Holiday Park Discussion Thread

[Kennyweird]

Since Voyager just answered how the train would slow down in this situation, then what prevents the train from completely derailing?

 

A more meaningful question would be "what prevented the trains from completely derailing?" I doubt Intamin gave this type of scenario much consideration, since it's never supposed to happen anyway. In a way, your question is kind of like asking what keeps a plane from crashing when its wings fall off.

 

But to answer your question, I'm guessing the couplers between the cars kept it from completely derailing. Of course, we don't know much at this point, but I'm guessing this whole thing is the result of some really poor maintenance.

[Ledgy]

Let's give some credit where it's due and look at what DID happen, rather than focusing on the "would COULD have happened."

Wow, I´m shocked about the news. Didn´t find any news, but agree in looking at what DID happen. I think KrautWithAltitude does it say right:

... The other statement is that about mortal danger. What if some of that flying debris hit you straight in the face? It was pure luck no one was hit by flying scrap! This park guy has to show nerve, I bet he thanked the lord all day long!...

...Since plastic bandages of coaster wheels are kind of an achilles heel and thus may come off, trains must be made to resist the forces of a derailed coach. Normally, it wouldnt completely derail like it seems to have happened on EGF, it would still be on track, but dragging. Why aren´t there better pictures of the train? Park must have been full of people, as the train was ??? All that I can see is that a whole wheel assembly seems to be missing. This was a serious malfunction for sure, but will we ever know? As I know "our" press, they will never catch up on it again. But don´t you blame it on the maintenance crew! Those guys know what they are doing. If you are looking for someone to blame, put it on the management. That will always do

 

What I missed in his quote of the newspapers was, that they mentioned, that the ride was inspected by the TÜV (german association for Technical Inspection) one week before! So if there was a technical teteriotation they should have seen it!? If not, the suspect comes more to the maintanance issue and not a material issue? Or the TÜV didn´t their work faithful? - OK, now I made a speculation, too. But I´m very confused about the TÜV check one week before.

 

I was also interested in the pictures. I enlarge the picture where you can see, that one wheel axle is missing, but know I can see, that 2 wheel axles are derailed! The one in the front lies on the rails - maybe derailed while the accident happend:

 

[Vekoma Fan Boy]

Since Voyager just answered how the train would slow down in this situation, then what prevents the train from completely derailing?

 

A more meaningful question would be "what prevented the trains from completely derailing?" I doubt Intamin gave this type of scenario much consideration, since it's never supposed to happen anyway. In a way, your question is kind of like asking what keeps a plane from crashing when its wings fall off.

 

But to answer your question, I'm guessing the couplers between the cars kept it from completely derailing. Of course, we don't know much at this point, but I'm guessing this whole thing is the result of some really poor maintenance.

 

 

It would be the fact that the cars are all connected to one another. The trains have 8 sets of wheels, 1 for each of the 7 passenger cars and 1 for the zero car. Only one of the set on the back of car 4 failed, so car 4 "derailed." The other 7 sets of wheels did not fail and kept the rest of the train from derailing.

[sixflagsguy5]

From what I've observed, many roller coasters have steel extending above, under, and on the side of the rail in order to prevent de-railing. This is done so that in the case of a wheel(s) becoming disconnected from the axle, the train is still constrained to the track. However, with a design of three wheels per side of each car (so 3 on left, 3 or right side of individual car), the train could still become disconnected, because it is not entirely constrained anymore. For example look at the knex screamin serpent cars. You can twist those about 30* and get them to come out of the track. When the side friction wheels become disconnected you risk the train derailing much more easily than you do with the other wheels.

 

If you look at a vekoma SLC, they have two top wheels (ride wheels?) per side of each car. In between these two wheels is a plastic (or rubber) bumper which in the case of a derailment would be contact the track and cause the train to slow down. I have no idea how an intamin hyper coaster is constructed, but I would imagine there is some sort of device like this. Obviously it is very difficult to determine how well this design works, because these types of situations rarely occur.

 

I'm sure the park will have the ride down for awhile just to ensure that they know what happened. They can't risk re-opening the ride with the other train in the rare case that this were to occur with the other train. I still think this looks like one of the best out there.

[B-RadG]

Going to the fact that it stopped in an odd place, I'm going to guess that the entire axle came off (and the picture shows that, as well)

When I went on the behind-the-scenes tour at BGW the tour guide pointed out the odd things on Loch Ness Monster's wheel assemblies (they're on all Arrows) and said "Yes, it would be steel on steel and would not sound pretty, but it would get you safely back to the station if a wheel came off." so with that being said, if it were just one wheel it would probably make it back to the station, albeit a rough ride. Whether Intamin has these on their trains or not I'm not sure, but I would assume so as Arrow had enough sense to have them.

[MattyD]

I hope I am not repeating anything that has already been said here, but is it possible it could have been a metal fracture in the wheel assembly somewhere?

