The official NFL Discussion Thread

[bigstevet07]

All you have to do is look at 2006 to see that Belichick realized Brady needed something to work with. He had JAGS on that offense (35 yo Troy Brown, Reche "bugeyes" caldwell, Watson, Gabriel, Graham, Gafney, etc). Those are NOBODYS. Belichick did what most any other coach would do, get Brady some playmakers to throw to. He does and look what happens.

 

You've basically proven our point about the system by mentioning these guys. They were all considered really good players at their position with the Pats, but have done absolutely nothing without that system. Why do you think McDaniels went out and signed Gafney? Because he is perfect for the system.

 

If I could pick ANY quarterback of ALL TIME to lead my team during an attempted 4th quarter comeback drive, I would choose Tom Brady, hands down.

 

Brady is unflappable in those situations, but I would suggest you go back and watch video on Elway or Montana. I would watch The Drive, The Drive 2, and one that gets forgotten is Elways last minute drive against Houston in I believe was the 1990 playoffs. It may have been 1991. You could even watch the classic Monday Night Football contest between Elway and Montana. Elway leads a last minute drive only to score too soon and Montana brings the Chiefs back. I believe that was the 1992 or 1993 season. Having to go 45 yards or so in the last two minutes for a FG is not quite as impressive as going the length of the field needing a TD to win the game.

[BeemerBoy]

^ Steve, we're not gonna win this one. I knew everything when I was 21 too. Weird, huh?

 

 

 

 

Scott "Adam Vinatieri made Tom Brady....Tom Brady" B.

[mcjaco]

Those guys (Marino and Montana) played during an UNCAPPED era. The 49ers had a vastly superior team because they paid all the stars.

 

When the 49ers traded Montana to Kansas City he was signed for two years, and 12 million dollars. I'd hardly call that being paid.

 

Second, I've editted your post. Watch your language.

[FeelTheFORCE]

All you have to do is look at 2006 to see that Belichick realized Brady needed something to work with. He had JAGS on that offense (35 yo Troy Brown, Reche "bugeyes" caldwell, Watson, Gabriel, Graham, Gafney, etc). Those are NOBODYS. Belichick did what most any other coach would do, get Brady some playmakers to throw to. He does and look what happens.

 

You've basically proven our point about the system by mentioning these guys. They were all considered really good players at their position with the Pats, but have done absolutely nothing without that system. Why do you think McDaniels went out and signed Gafney? Because he is perfect for the system.

 

Yeah, Gaffney is doing great and doesn't need a good QB to be successful, that's why he has 3 receptions for 25 yds (long of 21), and Denver could only put up 12 points against the BUNGALS. Take away that fluke last play to Stokely and it's only 6.

 

If I could pick ANY quarterback of ALL TIME to lead my team during an attempted 4th quarter comeback drive, I would choose Tom Brady, hands down.

 

Brady is unflappable in those situations, but I would suggest you go back and watch video on Elway or Montana. I would watch The Drive, The Drive 2, and one that gets forgotten is Elways last minute drive against Houston in I believe was the 1990 playoffs. It may have been 1991. You could even watch the classic Monday Night Football contest between Elway and Montana. Elway leads a last minute drive only to score too soon and Montana brings the Chiefs back. I believe that was the 1992 or 1993 season. Having to go 45 yards or so in the last two minutes for a FG is not quite as impressive as going the length of the field needing a TD to win the game.

 

I have, many many times, and my statement still stands.

 

 

 

Lastly, before all the "you're only 20 years old, and therefore know nothing" posts resurface, I'd like to point out that I have Steelers season tickets, have been to every home game since Heinz Field opened in 2001 (parents have had theirs since the late 60s), which means I've seen Brady play IN PERSON a good 3 or 4 times, have been to away games at Detroit, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis, and was at Super Bowl XL...and that's just NFL. I'm not trying to brag, but I felt as if that needed to be said for my opinion to actually mean something, based on previous comments.

