Holiday Park Discussion Thread

[JimmyBo]

Robb and Elissa are roller coaster Gods. Don't mess with the Gods or you will experience the Wrath of the Gods.

 

Jimmy "There's my biblical reference on a Sunday" Bo

[Six Flags Enthuseast]

I know I am not supposed to place internet links yet, but I have found a video-interview with Rudi Mallasch that was not yet posted here.

 

You're ok, just as long as you aren't linking to your own profile or blog on another website to TPR.

[Columbia]

Not to be confused with newspaper or tv broadcast of course, that could do a lot of damage since it makes a lot of people believe in whatever media people see fit. Internetdiscussions can´t do a lot of damage, since those who KNOW dont TALK and vice versa.

Thank you Norman! I appreciate someone with your industry experience actually weeding through the crap that sometimes can get posted and still taking the time to respond! To be fair though, I am contacted by media all the time. And when you see links to Theme Park Review appear on CNN, Los Angeles Times, etc, I want to ensure that in the off chance someone clicks those links, the discussion they will find is mature banter within the group not a bunch of adults acting like children.

 

since those who KNOW dont TALK and vice versa.

Yep. I hear you loud and clear!

 

All that could possibly happen would be that 1% of all roller coaster riders might become a little nervous about - say - Intamin rides To be frank, thats ridiculous - no one needs roller coasters for everyday purposes, so any unsafe products would be ruled out by market soon. Not to mention by TÜV, lawsuits, park reputation, tv reports and whatnot.

1 vote for the most intelligent statement in this thread so far!

 

People in the amusement business know about the relevance of web community activities.

And this is one of my daily challenges. Most people in the amusement business look at web communities as a total joke due mainly in part by the type of discussion that has carried on for the past few pages. I will say though that the one common thread I hear from industry professionals is how well moderated we keep the forum "free from crap" and that for the most part, you can actually read our forum without getting frustrated or annoyed. I take that as a personal compliment. And if means I have to delete crap posts or ban crap posters to keep the quality to a level where professionals in this business will go the extra mile for us, and then in turn I can deliver that extra mile back to our non-crap posters, it's what I'm going to continue to do!

 

Theme Park Review has more amusement industry members reading *and* actually posting to this site than ANY OTHER web forum out there. And those members mean a lot more to me than someone who will continue arguing over nonesense.

 

^ +1

 

It's amazing - "enthusiasts" learn one thing about a coaster and that seems to automatically make them knowledgeable with the entire operations and maintenance manuals for such attractions. (Re: Cable Inspection Discussion)

 

Robb makes several good points - as great as the internet is for sourcing information...there are MANY news media outlets who will find these types of boards and use them "as fact" to report on.

 

Just like the social networking sites, coaster message boards have their levels of relevancy and TPR is one of the most relevant to it's industry...which is why they (TPR) have such great relationships with parks. Something tells me the "ROTF LOL OMG B&M 600 ft. Coaster" sites don't have that same type of relationship. They're the type that gets printed and posted on the pegboard for the office to laugh at. (Actually happenned)

 

I applaud your efforts, Robb - it's no easy task, that's for sure!

 

Accidents and incidents will occur - it's inevitable. What really matters is, "Did you learn anything from it?" Aviation was built on the backs of accidents - the industry learned from each one, and is much better off for it.

 

Kris "I HAVE amusement industry experience - but not in maintenance, hence me not saying anything specific about this event!" Rowberry

[dougr]

This is why B&M is my favorite coaster company! Regardless of whose fault it is, this should have NEVER happened!

 

So even if Intamin had nothing to do with it, you're still comparing manufacturers? Holiday Park has had this coaster for 9 years, and Intamin's liability for the ride has LONG since past. It's practically the same thing with Xcelerator, only KBF has had that for 8 years. Is it Ron Toomer's (or Arrow's) fault that Magnum slipped through the breaks and "crashed" in 2007? Was it Schwarzkopf's fault when Mindbender killed three people? The answer to all those is a resounding "no." Once the park gets a coaster in operation, it's THEIR responsibility to maintain the ride.

 

 

Well, yes....it was partially Schwarzkopf's fault in the Mindbender accident. Maybe you should get your facts straight. The accident happen approx. 6 months after opening. The company was found partially at fault for lack of providing proper maintenance procedures, or something like that, to the park. The accident pretty much bankrupted the company because they were found to be partially at fault.

 

It is quote obvious from the photos that an entire rear truck assembly came off of a car in the middle of the train, and the train *probably* dragged on the track causing it to stop. Unfortunately this is not the first time this has happen on a coaster. Beyond that I would say you can't assume much until (or if) more details are released to the public.