 

Don't want to speculate too much but if I remember my A Level Physics, and please correct me if I am wrong, there are two main types of metal fractures, Brittle and Ductile, and neither are necessarily that obvious to the naked eye, small hairline cracks in the surface etc, so niether intamin, the maintenance guys, or the god Gary Sinise himself could have spotted them.

 

I am sure I remember being shown how some of these fractures are only visible on XRay before they actually break completely and no park is going to XRay their trains, that's just ridiculous.

 

I think my point is just that it is possible that no one is to blame in this incident, these things can happen and luckily there are safety systems in place to prevent disasterous results, it is possible no one could have possibly forseen or prevented this. I was just trying to use some physics to back my ideas up!

 

Ultimately I hope they can determine the cause soon, get the ride back up and running and that it doesn't reflect too badly on the park or Intamin.

 

Matt

[Ledgy]

There is a new newspaper article: Rhein-Zeitung (German local paper)

Technischer Defekt Ursache für Achterbahn-Panne

 

Haßloch Nach der Achterbahn-Panne im Holiday Park Haßloch in der Pfalz ist nach Angaben des Betreibers noch ungewiss, wann die «Expedition GeForce» wieder fahrbereit ist. Park-Sprecher Rudi Mallasch sagte auf dpa-Anfrage am Freitag, der TÜV sei noch vor Ort. Die Anlage bleibe bis zum Abschluss der Untersuchungen außer Betrieb.

 

Nach bisherigen Erkenntnissen führte ein technischer Defekt an der Achse eines Wagens dazu, dass dieser bei dem Vorfall am Mittwochnachmittag aus der Spur sprang. Der Zug mit 26 Fahrgästen an Bord blieb daraufhin in etwa 20 Metern Höhe stehen. Die Feuerwehr befreite die Besucher mit Hilfe von Drehleitern aus der Bahn.

It´s been told, that it seems to be a technical issue on the axle of the car. It seems to be proved, that the axle derailed, while the coaster was on the ride, so it caused the accident. The TÜV (Association for Technical Inspection) keeps going on the tests at the coaster and the ride stays closed, until the analysis completely finished.

 

It seems to me, that you could be right with your speculations:

Don't want to speculate too much but if I remember my A Level Physics, and please correct me if I am wrong, there are two main types of metal fractures, Brittle and Ductile, and neither are necessarily that obvious to the naked eye, small hairline cracks in the surface etc, so niether intamin, the maintenance guys, or the god Gary Sinise himself could have spotted them.

 

I am sure I remember being shown how some of these fractures are only visible on XRay before they actually break completely and no park is going to XRay their trains, that's just ridiculous.

 

I think my point is just that it is possible that no one is to blame in this incident, these things can happen and luckily there are safety systems in place to prevent disasterous results, it is possible no one could have possibly forseen or prevented this. I was just trying to use some physics to back my ideas up!

 

Ultimately I hope they can determine the cause soon, get the ride back up and running and that it doesn't reflect too badly on the park or Intamin.

 

Matt

[Kennyweird]

 

I am sure I remember being shown how some of these fractures are only visible on XRay before they actually break completely and no park is going to XRay their trains, that's just ridiculous.

 

Matt

 

Actually, non-destructive testing is fairly standard in the amusement park industry. For instance, Skycoaster Inc. requires that all their scissor lifts undergo yearly NDT weld analysis. Now, I don't know much about Expedition Geforce's wheel assemblies, but I'd have to imagine they take a lot more stress than a Skycoaster scissor lift. If Holiday Park wasn't performing regular NDT on the assemblies, they could be found negligent.

[MattyD]

Actually, non-destructive testing is fairly standard in the amusement park industry. For instance, Skycoaster Inc. requires that all their scissor lifts undergo yearly NDT weld analysis. Now, I don't know much about Expedition Geforce's wheel assemblies, but I'd have to imagine they take a lot more stress than a Skycoaster scissor lift. If Holiday Park wasn't performing regular NDT on the assemblies, they could be found negligent.

 

I stand corrected, I knew that the rides obviously had to undergo various tests and maintenance just wasn't sure how indepth they were, thank you for the extra info!

 

Matt

[jynx242]

..., or the god Gary Sinise himself could have spotted them.

 

 

Matt

 

Loved this!

[CorkscrewFoley]

Actually, it would have been Grisome.

 

I;m just glad everyone was okay, and were able to walk away with some minor bumps and such. So any accident you can walk away from is a good one. I think this is what we should be focusing on as well.

[tiger01]

I believe that on page 1 there is a picture wich shows the main track broken. I'm sorry if I have repeated anything. But on the picture...

There is a snap, (If that is the cable thingy i'm sorry i'm not exactly smart)

[robbalvey]

I am sure I remember being shown how some of these fractures are only visible on XRay before they actually break completely and no park is going to XRay their trains, that's just ridiculous.

