Mac OS X vs. Windows

[de ja vu]

I currently use Windows XP Media Center Edtion. I have never used a Mac Operating system

[terrancew_hod]

We spent more than 1.5 hours trying to update my Grandparent's Mac's version of flash last night. Whatever happened to user friendly?

 

'nuff said.

 

That's Adobe, not apple. Most of adobe's stuff is buried and you gotta find it. My roommate bought a mac last year and I didn't show him anything and he has no problem updating software or even finding stuff. The only thing I set up on his mac is the mail server address in Mail. But then most of time he just uses hotmail and MSN messenger to talk to people and send mail.

 

Terry

[nyanko]

Linux.

 

quoted for truth

[GMAN962]

Well, I am currently running on Windows, but I am most likely going to switch to Mac within the next week or two. I've already planned what I'm going to get, I'm just waiting for my report card...

 

So here's my story:

I've been running Windows my whole life. Up until about last year, I hated Macs, but they grew on me. I've never used Linux. When my brother's friend got his Macbook, I really noticed how nice Apple's computers can be. So I decided to get a Mac. I can't wait!

 

--Mike

[BiCoastal Kid]

So basically you are getting a Mac because it's pretty?

[GMAN962]

I never said that. I just said that thier computers as a whole are nice.

[BiCoastal Kid]

Well for the same cost you can get a non-mac laptop with better specs, install a Linux distribution on there, and still have the ease of use and security that a Mac has since the Linux kernel is very similar to the Unix kernel that forms the base of the Mac operating system.

 

Also, Linux is freeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Also, there are tons of variations depending on what type of functionality you need for yourself, and they're all still freeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Also, there are tons of freeeeeeeeeee programs for it.

Also, you can get freeeeeeee apps and run mac AND windows programs on Linux, and still have the security and fanciness.

[mb425]

Mac OS. It's more easy to work with, and the pricing is a lot less confusing. To quote Steve Jobs, “Leopard is shipping in October. Basic version, $129. Premium version, $129. Business version, $129, Enterprise version $129. Ultimate version, $129. It’s all the same…”

[terrancew_hod]

Well for the same cost you can get a non-mac laptop with better specs, install a Linux distribution on there, and still have the ease of use and security that a Mac has since the Linux kernel is very similar to the Unix kernel that forms the base of the Mac operating system.

 

Also, Linux is freeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Also, there are tons of variations depending on what type of functionality you need for yourself, and they're all still freeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Also, there are tons of freeeeeeeeeee programs for it.

Also, you can get freeeeeeee apps and run mac AND windows programs on Linux, and still have the security and fanciness.

 

I wouldn't recommend Linux for the average user. They would just get confused and ask to put windows back on their machine. Although Linux has made a lot of strides in terms of usability it's still not there to recommend to someone that can barely update their virus definitions on a regular basis.

 

I have yet to see one article that says Linux's ease of use is better than the mac. Can you link that article for me so I can check it out?

 

There are lots of free programs for both windows and macs too; in some cases the same programs that are available for linux are also available for macs as well. Mac's OS does has its Unix underpinnings. You just have to do a quick search on net and find them. Several tools and utilities that I use on my mac were originally written for linux and just recompiled.

 

But I guess the choices list at the top of the page are for EITHER windows or Mac OS; so I guess it doesn't matter what I say huh?

 

Terry

[nyanko]

I wouldn't recommend Linux for the average user. They would just get confused and ask to put windows back on their machine. Although Linux has made a lot of strides in terms of usability it's still not there to recommend to someone that can barely update their virus definitions on a regular basis.

 

Ubuntu is extremely easy to use nowadays. You can find anything with very little trouble and most commonly used things that aren't packaged with the OS are available through various package managers (as well as Ubuntu's own package manager) that just require a click to install. I've been Windows-free for a couple of months now (have dabbled with different distros of Linux since sometime in 2001 and got a CS degree from a school that mainly programmed in a UNIX environment though) and honestly I've had a few minor issues with wireless networking and filesharing, but those were worked through in less than an afternoon with a little bit of patience and a little bit of help from the Ubuntu community, which is second to none in support.

 

I don't quite know that Linux is ready for our grandmas yet, but Ubuntu is making great strides towards that area and the average somewhat-informed computer user should be able to manage it fairly easily, at least in my opinion.

[handy-andy]

Windows vista is just a rip off of mac OSX ,

 

Its mac all the way, especially when there is a way to play windows games on them now!