[Homeboy23]

Their comments about you being 20 was not intended that you don't know anything about todays game. It was that you can't compare him to the QB's that have played in the 70's, 80's and 90's. You can't compare solely by stats.

 

I have been watching football and basketball ever since I understood the games in the early 90's but when I have time I try catching some older games on ESPN classic and anywhere I can find them.

[sugart]

 

You've basically proven our point about the system by mentioning these guys. They were all considered really good players at their position with the Pats, but have done absolutely nothing without that system. Why do you think McDaniels went out and signed Gafney? Because he is perfect for the system.

 

 

Or is Brady that good and made them better? When its all said and done Brady and Manning will be right up there with the greats.

 

But also in the end its really just opinion. I for one dont think Marino is top 5.

[BeemerBoy]

Lastly, before all the "you're only 20 years old, and therefore know nothing" posts resurface, I'd like to point out that I have Steelers season tickets, have been to every home game since Heinz Field opened in 2001 (parents have had theirs since the late 60s), which means I've seen Brady play IN PERSON a good 3 or 4 times, have been to away games at Detroit, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis, and was at Super Bowl XL...and that's just NFL. I'm not trying to brag, but I felt as if that needed to be said for my opinion to actually mean something, based on previous comments.

 

That's terrific. From the Don Strock/ David Woodley days right up until the mid to late 90's, I had season tickets for the Dolphins. That means I watched about 90% of Dan Marino's career. I've seen Elway, Montana, Fouts, Ken Anderson, Jim Kelley, etc. etc. play in person. And for the Pats fans, I was even there to watch Tony Eason beat us in '85 before Chicago embarrassed you. Does that make me an expert? No. But at least I'm able to look at things objectively. For instance, I wouldn't even select Marino unless he had a decent running game, and a competent offensive coordinator.

 

What I don't understand is why Pats fans feel the need to defend Brady like they're the one's slurping him every night, and not Gisele. Hell, I'd be more than happy to admit my quarterback benefited from the best system in pro football, in an era where the word "dynasty" probably shouldn't surface.

 

Who gives a flying Gillette razor if he's not considered one of the greatest? YOU HAVE THREE FRICKIN' RINGS!!! Go ahead and ask Marino, Fouts, Ken Anderson, etc., if they'd trade in their stats for a ring? If the rest of the league is jealous of your current plug and play system which produces results, then why deny it, and whine about those who recognize it as such??????????? It is what it is....and it happens to be pretty damn good.

 

And once again....

 

As for the system QB, look at last season. Matt Cassel wasn't good as Brady, but was pretty good with the system they have at NE.

 

Exactly.

 

Year Att. Comp. Yds. TD Int.

2008 516 327 3,693 21 11

 

Numbers like these don't happen for a backup QB with little to no experience without a solid SYSTEM in place.

 

 

Tunnelvisionius Fanboyism - it's worse than the swine flu.

[bigstevet07]

Lastly, before all the "you're only 20 years old, and therefore know nothing" posts resurface, I'd like to point out that I have Steelers season tickets, have been to every home game since Heinz Field opened in 2001 (parents have had theirs since the late 60s), which means I've seen Brady play IN PERSON a good 3 or 4 times, have been to away games at Detroit, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis, and was at Super Bowl XL...and that's just NFL. I'm not trying to brag, but I felt as if that needed to be said for my opinion to actually mean something, based on previous comments.

 

So. since you've been there in person makes you more knowledgable on the subject? I've seen a few NFL games live in my time, and I haven't missed a Broncos regular season game whether live or on TV for many, many years. (thank you Direct TV!) I guess watching the game on TV instead of live doesn't allow me enough perspective on the subject? I have season tickets to a USHL hockey franchise here in Omaha, but I wouldn't say that I have more knowledge on the game than anyone else.

 

EDIT: Scott beat me to it.

 

Or is Brady that good and made them better? When its all said and done Brady and Manning will be right up there with the greats.

 

That is basically what I've been trying to say all along, that he is not there yet so considering him the GOAT is crazy.

[Satchboogie3]

Alright Guys, lets all take a step back and I'll address these points.