 

Regards,

Ted

 

It turned out that the Mindbender maintenance manual hadn't been translated from German. In the Xcelerator incident, it was unclear whether the cable was supposed to be inspected every six months or every month. According to one news report, Knott's asked Intamin to clarify and Intamin DIDN'T GET BACK TO THEM. Of course, when CalOSHA asked after the incident, Intamin said it was supposed to be inspected monthly.

 

Where does Intamin's responsibility end and the park's begin?

Knott's is going to use magnetic induction inspection every month-better than visual inspection. Mindbender gets checked thoroughly visually inspected every couple of hours.

Should these manufactuers be training maintenance crews and requiring more thorough inspections, instead of signing off?

[robbalvey]

Where does Intamin's responsibility end and the park's begin?

 

From what I understand, when they turn the ride over to the park. Sure, they are still on hand for support, and if there is a flaw in the design of a ride it is my understanding that a manufacturer has certain contractual liabilities to address them, but in the case where a cable system or a train has been working just fine for 9 years of service, it might be more questionable where or if any blame lies.

 

And you can continue to try to point the finger anywhere you'd like, but there are cases where "sh1t happens!"

 

This is a very important and true statement:

 

Aviation was built on the backs of accidents - the industry learned from each one, and is much better off for it.

And look how many decades people have been flying now and it keeps getting safer every year.

 

I think a lot of people are underestimating for, what a roller coaster actually does, and the forces it goes through, and the amount of times it repeats such actions on a daily basis, how safe they *really* are!

 

--Robb

Edited May 2, 2010 by robbalvey

[KrautWithAltitude]

I am not sure if I am getting right what is being posted about Mindbender here. There is that famous book by Klaus Schützmannsky (forgive me any misspellings) about Werner Stengel. In it, the cause of the tragedy is clearly described. It says that around the time Mindbender was being made, Schwartzkopf went broke or was put out of business, I don´t remember exactly. A different management/workshop team took over and made a fatal mistake by not reducing the track gauge in curves which would have been required by the pivot geometry. Thus the bolts of the wheel assemblies got way too much stress and had to break. The rest became history. The ground beneath the track was found to be scattered with broken bolts and everybody scratched his head about it, but it was up to Werner Stengel to take into investigation and find out why those bolts broke at all. So he was summoned as an expert consultant and it was not Schwartzkopfs personal fault, because he and Werner Stengel were of course aware of such geometry details, they made a lot of still awesome epic rollercoasters together... thats roughly how I read it, please make your own impression

 

Get that book if you can, it is awesome! (but sold out )

 

edit: And by the way, if I understand anything, the EGF incident can not have the same cause as the Mindbender one. Today, technology is so advanced that not even shit is allowed to happen anymore. There is always somebody to point the finger at, even if something happened under the most unlikely circumstances in the most cutting edge technology (Apollo 13, Challenger, you name it). But don´t let that fact delude you into thinking that things will ever be fail safe just because someone has to pick up his walking papers if they don´t

[robinschroder]

Get that book if you can, it is awesome! (but sold out )

 

Do you own the German version (the release of which I believe coincided with the Stengel exhibition in München)? There was supposed to be a reissued English version a while back, but it still has yet to be released! Although I note that one seller is trying their luck at £326.01 with a used copy via Amazon... Maybe one day it'll come out! I'm sure there are many of us here on TPR that have from time to time put 'Werner Stengel' into an eBay search in the hope of finding that book. Anyway... back to GeForce...

[Team Thriller]

Does anyone have an idea about how long it could take for the ride to be up and running again? Do you think it will be running within two weeks?

 

--James

[themeparkologist]

Where does Intamin's responsibility end and the park's begin?

 

From what I understand, when they turn the ride over to the park. Sure, they are still on hand for support, and if there is a flaw in the design of a ride it is my understanding that a manufacturer has certain contractual liabilities to address them, but in the case where a cable system or a train has been working just fine for 9 years of service, it might be more questionable where or if any blame lies.

 

And you can continue to try to point the finger anywhere you'd like, but there are cases where "sh1t happens!"

 

Aren't there also cases in which the subcontractors are to blame? What about shipping companies that may have caused damage? Or even the company that assembled the ride?

 

I know these can't possibly relate EGF because of how long it has been operating, but that being said, couldn't they *theoretically* be suspects on other, new-ride accidents?