[Neogreeneyez]

Mac OS. It's more easy to work with, and the pricing is a lot less confusing. To quote Steve Jobs, “Leopard is shipping in October. Basic version, $129. Premium version, $129. Business version, $129, Enterprise version $129. Ultimate version, $129. It’s all the same…”

 

 

Holy Crap I can't wait for Leopard! Macs have been the best thing that has ever happened to me... I thought I would be confused and pissed when I first got my powerbook but now I'm a pro and have upgraded to a mac book pro (yay for built in isight) I look back on windows and laugh sometimes now.

[BiCoastal Kid]

I wouldn't recommend Linux for the average user. They would just get confused and ask to put windows back on their machine. Although Linux has made a lot of strides in terms of usability it's still not there to recommend to someone that can barely update their virus definitions on a regular basis.

 

Ubuntu is extremely easy to use nowadays. You can find anything with very little trouble and most commonly used things that aren't packaged with the OS are available through various package managers (as well as Ubuntu's own package manager) that just require a click to install. I've been Windows-free for a couple of months now (have dabbled with different distros of Linux since sometime in 2001 and got a CS degree from a school that mainly programmed in a UNIX environment though) and honestly I've had a few minor issues with wireless networking and filesharing, but those were worked through in less than an afternoon with a little bit of patience and a little bit of help from the Ubuntu community, which is second to none in support.

 

I don't quite know that Linux is ready for our grandmas yet, but Ubuntu is making great strides towards that area and the average somewhat-informed computer user should be able to manage it fairly easily, at least in my opinion.

 

 

This whole post is quoted for truth. Ubuntu is probably the easiest I've seen. I'll be making the switch here as soon as I can get an external hard drive, since I plan on running Linux(Probably Ubuntu desktop, or the unofficial multimedia version) on my laptop when I get it for school. Yeah, there plenty of Linux distributions that require FAR more know-how, like my friend Daniel who uses the Slackware distribution(he also knows like, 8 code languages so he can go jump off a cliff in that respect), but with some look in the community, as mentioned, you can basically find anything you need.

[terrancew_hod]

^"Quoted for truth" ?

 

Whose truth?

 

What I got of it is that it's good for the average-informed user. Help can be gotten by looking on the community forum, and it's not ready for the "grandmas" to use. If that's the truth that I pulled out of that quote then you're agreeing that it's not really for the average, uninformed user. What if you have the plain average user and he can't connect to the internet? What are his options then? The forum is out, thus he has no help.

 

Being in the industry for almost 20 years, most users aren't informed. They aren't capable to scouring a community form; they're gonna want a human voice to walk them through this issues. Only thing they know how to do is to surf for porn and bootleg music. Both Microsoft (or the OEM providing the computer) or apple does offer limited phone support for a few days. That's so they can at least get you up to speed. If I'm recommending a system to someone, I include support in their costs because I'm not going to be a 24/7 support desk for basic questions or issues. Although Ubuntu is free, they're gonna hit you with at least $250 for support per year. That's how they stay in business.

 

Sure I've heard Ubuntu is the most user friendly flavor of linux, but it still isn't ready for the regular user. If being a techie is your occupation or hobby, then you could go either way. Right now it's a good alternative for some businesses, since admins can control how users use it and what applications can be installed.

 

This article for example: (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2126937,00.asp) goes through the installation, but there were a few spots they had to do some tweaks--which I doubt the average user could do.

 

Most Mac vs Ubuntu comparisions kept bring up cryptic commands and programs that if you told them to the average person would glaze over. If I showed them the package manager, I would get cursed out by a few of my old clients, especially the doctor who complained about not getting on the internet and I went over his house and found the people remodeling his bathroom unplugged the cable to the router.

 

But once again, this is about Windows vs Mac OS X. So my discussion is really moot. Let's pick one of the above choices and discuss that.

 

Terry

[BiCoastal Kid]

Oh I definitely understand Mac market to the less-savvy crowd who need a system(and want an image). However, for the average user I do think the desktop version Ubuntu would be recommendable. More than likely, if somebody is told about Linux or researches it their own, they will be told about the support community and know how to get to it. The main thing I saw in that article that would have been complex was altering a file for resolution and dual monitors, but the average user isn't going to use a dual monitor and will more than like use the default resolution anyway. And if he can't connect to the internet, as in doesn't have it, he probably won't have Linux anyway, but even if it's a connectivity issue he could still reboot to his Windows installation, which we're assuming he would leave installed until after he had all of his desired files properly transported to Linux, and connect there(as he is probably able to do, and probably downloaded Linux this way) and access the forums there for support.