 

You've basically proven our point about the system by mentioning these guys. They were all considered really good players at their position with the Pats, but have done absolutely nothing without that system. Why do you think McDaniels went out and signed Gafney? Because he is perfect for the system.

 

How does this make sense? I proved the point that he had receivers made of poo. Who ever considered those guys "great" when they were with the Pats? You obviously have never followed the team or its fans. Any knowledgeable Pats fan was pissed at the fact Brady never had any good receivers. We HATED Caldwell when he was with the team. We realized Gafney was average at best, we realized Chad Jackson was a bust, we knew Troy Brown was too old, we knew Ben Watson had butterfingers. Just because we supported the team does not mean we thought those players were any good.

 

Belichick didn't go sign Gafney because he was "perfect for the system". He signed him because the team DESPERATELY needed receivers and he didn't want to break the bank. Gafney didn't have some amazing career in NE, he actually had a reduced roll (and less impressive stats) than what he did in TB. Again, you are miss using the word "system". The "system" isn't what made these receivers usable, it was Brady.

 

If I could pick ANY quarterback of ALL TIME to lead my team during an attempted 4th quarter comeback drive, I would choose Tom Brady, hands down.

 

Brady is unflappable in those situations, but I would suggest you go back and watch video on Elway or Montana. I would watch The Drive, The Drive 2, and one that gets forgotten is Elways last minute drive against Houston in I believe was the 1990 playoffs. It may have been 1991. You could even watch the classic Monday Night Football contest between Elway and Montana. Elway leads a last minute drive only to score too soon and Montana brings the Chiefs back. I believe that was the 1992 or 1993 season. Having to go 45 yards or so in the last two minutes for a FG is not quite as impressive as going the length of the field needing a TD to win the game.

 

I'm NOT saying that Montana and Elway weren't good. They WERE amazing. Marino, Montana, Elway, etc were all GREAT QBs. If I had to pick a QB to build my franchise, you bet Montana would be right up there at the top of the list. I'm simply arguing that Brady belongs on that list. 114 games is a pretty good sample size.

[mcjaco]

^ CHILL OUT!

 

Last warning, there's no need to use any form of the SH*& word here.

[FeelTheFORCE]

That's terrific. From the Don Strock/ David Woodley days right up until the mid to late 90's, I had season tickets for the Dolphins. That means I watched about 90% of Dan Marino's career. I've seen Elway, Montana, Fouts, Ken Anderson, Jim Kelley, etc. etc. play in person. And for the Pats fans, I was even there to watch Tony Eason beat us in '85 before Chicago embarrassed you. Does that make me an expert? No. But at least I'm able to look at things objectively. For instance, I wouldn't even select Marino unless he had a decent running game, and a competent offensive coordinator.

 

Trust me, I know. I read your stadium PTRs all the time (go Canes!), and thoroughly enjoy doing so. By saying what I said, however, I can also give my opinion without anyone automatically slapping the "he's 20 and doesn't know anything, or at least as much as we do about football" label on me.

 

So. since you've been there in person makes you more knowledgable on the subject? I've seen a few NFL games live in my time, and I haven't missed a Broncos regular season game whether live or on TV for many, many years. (thank you Direct TV!) I guess watching the game on TV instead of live doesn't allow me enough perspective on the subject? I have season tickets to a USHL hockey franchise here in Omaha, but I wouldn't say that I have more knowledge on the game than anyone else.

 

No, not at all. Please read my post again, especially the statement, "I felt as if that needed to be said for my opinion to actually mean something, based on previous comments." Nowhere at all did I say that I know more than anyone else. Like I said, it was simply to make my opinion valid, instead of automatically discarded because of some number below my username on the left. Besides, someone previously used the "you weren't there to watch greats like Montana, Marino, etc. in person, so you don't know what you're talking about" comeback against Boogie, so apparently being there DOES make a difference. I'm just making my posts based on what was previously said.

 

Anyway, I really don't even care for Tom Brady and dislike him a bit, so I'm done defending/discussing him, lol.