[traincrossin]

Does anyone have an idea about how long it could take for the ride to be up and running again? Do you think it will be running within two weeks?

 

--James

Expedition GeForce won't open until the TüV allows it to. There is no neeed to rush their inspection, especially when people's safety is on the line. So it will open when Holiday Park and the TüV says that the ride is safe. Could be days, weeks, months, who knows.

[everyavenue]

No one's dead, no ones *severely* hurt, no severe damage (from what we can see) has been done. Find the cause, fix it, and prevent it from happening again. Isn't it as simple as that? At least in my eyes it is. I didn't know something as minor as this could spark a blame war against Holiday Park or Intamin. Maybe if you know, the ride pulled a Final Destination and people fell to their deaths, that would be different. But they didn't, so maybe we should just calm down and let the people who need to handle it, handle it? Rather then having all of these people going on a rampage against something that, in reality, isn't that big of a deal. "Oh my, the wheels CAME OFF the tracks!! SCARY! ". Let's not forget, people die in car accidents every day, sometimes trains collide and derail, and occasionally a plane falls from the sky. Probably more dangerous and scary then a minor incident like this on a roller coaster, which is obviously safer then any three of those things. Maybe some of you should gain a little maturity, be thankful no one is hurt, and watch as the park recovers from this, in my eyes, minor incident. Nothing works 100% perfectly.

[robbalvey]

^ My thoughts exactly. There were just some people who purposely wanted this to be a bigger deal. Really, I think a bigger deal to me would be to try and find that awesome book that Norman was talking about! THAT seems really kick ass!

 

--Robb

[AllenA07]

Where does Intamin's responsibility end and the park's begin?

 

From what I understand, when they turn the ride over to the park. Sure, they are still on hand for support, and if there is a flaw in the design of a ride it is my understanding that a manufacturer has certain contractual liabilities to address them, but in the case where a cable system or a train has been working just fine for 9 years of service, it might be more questionable where or if any blame lies.

 

And you can continue to try to point the finger anywhere you'd like, but there are cases where "sh1t happens!"

 

Looking at this from a purely legal standpoint Intamin is going to have some responsibility. If I were hired as the lawyer on this case (assuming that there would be a case to begin with, and assuming that the law in Germany is similar to Products Liabilities Law in the United States) I would sue Intamin citing design defects as well as Manufacturing Defects. I'd also throw a suit out there against Holiday Park for negligence in maintaining the ride. Those are the three things that you'd almost always want to claim in any case that is like this. In terms of the train I'd want to know if the park was maintaining it in the manner proscribed by Intamin, any history of problems, the expected life span of the part that broke, was the park using the broken part correctly, as well as a few other things. Also I'd want to know if there is a statute of repose in place, which could relieve liability if enough time has passed. Generally in the United States those tend to hover right around 15 years, not sure what they are (or if they exist) in Germany.

 

If nobody was really injured I don't think the park will have that much to worry about. At least in the United States product liabilities cases are extraordinarily expensive to bring(especially if they decide to go with a claim of design defect, in which case many jurisdictions require you to design a "reasonable alternative design"). If nobody was really injured damages are going to be minimal, I don't really think it would be worth the time or the effort of an attorney to do much. Without an injury the cost of litigation would likely be far more than any potential award. So in that regard I would be surprised to see any legal action taken.

[downunder]

Has it re-opened yet?

 

Please read disclaimer at the bottom of the page before launching flames.

[hyyyper]

 

Looking at this from a purely legal standpoint Intamin is going to have some responsibility. If I were hired as the lawyer on this case (assuming that there would be a case to begin with, and assuming that the law in Germany is similar to Products Liabilities Law in the United States) I would sue Intamin citing design defects as well as Manufacturing Defects. I'd also throw a suit out there against Holiday Park for negligence in maintaining the ride. Those are the three things that you'd almost always want to claim in any case that is like this. In terms of the train I'd want to know if the park was maintaining it in the manner proscribed by Intamin, any history of problems, the expected life span of the part that broke, was the park using the broken part correctly, as well as a few other things. Also I'd want to know if there is a statute of repose in place, which could relieve liability if enough time has passed. Generally in the United States those tend to hover right around 15 years, not sure what they are (or if they exist) in Germany.

 

If nobody was really injured I don't think the park will have that much to worry about. At least in the United States product liabilities cases are extraordinarily expensive to bring(especially if they decide to go with a claim of design defect, in which case many jurisdictions require you to design a "reasonable alternative design"). If nobody was really injured damages are going to be minimal, I don't really think it would be worth the time or the effort of an attorney to do much. Without an injury the cost of litigation would likely be far more than any potential award. So in that regard I would be surprised to see any legal action taken.