 

It may not be ready for "grandmas," but in the sense this is meant, these people aren't going to be able to do much on computers in general and would probably need some form of help regardless of the system they're running.

 

Also, where did you get the $250 for support from? I can't find anywhere where you're charged to access the Ubuntu documentation or the community.

[nyanko]

Also, where did you get the $250 for support from? I can't find anywhere where you're charged to access the Ubuntu documentation or the community.

 

Wondering this as well. There is a WEALTH of information available on irc.freenode.net #ubuntu, the main Ubuntu documentation, the Ubuntu forums, Ubuntu wiki not to mention everyone's favorite resource, Google.

 

Pretty sure the pay-for canonical support is not really for the average desktop user but is for businesses whose livelihoods and money depend on the stability and quick resolution of problems of their operating system. For the average person who uses their computer and internet connection to download tranny porn and episodes of Mad About You this isn't a huge deal. Again, I've never really had to go beyond the forums, IRC and Google for any of my support needs. There is ALWAYS either someone willing to help me or to point to where my question has been answered before. I'm willing to concede some points, but the support one is not one of them. The community support is just outstanding.

[terrancew_hod]

http://www.ubuntu.com/support/paid

 

It's right off the main page at the right where it said World Class technical support. You guys shouldn't have missed that.

 

I think you guys are missing the point, since you are naming resources such as IRC, that the average user wouldn't know what it is. Both of you guys seem smart and know about linux. But I'm talking about the uninformed user off the street. If they don't know where to get it, then your argument is already in trouble. I know of it from coworkers and from the various technical sites I read. The average user is not going to build a computer; they are going to get it from some retail outlet. The only retailer that sells linux I know of offhand is Dell, and that's for business. Why is it that no retailer will sell a linux system to the regular user? I'm figuring between the demand and support costs, it's not worth it for them.

 

Every systems needs an initial level of support; just because something is free at the initial outlay doesn't mean it's still going be cheaper in the long run.

 

Now I'm not saying Ubuntu isn't friendly to the informed; I installed a version of linux on one of my computers. But it's all about knowing your users and I've been doing this since I was 17. I'm looking at this from the user's standpoint; but I'm thinking neither of you are.

 

Terry

[BiCoastal Kid]

I don't see how somebody not knowing about Linux would put our argument in trouble, since if they don't know about Linux they wouldn't be looking for Linux support. It just makes it non-applicable to said user. I also don't think you can say that Linux is at a lack of demand considering that most people don't even know about it. Give it the same amount of advertising and preinstallations as Windows and Mac and I think you'd see it do just as well. The problem is exposure, not desire. Most of the off the street people you're talking about are basically going to like, or at least handle, what you give them. That's why Windows still does so well with the uninformed even though it's the devil.

 

Also, the professional assistance is expensive yeah, but you'd really only need it in cases of like DIRE emergency. Most problems can be easily addressed by asking about it on the free forum.

[terrancew_hod]

Most problems can be easily addressed by asking about it on the free forum.

 

Let me ask you a question.

 

What do you do for a living? Have you worked computer phone support with people or provided desktop support for users in a company? Have you done side work where you did "house calls" for computer problems? To be honest I don't think you have, else you wouldn't be telling me about "they can ask in a forum."

 

The problem is, until you get the experience like I have, you won't know even though you think you have the answers. I get people coming to my desk that supposedly know so much about computers and say "I don't know how to put this in words so I can enter it in the helpdesk application." Now apply that to someone that doesn't even have someone to ask that sort of thing, and you want them to put a post in a forum instead of getting some type of phone support?

 

OK. That's where are differences are. Different perspectives based on experience. So I'll leave it at that.

 

Moving back to the original topic, because there's no point going 'round and 'round on something that's derailing the thread.

 

Hopefully I can start saving up for a new Mac Book Pro in September after the coaster trip in August. But you know in the Mac vs Windows argument, it all comes down to what you want to use it for. People would ask me about a computer and the first thing I would ask them is "What do you plan on using it for?" They would usually have to stop and think for a minute. Right now I have a few macs and a dell laptop at home. I use my macs more because that is my personal computer to me. If I have to log in to the network at work or do some coding at home, that's when I pull windows out. Most of my gaming is done on windows, but I hardly have time for that now.

 

When others are getting machines they want to make sure they can go to the store and buy any hardware, such as a webcam or printer and be able to plug it in and it works. The want to be able to go to the store and buy a program off the shelf and install it without having to call for help. And of course they want their ipod or other music player to be able to be plug and go too. So once we hash out the details, they have a better idea of what os they want to use.