[Satchboogie3]

^ CHILL OUT!

 

Last warning, there's no need to use any form of the SH*& word here.

 

What? I can't use a word just because it is labeled "dirty"? Really? How is it dirty or offensive when I'm using the word to describe how they play? They are shitty receivers = they are terrible, crappy, awful, bad, etc etc. How is that offensive?

[BeemerBoy]

^ Dude, how is "watch your language" that difficult to understand?

 

^^ Force, no worries. Check your pm's.

 

To say Tom Brady (and for all intents and purposes, Matt Cassel) didn't become what they are today because of a "tuck" rule, Bill Belichick, Charlie Weis, Romeo Crennel, and Adam Vinatieri, would be foolish.

 

The coaching staff implemented a tremendous system, players bought into it and became better as a whole by using it, a few things bounced their way, a placekicker came up clutch (if Norwood hit his, maybe Jim Kelley ends up in this discussion), and the rest is history.

 

Brady is REALLY good. But he was undoubtedly aided by everything around him. How many times have you seen GREAT college quarterbacks flounder in the NFL because they weren't lucky enough to be drafted into a great system? Just admit, and be proud that Tom wasn't one of them (even considering he wasn't a "great college quarterback").

[Satchboogie3]

^ Dude, how is "watch your language" that difficult to understand?

 

^^ Force, no worries. Check your pm's.

 

To say Tom Brady (and for all intents and purposes, Matt Cassel) didn't become what they are today because of a "tuck" rule, Bill Belichick, Charlie Weis, Romeo Crennel, and Adam Vinatieri, would be foolish.

 

The coaching staff implemented a tremendous system, players bought into it and became better as a whole by using it, a few things bounced their way, a placekicker came up clutch (if Norwood hit his, maybe Jim Kelley ends up in this discussion), and the rest is history.

 

Brady is REALLY good. But he was undoubtedly aided by everything around him. How many times have you seen GREAT college quarterbacks flounder in the NFL because they weren't lucky enough to be drafted into a great system? Just admit, and be proud that Tom wasn't one of them.

 

And how is that NOT the case with EVERY other QB or player? It takes a whole team effort and a bit of luck to win a SB and it is that way for everyone. Also, don't just play the "Oh, its the coaching staff". Are you seriously about to suggest that Bill Walsh isn't an all-time great Coach? How about Don Shula?

 

This "System" thing is completely misunderstood. EVERY coach tries to put their players in the best scenario to perform well and win. The real "System" that Belichick uses is fairly simple: Get maximum value. It simply means that you don't over pay for players, you don't give huge contracts to aging vets, you focus on drafting great tallent in the middle to late rounds and you balance the roster correctly. It ISNT some mystical scheming.

 

The Patriots offense isn't different from anything any other teams do. It is simply effective. Why? Brady. It is SOO tough to defend agains the Pats because they do have many weapons now (Moss, Welker, etc) but because Brady is so good at reading the defense. If you overpursue and rush too much, he'll kill you with slants and screens. If you sit back and coverage, he'll pick you appart with underneath routes and hand the ball off. If you start to stack the box, he'll find Moss single covered for a huge gain. He takes what the defense gives him and it is REALLY hard to take away the entire field.

 

Also, don't just stereo type that young people haven't seen Montana, Elway, Untis, Marino, etc play. I'm going to let you in on a little secret, there is actually GAME FOOTAGE of many many classic games! I enjoy watching games from years past and watching the alltime greats, so yes, I have actually WATCHED them play, and yes, they ARE amazing. I never took anything away from those guys.