 

I'm not sure if you are that good of a lawyer by sueing everybody at the same time without the first inspection done. I don't think it's a design flaw because Intamin has coasters like this all over the planet and this is (i think) the first time an axle broke. So that leaves 3 options. Either Holiday Park didn't inspected the ride properly, the axle was not manufactured properly or something (another piece of train perhaps?) hit the axle so hard it broke.

 

Untill more details are known, I'm just gonna sit back and mind my own business.

[KrautWithAltitude]

Concerning the book about Mr. Stengel - I`m sorry I can´t offer anybody a copy, mine is the german issue from the Stengel exhibition in Munich back in... when was it? 1999? I´ve heard the rumors about a reprint as well, no idea why they don´t do this, and an american translation above all

[Rocket Rodder]

I'm.... I'm shocked. I actually had no idea of any accident until tonight. First thing that came to my mind was ... "Of all the great roller coasters, why this one...?" But then again, whenever there is an accident, don't we all think that?

 

I am truly glad no one got hurt. And like someone else said... "Stuff happens!"

 

Perhaps... it could have just been a freak accident? Perhaps... one of those one in a million chance encounters...?

 

 

I ramble... Haha. I am glad no one got seriously injured though. Go Intamin for having safety backup systems!

[Tmcdllr]

What is the title of this super awesome book?

[AllenA07]

I'm not sure if you are that good of a lawyer by sueing everybody at the same time without the first inspection done. I don't think it's a design flaw because Intamin has coasters like this all over the planet and this is (i think) the first time an axle broke. So that leaves 3 options. Either Holiday Park didn't inspected the ride properly, the axle was not manufactured properly or something (another piece of train perhaps?) hit the axle so hard it broke.

 

Untill more details are known, I'm just gonna sit back and mind my own business.

 

In real life I would of course wait for the inspection to be done, however suing for a design defect tends to be a pretty typical claim you would want to throw out there in this kind of a case. Just because a company has thousands of products out there that work fine and have never had a problem, you'd claim that this one just happens to be the first to have a problem. You're going to lose 100% of the causes that you fail to allege. With all that said I really want to emphasis that Design Defects are very expensive to sue for however, so it should be kept in mind that unless there is a real chance at recovery (which I just don't see in this case, since nobody was injured) these are going to be prohibitively claims to make.

[ginzo]

^I wonder how hard it would be to get expert witnesses competent enough to testify against Intamin as far as steel coaster design defects are concerned. Aren't they about as expert as it gets? I also wonder if anyone who did have the expertise would be willing to testify against a company they could potentially work for in this VERY small field.

[AllenA07]

^It would be a huge hurdle to clear! Not sure what German law is, but in the United States there are a lot of Jurisdictions where an expert (experts are required to prove a design defect case) is going to have to come in and state what he would have done differently (and some places even require a prototype). This is going to be a very difficult problem when you're dealing with a small industry. If it were me I'd want to seek out a designer from either another company, or a lot of times you'll bring in a professor to serve as your witness.

 

Of course there are now engineering firms that do absolutely nothing other then supply experts, so there is always that option.

[Imhotep]

Pretty insane, but Sh1t happens, as said previously. As long as no one gets hurt or -god forbid- killed, you have to give them credit for creating a ride that even on the off chance something goes terribly wrong, there is an extremely good chance you will live to ride another day.

 

Also, the B&M vs Intamin accident comparison is pointless, I can see where others can be frustrated seeing this. It only comes up between enthusiasts. To the GP, there may as well only be one coaster manufacturer... So If Intamin's accident record really were to affect the GP and how much they ride roller coasters, B&M would also suffer. On the flip side, the enthusiasts who know the difference wouldn't be deterred from riding an Intamin coaster, including the one that had the accident.. So the argument is moot.

 

I'm sure the above already been said in this thread. If so it could probably stand to be repeated. If they want to fly me out to Germany, I'd gladly be first in line to ride this thing when they get it fixed. It would make an awesome 30th birthday present

[larrygator]

What is the title of this super awesome book?

 

Google

[themeparkman25]

Deleted by author

Edited January 20, 2011 by themeparkman25

[larrygator]

^I googled more, and am finding the book for sale for either $300 or $30, thoughts?

 

My thoughts on the topic:

If it is a 3 followed by 2 zeroes, that is $300.

If it is a 3 followed by 1 zero, that is $30.

$30 is a better bargain than $300.