Actually, it's not ridiculous at all. Sending out the trains for X-Ray or using mobile scanning units to test the track for stress fractures or other issues is actually a common practice. Most parks do this at least once per year for each coaster.

 

EDIT - sorry this info was already posted on the previous page. I do think it's important to point out though that we should all be VERY careful posting such information as "no park is going to X-Ray their trains" unless you really know for sure...because EVERY PARK actually does X-Ray their trains!

Edited April 30, 2010 by robbalvey

[Loefet]

Good thing that Expedition GeForce is in Germany and not in Japan, if it were then it would be closed now for 3+ years until anyone would be allowed to ride it again. Just like SD2k was and Titan V is (have been closed for 2 years now)...

 

 

By the way, you don't really need to X-ray axles, track, etc. to see if there is fractures on them, you could also use ultrasound to do it (much like medical sonography). It's a much more portable technology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasonic_testing

[PAL]

^^^ The circled protrusion appears to be the front left and rear left corners of displaced cars. If you look at the angle shot from the rear, you'll see what I mean.

[Guest]

Does anyone have an idea of how much time it would take to fix a problem like that and make EGF run again?

[sorry if my question is stupid but I just want to know witch are the steps to repair that!]

 

Basing it off of the recent Xcelerator incident, I would say at least 9 months or longer, depending on the safety rules that are required.

[robbalvey]

Basing it off of the recent Xcelerator incident, I would say at least 9 months or longer, depending on the safety rules that are required.

Well, that assumes that damage has been done to the ride that makes it inoperable. Technically, if there wasn't any damage done to the track itself, they could open the ride tomorrow with the other train.

 

How long did it take Wild Thing to re-open after it's train derailed? Or The Demon after it's wheel assembly failure?

 

Really, it's up to the park and the TÜV to determine how serious of an incident this really was. If it's clear an obvious what has happened and a fix can be prepared and tested rather quickly, then you may not see much downtime. And the fact that there were no serious injuries, not even as serious as the Xcelerator incident may help speed up that process.

 

If it's a mystery as to what went wrong, and the required fix may be a series of adjustments and tests, then it could be months.

 

My guess would be that if no activity happens within the next couple of weeks, then it could be a while before we see the ride up and running again. But none of us here are qualified to make any assessments on it as of right now.

 

--Robb

Edited April 30, 2010 by robbalvey

[pkdcoaster]

What hill did this happen on? Can anybody familiar with the ride confirm which one?

 

At first I thought it was the lift but that is Not the lift hill "box" track.

 

Very Scary incident, I wonder if this will affect other Intamin hypers/gigas this weekend

 

JEFF

[Blythy]

my guess is that the assembly that attaches the wheel assembly to the chassis of the car failed. There's no sign of the wheel assembly from the photos, which means the wheel assembly flew off somewhere. this photo is the clearest photo I can find of an intamin train, showing a fully independent wheel assembly (as opposed to some B&M cars where there's a tie rod between the two wheel assemblies) - although this is a newer model train

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Stealth-Thorpe-4.jpg

 

One thing I can say, is the B&M wheel assemblies are far more beefier.

 

http://www.themeparkreview.com/parks/pimages/IAAPA_Trade_Show/2009_Convention_Photos_-_Las_Vegas/iaapa_hanno24.jpg

 

however, if it's a bolt or something that's failed due to fatigue, then that's a maintenance issue.

[Ed]

Whatever happened, at least the riders got spared the TRIMS.

[andyuk200523]

By the way, you don't really need to X-ray axles, track, etc. to see if there is fractures on them, you could also use ultrasound to do it (much like medical sonography). It's a much more portable technology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasonic_testing

 

This is exactly what my wife does on a daily basis (obviously not at Theme Parks, that would be very interesting!)

[AnEscapeArtist]

Regardless if maintenance or Intamin is at fault, something must have gone seriously wrong as the wheel assemblies should NEVER come off the track like that. I can understand companies with not much experience, but this is Intamin we're talking about here, imagine if something like this happened on TTD, or i305? You'd probably have a full train of dead people. Intamin and the riders are VERY lucky they were on the upcrest of the hill where they were going slower than full speed, because something like this at the end of the drop would just crunch the cars together and there would probably have been fatality's.

 

Whether this is Intamin's fault or the parks, you can't ignore the fact that A LOT of recent incidents have had the name INTAMIN associated with them, while B&M's record remains crystal clear. That can't be good for business.

[robbalvey]

^ I really just wanted to delete your post since it's such an obvious Anti-Intamin rant and flame bait. But I decided to leave it and hope other people will also see your lack of any knowledge of the theme park industry, engineering, roller coaster manufacturers or any sort of constructive contribution to this discussion in your post that I do.

 

--Robb "Nice try..." Alvey

Edited April 30, 2010 by robbalvey

[DJeXeL]

Other than the lift cable incident this past year and this recent incident, has Expedition GeForce had any other major issues?

[GeorgeT]

Nope...