 

To address the idea that Cassel is just a product of this mythical "system". Cassel isn't as bad a QB as most of us thought before 2008. He knew the playbook and had 4 years of learning from Brady and Belichick. He did benefit from having a great core of receivers, no doubt. The thing I look the most at, though, is his progression. The first half of the season was basically just game management. He focused on short, high-percentage passes. He handed the ball off. As he gained experience and confidence his game expanded. Here is a break down of his season:

Sept: 66.7% Cmp, 2 TD, 1 INT, 6.22 Y/A, 87 QB Rating

Oct: 65.4% Cmp, 5 TD, 5 INT, 7.2 Y/A, 83.3 QB Rating

Nov: 63.3% Cmp, 6TD, 4 INT, 7.15 Y/A, 86.3 QB Rating

Dec: 59.3% Cmp, 8 TD, 1 INT, 7.7 Y/A, 102.7 QB Rating

 

As he gained confidence/experience he started to open up the field, thus his comp % dropped and his Y/A increased. His first 3 months he was just over a 1:1 TD - INT ration, again, he wasn't trying to pick up the team. By the last quarter of the season he had built up his experience to the point where he could start to attempt to win games with his arm.

 

Now, again, having Moss and Welker was a HUGE advantage. We saw how big of an impact having great recievers can have when Brady had the greatest QB season ever in 07. BUT this wasn't the case of Cassel just sitting back and letting some "system" do the work for him.

[BeemerBoy]

You're right. We're all wrong. What are we thinking?

[FeelTheFORCE]

On a different note (sort of, considering it's still the Pats, lol), how about Kerry Rhodes talking smack on the Pats? This should be interesting, and definitely stir things up. Man I love division rivalries!

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4480639

[Satchboogie3]

You're right. We're all wrong. What are we thinking?

 

Prove me wrong. Most Superbowl winners have great franchise QBs. Just about every single team to win a Superbowl had to have a ton of breaks go their way along the way(including QBs). Most great Quarterbacks had great coaching staff and receivers around them. I have already provided plenty of evidence to support that.

 

2nd. No one has actually explained what this "system" is that makes Brady so good. I've already explained that the offense isn't very different from any other team with a good QB. The "system" refers to valuing players.

 

Seriously, If you are going to call me wrong, please give supported arguments WHY.

 

Please, tell me what this "system" is. Please tell me why Brady's 07 season was a fluke and shouldn't count. Is saying that having 2 great receivers the difference between 28 TDs a season and 50 really that outragous? Sounds pretty reasonable to me. The way some people make Belichick out it would seem that everyone else is in the Candian League and Belichick has never been out coached...

[mcjaco]

And we're locked. Thanks for playing guys.

 

I'll unlock this in day or two when you can all calm down.

 

And here's a refresher on the first two posting rules:

 

1. Most of the content on this board is suitable for everyone at any age. HOWEVER, there may be some content that would be considered rated "PG-13." Theme Park Review is NOT recommended for ages under 13 years of age. Therefore, if you are under 13 years of age, you are confirming by accepting these rules that you have parental consent to view this board.

 

2. Have fun! That's the most important rule. Friendly debates are acceptable, but flame wars are NOT! Personal attacks will not be tolerated, will be deleted, and could lead to suspension or your Theme Park Review membership being banned.

[Homeboy23]

The Jets pulled off the win against the Patriots. They shut down New England's offense all day.

[FeelTheFORCE]

Disappointed the Steelers lost. It's a good thing Reed is turning down the Steelers' contract extension offers because he thinks they are "too low." He sure proved that he deserves more money today.

 

Anyway, the Titans are 0-2...see what happens when you mess with the Terrible Towel. And most of you didn't believe me and just mocked me last year!

[sfkk339]

Well my Bengals pulled out a win today although they tried to blow it at the end.

[spaceace12]

Steelers steel curtain was apparently got too rusty and got holes. On the other hand, Chris Johnson apparently exploded and got 3 times the fantasy points, yeah.

[FeelTheFORCE]

^ The defense played well...held Forte to 29 yds and 2.2 per carry. It was the offense that needed to step it up. Holmes dropped too many balls, the line didn't make key blocks on 3rd downs, and Jeff Reed missed TWO field goals from not that far away.

[spaceace12]

Wow, so I haven't paid much attention to football all day since Colts didn't play today. Jets beat the Patriots, wow. Bears beat Steelers, wow and more wow.

[itsme102]

^ Actually, the Bears beat the Steelers. The Eagles lost to the Saints