving, and could compare them while still. The red horizontal line (1) represents the regular track, so you can see how much movement the hinged wheel assembly creates in relation to it. The orange horizontal line represents the X rail (2), again, to show the movement of the X rail wheel assembly in relation to the X rail. Having the hinged wheels creates wheel assembly movement (The green and pink dots on the “GAP” drawing). Having a curve track, combining the speed of the ride and the movement of the X rail forces the wheels assemblies themselves to move up and down in relation to the X rail (the orange horizontal line). This creates another source of movement to the X gear; 1 being the movement of the wheel assembly (which is NOT intended), and 2 being the movement of the X rail itself (which is intended). Having a solid piece creates only 1 place of movement, and that is the intended up and down movement of the X rail. In the “NO GAP” drawing you can see that in relation to the X rail, the wheel assembly barely moves. This takes away the wheel assembly movement allowing the train to feel the X rail more reliably than before. And when you think about it, it makes sense. On the roughest part of the ride (the last raven turn) the trains movement and momentum, the X rail movement to rotate the seats, and the hinged wheels movement created this jarring back and forth seat movement during rotation, which made it one of the most painful and unbearable parts of the ride. Same with right after the turnaround, there’s a little pop of air before you enter the beginning portion of the half/half that really jarred the train. Removing the hinged wheels takes away that problem. Yes you will feel the rebound from the X rail movement (which you pretty much felt on the ride anyway), but the sharp skull shaking movement will be minimized. The only better solution is to rid of the X rail and start from scratch. Which may happen in the future to 4-d’s, but as far as X is concerned, its about as good as its going to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tmcdllr Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Fantastic explanations! Thank you very much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaynen Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 There should be a live wire along the track that the train connects to for power and sensors for the position of the seats in relation to where the car is on the track. Electric motors would add some weight, but weight would be lost from two wheel assemblies. I think it can be done just not sure of the saftey issues it causes. Then there could be different programs which would be kick ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seasonpass_Doug Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Hey Everyone! I'm new to the boards, I usually just read these conversations w/out replying, but this discussion has grabbed my attention. First off, the trains look great - the reduced weight and aerodynamics should do wonders for the ride. As for the 2nd guide rail; I wouldn't worry about the engineering, I think S&S has been in the business long enough to know what works and doesn't work. SFMM wouldn't invest $10 million on a guess (excluding Deja Vu). : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purplepills Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 There should be a live wire along the track that the train connects to for power and sensors for the position of the seats in relation to where the car is on the track. Electric motors would add some weight, but weight would be lost from two wheel assemblies. I think it can be done just not sure of the saftey issues it causes. Then there could be different programs which would be kick a$$. I think safety and reliability are the key issues as to why the system you mention isn't in place, or at least has a large downside. Its a great idea to be able to run different programs, but I guess if there was any kind of problem mid-ride you could end up in a very painful position should you be stuck facing in the wrong direction at the wrong time. X was painful enough when you were facing the right way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PURE Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 As for the 2nd guide rail; I wouldn't worry about the engineering, I think S&S has been in the business long enough to know what works and doesn't work. SFMM wouldn't invest $10 million on a guess (excluding Deja Vu). : ) Which was a near $20 million dollar investment (Deja Vu). And X, which was over a $20 million dollar investment (somewhere near the $30's, especially with this $10 mill dollar revamp). And Superman, which was a $20 million dollar investment... My point being, Six Flags WOULD invest millions on what you call a "guess". They've done it before, and they're doing it again. Who really knows how much better X2 is going to ride going to be before it cycles? Nobody. The new trains are in anticipation of a better ride, but nothings guaranteed. I'm not saying they don't know what they're doing. I just don't think its safe to assume with new technology that they're 100% going to work with no problems or dead ends right from the start. I don't think anyone fathomed the problems they would have with the above mentioned rides and look how those ended up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seasonpass_Doug Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Touche'! I guess you can it a $10 million Improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfmmrules! Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Woo! I'll be at SFMM in August. Already looking forward to X2. I never got to ride the original X so I'm very excited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbalvey Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 Ok, time to unstick this. We have posted updated photos of X2 plus and interview with Six Flags CEO here: http://www.themeparkreview.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41974 --Robb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeemerBoy Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Having never ridden either coaster, I obviously have no frame of reference, but there's one intriuging question I've got for those who have.....REPEAT...THOSE WHO HAVE, preferably. Just by the looks, Baco seems to be supported by a pretty rigid support beam, yet the outside seat is said to be rather rough. In comparison, the new X2 trains' "Pickle Spoons" claim to be more supportive by means of a "stronger, more supportive one-piece arm thingy." It should be interesting to see if the new "Pickle Spoons" really do reduce the vibrations. If so, maybe an improved Intamin wingwalker design would benefit from a similiar enhancement? My guesstimate is that the better center of gravity supports on X2 are the way to go. Thoughts? mmmm, Pickle Spoon. X2 Baco's support beam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astroworldfan1 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 What's going to happen to the X's old trains? Will they be used for parts or the Sky Tower museum? Or will they be used on other 4-D coasters, or will they get scrapped? -Tatum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PURE Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 ^They'll be put in some sort of graveyard to rot until they're beyond use. The park pretty much keeps everything that doesn't get destroyed in other ways. For example: Psyclone trains, Freefall Carts, Batmobile, old Roaring Rapids boats. They keep them because they can take them apart and use them for parts some time in the future; be it something as simple as nuts or bolts. But really, think about it. If you were the park manager, what are you supposed to do with completely useless old X trains? Nothing. So that's what they do, they sit around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfmmrules! Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 What the heck are those barrels in the middle of the train??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhandluke Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 ^Part of the theming on Furius Baco. It's set in a winery/vineyard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrs28330 Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Check out the photos of the first drop of the new trains here: http://www.themeparkreview.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26782&start=2590 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koaster krazy Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 the new X2 trains look so cool. I cant wait to ride it in the summer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingdakafan33 Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 I hope there is just a smoother ride ont he new trains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCFreak Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Having never ridden either coaster, I obviously have no frame of reference, but there's one intriuging question I've got for those who have.....REPEAT...THOSE WHO HAVE, preferably. Just by the looks, Baco seems to be supported by a pretty rigid support beam, yet the outside seat is said to be rather rough. In comparison, the new X2 trains' "Pickle Spoons" claim to be more supportive by means of a "stronger, more supportive one-piece arm thingy." It should be interesting to see if the new "Pickle Spoons" really do reduce the vibrations. If so, maybe an improved Intamin wingwalker design would benefit from a similiar enhancement? My guesstimate is that the better center of gravity supports on X2 are the way to go. Thoughts? Having been on both X and Baco, I can say that I had much better rides on X then I did on Baco. It really was the train on Baco too as the night rides were much more enjoyable then the day rides and I contribute it to not being able to see anything on baco at night. Intamin just needs to never make those types of trains again lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingdakafan33 Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 The pickle spoons are lighter because they have holes cut in them to light'n them up. they cant have holes in the pickle forks. because pickle forks are like poles... so in the frame on the trains. the holes lighting things up and they took away cable and fiberglass off the trains to lighting things up alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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