[KrakenKing]

I like both, so that's why I have both on my HP laptop... Hurray OSx86!

 

I'm able to Duel Boot the Operating Systems now... I officially have a hackentosh

 

Any computer running an Intel x86 chip can handle the hacked version of OSX... it was very complicated to do, but now I have OSX 10.4.8 and Windows XP running on the system.

 

There is a way to Triple Boot and Quad Boot, so I may add Windows Vista and Linux as well.

[nyanko]

There is a way to Triple Boot and Quad Boot, so I may add Windows Vista and Linux as well.

 

Incidentally, Windows Vista is not worth it. There is literally no point at all to putting Vista on there if you already have XP on it.

[coasterfan200692]

Vista sucks because it doesn't function properly with the progrmas on XP, but I much prefer windows.

[doublex98]

Windows for gaming and such.

Mac for video editing.

[GMAN962]

Most problems can be easily addressed by asking about it on the free forum.

 

Let me ask you a question.

 

What do you do for a living? Have you worked computer phone support with people or provided desktop support for users in a company? Have you done side work where you did "house calls" for computer problems? To be honest I don't think you have, else you wouldn't be telling me about "they can ask in a forum."

 

The problem is, until you get the experience like I have, you won't know even though you think you have the answers. I get people coming to my desk that supposedly know so much about computers and say "I don't know how to put this in words so I can enter it in the helpdesk application." Now apply that to someone that doesn't even have someone to ask that sort of thing, and you want them to put a post in a forum instead of getting some type of phone support?

 

OK. That's where are differences are. Different perspectives based on experience. So I'll leave it at that.

 

Moving back to the original topic, because there's no point going 'round and 'round on something that's derailing the thread.

 

Hopefully I can start saving up for a new Mac Book Pro in September after the coaster trip in August. But you know in the Mac vs Windows argument, it all comes down to what you want to use it for. People would ask me about a computer and the first thing I would ask them is "What do you plan on using it for?" They would usually have to stop and think for a minute. Right now I have a few macs and a dell laptop at home. I use my macs more because that is my personal computer to me. If I have to log in to the network at work or do some coding at home, that's when I pull windows out. Most of my gaming is done on windows, but I hardly have time for that now.

 

When others are getting machines they want to make sure they can go to the store and buy any hardware, such as a webcam or printer and be able to plug it in and it works. The want to be able to go to the store and buy a program off the shelf and install it without having to call for help. And of course they want their ipod or other music player to be able to be plug and go too. So once we hash out the details, they have a better idea of what os they want to use.

 

I didn't know I was going to cause a Linux/OSX debate when I posed that!

 

Seriously, this isn't Linux vs. OSX. You should stay on the topic.

 

-Mike

[terrancew_hod]

^Um, I guessed you missed these sentences from my post you quoted:

 

Moving back to the original topic, because there's no point going 'round and 'round on something that's derailing the thread.

 

Hopefully I can start saving up for a new Mac Book Pro in September after the coaster trip in August. But you know in the Mac vs Windows argument, it all comes down to what you want to use it for.

 

...

 

Go ahead and look what you quoted me on, it's there. Then you also missed the subsequent posts that were back on topic.

 

Guess you derailed the thread again. You should probably pay more attention before you chastise me!

 

Let me put it back on track once again.

 

KrakenKing, how big is your hard drive for the OSX86? I before I got my intel-based mac mini, I installed the hacked version on my laptop. It was pretty fast and I used it to encode some video to put on my ipod. I like the fact that there are a few free utilities out there to compress video from my DVD collection to watch on my ipod and get songs off of it when my hard drive on my powermac went south.

 

I remember years ago when I bought this kit from a company to put mac hardware in a PC case. I had about 4 hard drives and 2 DVD writers in it; more than what you could put in Powermac at the time. I posted the pictures of it on the web and the diehard mac people went crazy! You should have saw some of the emails and posts I got! Of course I read the boots off of them, gee, I'm an angel in my posts here compared to what I said to them on the other forum!

 

Eventually apple strongarmed the company and put them out of business, but a week after they did they dropped the prices on the machines to about what the guy was selling them for! So I guess I did my part at the time to get Apple to budge on their prices.

 

About a few months later I bought my apple laptop; I attributed that to my PC case-based mac... I got a chance to play around with a cheap mac and liked what I saw.

 

My preference is for mac, although I wished they had a lot more configurations available for me. Like a mac mini with a decent video card. You know something I can plug into the 20-inch monitor I already have. I don't really need an iMac since it includes the screen; but if I could get a mini with the iMac internals, life would be good.

 

Terry